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!S2E3: Questions About the Rapture Pt. 2.mp3
Jeff: Welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast, I’m Jeff Kinley along with my good friend, Todd Hampson and we’re the Prophecy Pros. We’re bringing to you clarity, confidence and hope from the scriptures regarding Bible prophecy in the end times, because now more than ever, we need a word from God.
So many people right now, Todd are so confused, but at the same time, so curious about what’s happening in the world. And a lot of these questions are being geared towards the rapture. Maybe the bride of Christ is beginning to feel something here. Maybe there’s a stirring in our collective soul as Jesus’ bride. And we’re thinking about, is our bridegroom about to come back for us? So, we’re getting a lot of questions about that. And I think one of the biggest ones we talked about last time is, what about this partial rapture? Is that going to happen? And we addressed that. But here’s another question, Todd, that we can take a stab at here because a lot of people are looking at their small children and they’re going, “Whoa, wait a minute, what if the rapture came today? And what about my unborn child? I’ve got a daughter-in-law who’s pregnant right now. I’ve got some grandkids who are young. So, what about them? I mean, what are some thoughts there?” We might be able to shed a little bit of light on that subject.
Todd: Yeah, that’s a great connected question to that last one from the previous episode where we tackled this, and we actually got a really heartfelt question from a listener on that very topic. And you and I both believe in the scriptural evidence for this, that at the moment of the rapture, anyone, whether it’s a child born or unborn, or somebody who maybe mentally has not been able to understand the rapture, somebody with some special needs. But children who are innocent and don’t fully understand good and evil and what it means to become a Christian, you and I believe all of them will be taken in the rapture.
And we get precedent from this when David’s child with Bathsheba died once he stopped fasting and morning, they said, “Why are you not morning anymore now that the child… You mourned while he was alive, but now that he’s died, you’re not mourning.” And he said, “I know that one day I will go to him, but he will not be able to come to me.” So, that coupled with just what we know about God’s character of protecting the innocent and mercy and grace and everything about God’s character, you and I believe that every child who is under that age… And there’s no age of accountability, I think it’s different for each person, and I think God knows whether someone is mature enough to understand that, whether they’ve heard the gospel before or not, and that kind of thing. So, there’s some mystery to it, we can’t wrap our heads around it fully, but you and I both believe that children who are innocent and others who can’t understand the gospel will be taken in the rapture as well.
Jeff: Absolutely. And I think that also applies to those children who have been aborted, some 58 million children across the world who have been aborted, that God’s mercy… There’s nothing that God hates more than the shedding of innocent blood. And so, that obviously applies to them as well. Our God is a merciful God. He is a great and loving God, and I believe he’s going to account for all those children. And how God works all that out is beyond our understanding. It’s like Isaiah 55 says, “His thoughts are above our thoughts, his ways are above our ways.” So, I don’t pretend to figure out everything that God does, but certainly I am leaning on that promise that God’s love and care and his mercy will take care of those kids there. What about this, Todd, who’s going to hear this trumpet?
And let’s talk about the trumpet of God for a second, because I had a guy come up to me at a conference, I think you and I were both in this conference speaking, and he comes up to me and he leans into my ear, and of course, anytime that happens, I know there’s no telling what’s going to come out of this person’s mouth, but he leans into my ear and he says, “Hey,” he says, “Have you noticed that Donald Trump is in the Bible?” I was like, “What are you talking about?” He says, “Well, it says in 1st Corinthians 15:52, ‘At the last trump that’s when we’re going to be raptured.'” And I kind of looked at him like, “Is this a far side cartoon joke or something?” I’m like, “What are you saying?” Then he says, “Well, then his middle name is also John, and of course that’s John the Baptist was the forerunner to Jesus.”
So, I thought, “Well, do you have anything about his hair? That would also tell us that he’s also some sort of prophet,” kind of thing. But the way I responded to that, well, I want to talk about this trumpet here, I said, “Well, number one, that word trump is the King James translation of the word trumpet. So, he’s not Donald Trumpet, that kind of thing.” I said, “It’s an actual trumpet that’s actually going to be sounded at the rapture.” And I said, “If he’s the last trump, where was the first trump? The first Donald Trump kind of thing.” So, people try to find all sorts of little things to try to tie in what we call newspaper exegesis, or really eisegesis, which is reading in things into the Bible that aren’t even there. But let’s talk about this last trumpet, who’s going to hear this trumpet that we hear about the rapture?
Todd: That’s a great question. And this is something that I’ve studied and wrestled with, and we should mention that a lot of the questions we’re going to tackle today are a little more speculative, but not out of our own brains. We have scriptural reasons to approach them the way they are. But they’re also maybe not as clear as some of the other key things about the rapture. But personally, I wrestle with that, I don’t know if it’s going to be a situation where like Paul, when he was knocked off the horse, everyone else knew something else was going on, but he could hear it, but they couldn’t. Or if it’s going to be what I believe is the first trumpet, back in the Old Testament, the first time that God in Exodus 19, when he called them to give them the law and it says, “They heard the voice of a trumpet.”
So, I don’t know, I’m curious, what do you think, Jeff? Do you think the whole world will hear the trumpet or we’ll all hear it, but somehow like when Jesus said, “My sheep know me and they hear my voice,” maybe it’s a noise that everyone will hear, but only believers will realize what it actually is.
Jeff: Yeah. I mean, the Bible doesn’t specifically tell us in parenthesis, when Paul says, “Oh, and by the way only believers will hear the…” Kind of thing, because it just wasn’t an issue with them, that just wasn’t something they were thinking about. But over in 1st Thess 4:16, he says, “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God.” And then it says, the very next phrase, “And the dead in Christ will rise first.” So, presumably, the dead in Christ will hear this trumpet. In other words, their bodies that have long since decayed are going to respond to a voice, they’re going to respond to a trumpet sound. So, they’re going to hear it somehow, we also presume that those who… It said, next verse, “We who are alive and remain shall be caught up.” So, presumably we’re going to hear, I mean, why would we not hear the trumpet? I mean-
Todd: Yeah, I think we’ll hear it for sure.
Jeff: … So, the Old Testament, when the people of God were gathered together, they blew a trumpet for a gathering reasons, for the purpose of gathering. So, now as to whether or not the rest of the world is going to hear this trumpet, I would tend to say, no, and I don’t have a Bible verse that just says nobody else is going to hear this. We know in Revelation 1:7 when Jesus Christ returns physically, the second coming, it says, “Every eye will see him.” So, we know from that verse that, that’s going to be a global event in terms of just the visibility, but in terms of the audible here with the trumpet of God, I mean, Bible’s silent, but if they heard of the trumpet, how would that play into people’s reaction in the tribulation?Because you hear this when you read in beginning Revelation six, the judgments of God, sealed trumpet and bowl judgments, it says, “They know that these judgments are from God.” In fact, they began to blaspheme God and curse God because of his judgments. So, you could use that argument to say, well, they’re going to hear the trumpet, they’re going to know it’s the rapture and then they’re going to just be even more angry at God, kind of thing. On the other hand, which is where I’ve written about in the past and you have too, is that people will be more perplexed about the disappearance of who knows how many people on planet earth. And they’ll have to come up with speculative theories because they’ll have darkened minds and don’t understand the rapture.
Todd: Yeah.
Jeff: So, I tend to think that it’s going to be only believers, and in another passage here too, when you go back to Matthew chapter 25, and this is not talking about the rapture, I’ll be very clear about that, but it is talking about a wedding custom there in Matthew chapter 25 when the 10 virgins are getting ready. And it says here, “But at midnight,” in verse six, “There was a shout, ‘Behold the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'” So, we know that, that voice was directed only at a specific group of people. So, it was to announce that the bridegroom had come to snatch away his bride. Well, I think that’s the same thing we’re seeing in 1st Thess four, is that, that shout, that voice, the archangel, that trumpet of God, if I were a betting man, I would bet on that, that voice and that trumpet only being heard by believers. So, that might be a long answer for a short question, but yeah.
Todd: No, that was good. And I do believe that we’re the bride of Christ and I believe the rapture is that moment when the bridegroom comes. So, maybe that shout will be, “Come forth, the bridegroom’s here.”
Jeff: Yeah, yeah.
Todd: Or a combination of that, and like for the dead in Christ, when Jesus told Lazarus, “Come forth,” so maybe it’s going to be kind of a dual shout, because he’s raising the dead and he’s calling the bride to come be with him. And actually that lines up perfectly with the Jewish wedding traditions, lines up perfectly with the first and second coming and him… And that kind of ties back into another question we talked about, just we hit on it on the last episode, in that, some people thinking that you have to go through the tribulation. And what I didn’t get a chance to mention in that last one was, when I say, well, why would God want us to go through the tribulation? The key reason that I hear people say is, so he can purify his bride.
And again, that just does not line up with a loving God. What kind of loving God is going to ask a woman to marry him, go away, build a beautiful house for her, wait for his father to send him to go pick her up, but then before he takes her back home, he puts her in an alley and lets her get beat up for seven days. It just does not line up at all with God’s character or Jewish wedding traditions, which Jesus himself refers to many times. So, I wanted to be sure I mentioned that.
Jeff: No, that’s a great point, Todd, because it’s worth camping off just a second, because I think that people confuse, you to talk about purifying the bride, yes, we are purified through persecution and we’re purified through tribulation and trouble and martyrdom and that type of thing, but we’re not purified through punishment from God-
Todd: That’s right.
Jeff: … Through God’s wrath, that’s not the purpose of God preparing his bride is to punish her. So, there’s a difference between purification of the bride and punishment of the bride. And of course, Jesus has no punishment for the bride. So, we’re to be prepared, we are to be purified, 1st John 3:2 says, “Be ready, so we don’t shrink back at his coming,” but at the same time, we’re not waiting on God to just simply hammer us through the tribulation for some reason, to put his anger on us in order to make us ready for the return of Christ. So, that’s a great question.
Todd: Now, we get into some little more, even more peripheral, but interesting questions that we’ve received before. So, here’s one; will the resurrection affect things physically? For example, when Jesus at the cross, we find that some of the tombs of the Old Testament believers burst open and some people were raised from the dead and walked around for a period of time. In other words, are the dead going to just kind of float through the dirt and then transform? Or are they literally going to burst out of their tombs, so to speak?
Jeff: I vote for bursting. That’s what I learn-
Todd: Me too, man. That’d be epic.
Jeff: Yeah. I think the rapture is going to be a dramatic event. You’ve got all these movies that have portrayed the rapture and clothes just dropping and that kind of thing for people who are alive. And I don’t know if it’s going to happen like that or not, but I know this, that when people came out of their tombs, not in the same way at the rapture, when people came out of their tombs when Christ was crucified on the cross when he died and when Lazarus came out… Anytime someone burst out of a grave, it’s a dramatic event.
So, in my way of thinking, I think that it’s going to be big or small, I mean, obviously people who are in the grave and the ocean that’s not going to make a big deal, big splash if you will, but at the same time people coming out of these tombs, people rising, coming out of coffins at funerals, I mean, whatever across the world, because thousands of thousands of people die every day and many of them are in Christ. So yeah, I tend to think that it’s going to be a physically changing event for graveyards all across the world.
Todd: And that links to another topic, and this is an argument I hear sometime, is that people say that pre-trib folks believe in a secret rapture, there is going to be nothing secret about this. It’s going to be the domino that affects everything and puts all and turn things in a motion. And we also read in scripture that there’s going to be a strong delusion, that people will believe the lie-
Jeff: Yeah.
Todd: … And we don’t know exactly what that is, but I tend to believe the lie will have to do with the explanation for the rapture. And also Jesus is the truth, maybe the Antichrist is kind of personified lie, he’s the lie.
Jeff: Yes.
Todd: So, somehow he’ll be tied to this answer, whether it’s aliens or some evolutionary thing that just the earth absorbed everybody, there’s all kinds of weird theories out there that actually those involved in the occult and new age teaching are already saying that already the groundwork being laid for excuses for why the rapture will happen. And like you mentioned, it will be a global supernatural event. So, everything is going to change. You think COVID-19 changed earth on a dime, wait until the rapture, everything’s going to change. And there’s going to be a big lie about why the rapture occurred.
Jeff: Well, that’s very true. And I talk about some of these potential scenarios in my book, Interview with the Antichrist because obviously the rapture has occurred when the Antichrist is coming on the scene. But if you think about it, Todd, some countries will be more effected by the rapture than other countries. I mean, you think about countries like Albania or Slovakia or some other countries that are… I mean, even North Korea, even though they’ve got a lot of Christians there, I mean, they’re going to be less affected. And think about in the times in which we live right now, just in terms from a technological standpoint, when that explosion happened in Beirut last week, I mean, within minutes the entire world knew about it. Everybody knew about it. I mean, there were videos from everywhere and then there were posting and re-sharing and tweeting and all this stuff.
And guess what? I opened up my Twitter feed this morning and started scrolling through things and it’s dying. It’s dying in the news. Now, there are other theories coming off of it and stuff, but that’s the way we are today. The whole world has this sort of ADD problem with the news. I mean, something huge can happen, an event and we’ll be fixated on it for 24 hours, and then we just forget it, move on. And to a certain degree, I wonder if when the rapture occurs, there’s going to be this initial shockwave, just like that bomb in Beirut, there is going to be a shockwave, and then after that, it’s just going to be, people are going to start going back to other things because pretty soon after that, at some point, whether it’s weeks or months, the Antichrist is going to sign this peace treaty, and maybe even through that delusion get people’s minds off of the catastrophic chaos that ensued following the rapture.And again, some countries more than others, but a part of that delusion, it says in 2nd Thessalonians chapter two, verse 10, “With all the deception of wickedness that the Antichrist will have.” So, he is going to have the power to… And that’s what a great magician, a great illusionist does, he misdirects, he misdirects. And so he’s able to get their eyes on something else, and this is going to be peace and safety so that they’re not thinking about the cataclysmic chaos that’s just taken place in the world. And then of course, as you say, there’s going to be people coming up with all sorts of explanations.And we may say, “Well, people aren’t going to believe that aliens really kind of… People aren’t going to believe all this stuff, theories of why the rapture occurred.” People that are under a great delusion will believe anything. And they’ll be grasping at any solution that gives them a sense of comfort or hope or explanation or whatever it might be, and so don’t be surprised. I mean, 10 years ago, we would’ve never said that people would be believing the kind of things they’re believing and acting the way they are today-
Todd: Yeah.
Jeff: … So, don’t limit the depravity and the deception of the human heart when it comes to the rapture, there’s going to be all sorts of deceptions that’s going to accompany that.
Todd: Yeah, exactly. I agree. All right. And how about this one? What about people… Because we read about 144,000 Jewish witnesses, we read about the two witnesses in Jerusalem preaching the gospel, and we read about, even in the first set of judgements that there’s going to be great martyrdom. So, in other words, after the church has gone, there’ll be tons of people saved. Now, what happens to them? I’ve heard some people say, when somebody gets saved, they’re immediately raptured. I guess that’s kind of a popcorn rapture, I don’t know what you call that-
Jeff: Yeah, yeah.
Todd: … But have you heard that before? And what does scripture say about when someone is saved in the tribulation period?
Jeff: Yeah. In fact, I had a question, someone walked up to me at church a couple of weeks ago and just said, “What happens to believers in the tribulation? Do they kind of get in on the second wave of the rapture kind of thing?” And just to say what scripture says is that there’s only one rapture, there’s only one time where Jesus returns for his bride, takes her up to heaven and we’re there during the tribulation period. So, there’s only one rapture. So, we know from Revelation that what happens after the rapture is that believers begin to be persecuted. And presumably before the Antichrist even enters the temple and inaugurates 666, and that global mass murder of Christians, because we read in Revelation 6:9, he talks about the souls who had been slain because of the word of God, because of the testimony which they had maintained.
And so their blood was spilt here in the early parts of the tribulation and Todd, here’s what I think. Right now, Christians are being persecuted in well over 60 or 70 countries across the world actively right now. Brothers and sisters are dying from every single method you could possibly imagine, everything from being burned, to being raped and dismembered, to being crucified, to being beheaded. So, persecution is happening right now all across the world, believers are dying every day. However, we’ve been sort of insulated from that in America because of our Judeo-Christian roots and because of the restraining influence of the holy spirit through the church, but persecution is heating up in America. You can feel the hatred beginning to really reach our shores, and it’s coming really from within, not really from without, it’s coming from within our own country.
So, as that begins to ramp up, as we get closer to revelation, I think after the rapture happens, there’s going to be no one to hold back that hatred. And so anyone who will pop up to be a Christian, because guess what? The chaos that comes to the earth really comes as a result of the rapture.
Todd: Yep.
Jeff: And so all of the things that are going to implode from within and governments that are going to collapse, and the moral lawlessness is going to be increased. People are going to need to blame somebody, they always do. It’s usually the Jews who they blame for calamity. In fact, the Jews have been blamed for the COVID virus and everything else, but Christians, people are going to pop up and say, “Oh, I believe in Jesus Christ,” those people are also going to be blamed. And so it’s going to turn against believers.
So, I think that what’s going to happen is that they’re going to be believers that are going to be martyred by other people in the world. And then at the mid point of the tribulation, it’s going to be official, it’s going to be governmental, it’s going to be global. And the Antichrist is going to inact a global murder campaign on Christians because not one Christian will receive the mark of the beast. And we know that from Revelation chapter 20 verses four and five. So, I think that there is going to come that persecution and it’s going to happen to believers in the end times, but there’s no indication that they’re going to be raptured, they’re going to be beheaded and they’re going to suffer martyrdom for which they’ll receive great reward. But yeah, it’s not good times if you become a Christian in the end times.
Todd: Absolutely. And that’s why there should be such an impetus on us now to reach people for Christ-
Jeff: Yep.
Todd: … And especially as we see the tribulation era casting a shadow on us now. Of course, we don’t know the day or the hour, but you just look around the world and you can… Like you said, even non-believers are feeling it. You and I have talked to people involved in international ministry and we’ve asked them, what’s the sense of the church around the world and every sound voice that we’ve talked to says, the sense is that the Lord’s return is soon. So, as you’ve mentioned before, we plant a tree, we plan as if it’s not going to happen in our lifetime, but we’re seeing a lot of signs that point to his soon return.Jeff: And Todd, I would just say this, as we close this thing out, I’m want to let you take us home here. But here’s the deal, when Noah was building the arch, it had not rained in the sky. And why in the world would you build a boat that big for this rain stuff, this judgment that you say is going to come? Noah must have looked like the biggest fool on the planet.
Todd: Yeah.
Jeff: I mean, talk about people questioning your sanity and making fun of you and that type of thing. And nowadays they can do it all across the world through social media. The Christians that talk about the tribulation period, they talk about Antichrist, they talk about the rapture, it really does sound it’s just some sort of apocalyptic fairy tale and scare tactic to get people into the kingdom. But in reality, it’s the same thing that Noah was doing. Noah was just simply telling people, “Repent because God is coming to judge sin.” And that’s our message. And Jesus is the hope, just like the door to the arc was the way to salvation, Jesus is the door, he’s the arch and that’s where we’re pointing people. That’s where we want our listeners to point people. It’s not just about, hey, just repent for the sake of repentance, it’s no, run to Christ, bow before Jesus Christ, receive that forgiveness and that guaranteed ticket of being raptured should these things happen in the next several years.
I mean, we’ll be there to be ready as the bride of Christ to be raptured by him. So, even though it sounds like you’re crazy and no one’s talking about this and people are going, “Where’s the sign of his coming? What’s going on? Where are these things going to happen?” Well, you’re able to point them to scripture, to some of the prophecies that are in formation right now, but more than anything else, more than just being prophetically astute is pointing them to Jesus and salvation. That’s the main thing.
Todd: Amen. And just to piggyback off of that before I land the plane, even though we sound crazy now saying… And I admit it is crazy to say God is going to take all Christians out of here in an instant. We’ve never seen that before. There’s no scientific basis to point to that, that’s happened before, but we do have an incredible amount of fulfilled Bible prophecy that proves that God does what he says he’s going to do. And he’s done that over and over and again, so we can trust him implicitly and everything that he said is going to happen in the future I guarantee you it’s going to happen. As a matter of fact, as Jeff alluded to some of the prophecies that are in formation today are more accurate than last week’s newspaper. I mean, everything going on in Syria with Russia and Iran and Turkey forming an alliance north of Israel’s border, Ezekiel 38.
So, many other things related to the Middle East and everything that the Bible said would happen in the end times is forming right now in our day, exactly like the Bible said it would happen. Man, time went by so fast. Again, we still had several questions that we didn’t get to, maybe season three we’ll tackle it again, because it’s a popular topic. But if you have any questions about the rapture or anything else, please go to prophecyprospodcast.com. There’s a place on there where you can ask Jeff and I questions. Those will go immediately to Jeff and myself and we’ll answer them as soon as we possibly can.Again, that’s the prophecyprospodcast.com. And also there, you can find out about Jeff’s books, about my books and about our ministries and about a lot of other stuff. And as always, we want to give a big thank you to Harvest House Publishers who makes this possible. And we love partnering with them, they’re a great organization, a great publishing company, and they stand for truth. And we just thank them for partnering with us in such an important way. So, until next time, we’ll see you again on the Prophecy Pros podcast.
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