vault backup: 2023-10-22 18:20:03
Affected files: Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/BONUS COVID-19 and the End Times.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E10: Billy Hallowell: Media, Prophecy, and Journalism.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E11: Lessons From a 2,600-Year-Old Prophecy.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E12: Amir Tsarfati: Israel, World Deception, and The Day Approaching.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E13: Dr. Tony Evans: A Crisis of Leadership and Hope in Prophecy.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E1: Who Are the “Prophecy Pros?”.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E2: The Relevancy of Bible Prophecy.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E3: Hollywood’s Obsession with the Apocalypse.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E4: Phil Cooke – Prophecy, Culture and Hollywood.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E5: Rapture – God’s Special Ops Extraction.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E6: What Happens at the Rapture?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E7: What’s the Big Deal with Israel?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E8: Dillon Burroughs – Purpose of a Watchman.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 1/S1E9: Are we living in the days of Noah?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/BONUS: Todd Interviews Jeff about God’s Grand Finale.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E10: How to Interpret Bible Prophecy.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E11: Q&A: More Questions Answered.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E12: AI and the End Times.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E1: How Bad Will It Get Before the Rapture?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E2: Contending for the Faith in the Last Days.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E3: The Phenomenon of Prophetic Hunger in the Last Days.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E4: Discovering God in Revelation.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E5: Q&A: You Asked, We Answered.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E6: Five Ways to Introduce Bible Prophecy in Your Church.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E7: Five Compelling Reasons Pastors Should Teach Prophecy.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E8: The Revived Roman Empire with Guest Steve Miller.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 10/S10E9: Spiritual Warfare in the Last Days.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 11/BONUS: All Eyes on Israel.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 11/BONUS: The Non-Prophet’s Guide to the Book of Daniel.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 11/S11E1: Why Should We Care about Daniel?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 11/S11E2: Q&A – Answers to Your Questions.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 11/S11E3: Why Is Antisemitism Being Normalized? With Guest Olivier Melnick.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 11/S11E4: How Close Are We?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 11/S11E5: Your Bright Future in Christ: The Hope of Every Believer in the Last Days.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 11/S11E6: What Did the Early Church Believe about the Rapture?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E10: Ron Rhodes: A Conversation with a Real Prophecy Pro.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E11: Where is America in Bible Prophecy?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E12: Olivier Melnick: Global Anti-Semitism and God’s Plan for Israel.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E13: Is the Kingdom Here Now or Yet to Come?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E1: Questions About the Rapture Pt. 1.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E2: Jan Markell: Globalism, Lawlessness, and Delusional Thinking.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E3: Questions About the Rapture Pt. 2.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E4: Donna VanLiere: The End Times and The Younger Generation.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E5: Living with Hope and Joy… Even Now!.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E6: Tom Hughes: The Church and the Last Days.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E7: Convergence: Piecing Together the Puzzle.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E8: Spiritual Warfare in the End Times.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 2/S2E9: Technology of the Tribulation.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/BONUS: Aftershocks.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/BONUS: Ozark Mountain Prophecy Summit Recap.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E10: Billy Hallowell: Spiritual Warfare and the Demonic.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E11: When the Bride Falls Asleep.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E12: Don Perkins: Understanding the End-Time Message.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E13: Sin, Discipleship, and the Rapture.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E1: Masks, Lockdowns, Social Distancing, and the Gospel.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E2: COVID Vaccines and the End Times?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E3: Politics, Elections, and Bible Prophecy.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E4: Jonathan Evans: Being on the Winning Team.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E5: Globalism and the Great Reset.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E6: Olivier Melnick: The Church and the Chosen People.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E7: Wait Jesus! Don’t Come Just Yet!.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E8: Erwin Lutzer: Speaking Up and the Price of Faithfulness.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/S3E9: Spiritual Warfare and End-Time Deception.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 3/TRAILER: Prophecy Pros Podcast Season 3.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E10: Clearing the Confusion.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E11: Fear Factor.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E12: Final Great Awakening.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E1: Back to Basics.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E2: What is Premillennialism?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E3: Life in the Millennial Kingdom.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E4: What is the New Jerusalem?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E5: Tim Moore: Heeding the Word of God.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E6: Will Heaven Be Boring?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E7: Christian R&R (Rapture & Return).md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E8: Erwin Lutzer: Pastors, Prophecy, and Perspective.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 4/S4E9: Living Courageously During Difficult Times.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E10: Revelation Pt. 6: The Literal Return of the King.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E11: Revelation Pt. 7: Your Future Home in Heaven.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E12: What is the Last Trumpet?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E1: Gauging the Times.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E2: Why Hasn’t the Lord Come Yet?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E3: Michele Bachmann: Living and Leading in the Day of Delusion.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E4: You Are Not Alone.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E5: Revelation Pt. 1.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E6: Revelation Pt. 2.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E7: Revelation Pt. 3: The Antichrist and the False Prophet.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E8: Revelation Pt. 4: The Bowl Judgments.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 5/S5E9: Revelation Pt. 5: A Sneak Peek at Antichrist’s Headquarters.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E10: Jesus on the Apocalypse Pt. 1.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E11: Jesus on the Apocalypse Pt. 2.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E12: Jesus on the Apocalypse Pt. 3.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E1: Why Do Most Churches Avoid Teaching Prophecy?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E2: Does It Really Matter If I Have a View on Bible Prophecy?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E3: Presenting the Gospel Through Prophecy.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E4: Nathan Jones: The Mighty Angels of Revelation.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E5: Russia and Bible Prophecy.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E6: Donna VanLiere: Daniel’s Final Week.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E7: Amir Tsarfati: An Insider’s View of Prophecy and Israel.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E8: Persecution and Martyrdom in the Last Days.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 6/S6E9: Doug Hershey: Jerusalem Rising.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E10: Is it the Land of Israel or Palestine? with Guest Olivier Melnick.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E11: All Israel Saved?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E12: What is the Basic Order of End-Time Events?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E1: The Restrainer.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E2: Are There Modern-Day Prophets?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E3: Globalism: What We Need to Know with Guest Steve Miller.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E4: Did the Church Replace Israel? Part 1.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E5: Did the Church Replace Israel? Part 2.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E6: Encouragement for the Weary.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E7: Is the Timing of the Rapture Really That Important?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E8: Five Minutes After the Rapture.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 7/S7E9: How Is the Great Reset Connected to Bible Prophecy?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/Christmas and the Secret Hanukkah Connection with Guest Olivier Melnick.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E10: Thirty Seconds After the Rapture.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E11: Thirty Seconds After the Return of the Lord.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E12: Why Is There a Sudden Interest in Bible Prophecy?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E1: Is the Rapture and Return of Christ the Same Event?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E2: Q&A: Your Burning Questions Answered.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E3: How Does Prophecy Shape Our View of the Bible, the Future, and God?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E4: Who Are the Ten Kings?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E5: Globalism and the End Times with Guest Mark Hitchcock.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E6: Red Heifers and Rosh Hashanah.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E7: Practical Living in the Last Days with Guest Jack Hibbs.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E8: Q&A: More Questions Answered!.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 8/S8E9: Is the Spirit of Antichrist Rising in the World?.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E10: Daniel: Antichrist First Revealed.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E11: Daniel: Mind-blowing Historical Prophecies You Probably Never Heard Of.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E12: Q&A: Tackling Audience Questions.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E1: Prophecy Myths Busted.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E2: Q&A: Your Burning Questions Answered.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E3: Daniel: The Last Days.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E4: Is the Belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture a “New Thing?” with guest Dr. Tommy Ice.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E5: Daniel: World History Told in Advance.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E6: Q&A: Your Burning Questions Answered… Again.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E7: Daniel: The All-Important “Seventy Weeks” Prophecy.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E8: Understanding the Millennial Kingdom with Guest Dr. Andy Woods.md Podcasts/Prophecy Pros/Season 9/S9E9: Daniel: The All-Important “Seventy Weeks” Prophecy…Continued.md
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![[S1E10: Billy Hallowell: Media, Prophecy, and Journalism.mp3]]
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Todd: Welcome to the Prophecy Pros Podcast. I’m so thrilled today. We have one of our guests that we’re interviewing today and Jeff’s going to tell you all about him.
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Jeff: Todd, I’m so excited for this guest. A friend of ours, Billy Hallowell.
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Todd: Yes.
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Jeff: And you’ve probably seen Billy’s work. You may not know his face, although he’s got a pretty good face, it’s not bad. But, Billy Hallowell is a journalist, he is a commentator, a digital TV host. He has covered thousands of the biggest faith stories and culture stories in the world, really. He’s written over 12,000 articles on faith, on culture, on politics. He’s interviewed hundreds upon hundreds of celebrities, authors, influencers and he’s also the author of three books. I want to talk to him about one of his books today, called The Armageddon Code. But, Billy currently is the Director of Communications at PureFlix. It’s the…
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Todd: I’ve heard of that.
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Jeff: Yeah. It’s a Christian alternative to Netflix. But, the most important thing about Billy is, that he really has his finger on the pulse of American culture, specifically how Christians interact with that culture. And obviously, he has a very keen interest in Bible prophecy, which is why we’ve dubbed him an honorary Prophecy Pro for this podcast. So, why don’t we get started?
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Jeff: Billy Hallowell, great to have you on the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
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Billy: It’s great to be here.
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Jeff: Absolutely. You know we’ve been friends for six years, digitally speaking.
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Billy: It may even be longer than that.
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Jeff: I know.
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Billy: I was trying to figure it out because I was like, it’s at least six years because that’s when I interviewed you for your book.
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Jeff: Yeah.
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Billy: Maybe like eight, I don’t even know. Seven, eight years.
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Jeff: It’s ridiculous, yeah.
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Billy: A long time but we never met until now.
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Jeff: Yeah.
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Billy: Now.
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Jeff: Until right now, this moment. We are friends, officially. But it’s great to have you on the show. And thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule. You are a man, you’re like a Swiss army knife. You can do so many things well, and you’re out there in culture making an impact. Tell us a little bit about, first of all, a little bit about your spiritual journey, about how you came to Christ, and where that led you.Billy: Yeah. It’s crazy because I really, if I’m being honest, I really felt for the majority of the first 22 years of my life, I just did what my parents did, went to church and I made a lot of mistakes. Because I think when you do the whole nominal Christian thing, listen, it’s not bad to grow, it’s good to grow up in a Christian home. So I want to clarify this before I say what I’m going to say.
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Jeff: Right.
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Billy: But I think you take it for granted. And that’s what I did. I took it for granted. And when I went through college in New York City, it was the first time I was away from home. I’m in a city where nobody agrees with me. I’m at a school that’s supposed to have a faith bend but really kind of didn’t. And it really shook me and I made a lot of mistakes and errors there. And then I came out of that and I really had to say, is my faith my own? Do I believe this? Is this real? That’s when that really started for me.
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Billy: And then it took another 10 years until I hit about 30-
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Jeff: It’s a process.
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Billy: And still I’m kind of a mess. But you get to a point where you really know it’s true and you believe it. And so that’s a quick, but I grew up in a Christian home. My parents were great. They took me to church every week.
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Jeff: How did you get interested in Bible prophecy, and how did that impact your life?
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Billy: These topics, it’s funny, I was working at theblaze.com. I was the faith editor there and we would try to cover unique, interesting things. One of the first things was your book, Jeff, that came up and just looking through that lens of, okay, there’s a topic out there that people don’t know a lot about. Maybe because churches aren’t maybe talking about it. There’s a lot of topics like that, right, demons and end times, you can go down the list. And so I wanted to try to cover those things to help people understand what the discussion is. And so when a film would come out, like The Conjuring, we would do an explainer on that. But with the end times, I just started becoming concerned that maybe people don’t know because it’s not being discussed. So yeah, that’s how we kind of dove into it. And then over time that interest increases because you realize the problem is bigger than maybe you thought it was.
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Jeff: Right. That feeds right into why we’re doing this podcast. We’re trying to reach an audience that maybe has never … knows it’s out there, but they’ve never really intersected with it, never studied it. They think that it’s off limits or too complicated or too scary. So we’re trying to break down some of those barriers and show them, if you even take the courage to step into the space and start studying it, it’s going to be like you have on new goggles, you see the world through a new lens and you’re going to be more and more interested in the topic as you get into it. Is that kind of what you found?
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Billy: Yeah, no and I think people, the word, weird, comes to mind. You know, these topics to people, because we’re so material, I feel like culture is so material right now it’s getting worse. Were everything in front of us is all we see and Christians are just as bad. I mean, we just buy into that cultural lie and so then we don’t want to talk about anything, but yet the New Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Testament. And we were talking about this the other day, Jeff, just like you go through it and you’re like, how do you, you can’t deny this is a huge part of, what, 33% of the scripture is prophecy. And so to not have the discussion and there’s a debate and people are going to debate every piece of that puzzle. But that’s where I kind of approached it. Okay, let’s have the debate, right? So I’m going to go to all these different people who believe different things and I’m going to say, “What do you believe about the rapture? What do you believe?” And at least start that conversation.
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Jeff: So who were some of the people that you interviewed in this book? Besides myself?
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Billy: I was going to say you, you were great. But it was Tim LaHaye’s last interview before he died. And so that was really interesting. And he was, talking with him, he was still pretty sharp and I forgot, he was in his nineties when we did the interview. But to be able to kind of pick his brain, because he’s had such an impact. Hank Hanegraaff, I always butcher his last name. Sorry, Hank. And Greg Laurie. So we had a lot of people, Doug Wilson, there were a lot of different perspectives in that mix. And that was the goal. Let’s get different perspectives, let’s try to understand.
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Billy: But I was saying the other day to you, Jeff, about the rapture, the rapture was the thing that enraged people the most. So you’d just be having an interview talking about it and it’s like, “What do you think about the rapture?”
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Jeff: Dropping a bomb.
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Billy: Yeah. I mean it was like wow. And it really was more of the people who doubted the rapture that would be so angry about the fact that people believed in it. And so that, and I don’t mean that to disparage those people, I just found it interesting because it’s not a salvation issue, but it’s an important issue to talk about.
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Jeff: Absolutely.
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Billy: Right?
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Jeff: Yeah.
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Jeff: I think that’s a really astute observation and something that we’ve seen and other prophecy teachers that we know have seen is that people who do believe in the rapture, especially people like us who believe, pre-trib rapture’s really clear in scripture, but we’re not mean to any other. The Bible says, “They will know me by how you love one another.” The church is supposed to be accepting and not dividing over secondary issues, as important as this issue is, so that’s our heartbeat. But that’s what we have seen as well is that people that don’t agree with the pre-trib rapture or don’t believe there is a rapture, which that just blows my mind because you got to read scripture and it says there’s a rapture.
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Billy: Right.
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Jeff: It’s clear there’s a rapture even though its-
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Billy: How do you walk away? And that’s the thing, but to be angry about it or to have this dividing factor of, it’s almost like they’re assaulting a scripture. That was the tone. And so that really stuck out to me in writing about it. And again, I’m not the expert. I always approach topics and say I’m not the expert. I just like to talk to people who are, and then to pull those thoughts together because I think we don’t get an opportunity to hear things that way.
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Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. I was at a church in Detroit on a Sunday morning, get ready to do my last message. It was on the rapture. Literally minutes before I got up to speak, the pastor leans over says, “Oh, just so you know, there’s lots of people in our church that don’t believe in the rapture.” Thanks for the heads-up.
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Billy: Thanks for letting me know.
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Jeff: I just kind of jokingly leaned over to him. I said, “They will in about 30 minutes, so don’t worry. I won’t insult them or anything like that.” But Billy, you’ve had a lot of chances to do a lot of travel, interview lots of people. I’m sure that some of those interviews really kind of stand out in your mind in terms of impact and stuff. Who were some of the people that you’ve interviewed that you think are making a real impact in the world today for Christ?
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Billy: That’s such an interesting question because it’s one of those things where you go through the Rolodex. You’re trying to think, who have I talked to recently? But if somebody who comes to mind and it’s not it really in the theology world, Candace Cameron Bray, who’s an actress, right? She’s on Fuller House. And I look at people like that and I’m really intrigued by people who can step into a difficult place and maintain themselves in it. She hosted The View. She’s done these things and I went to see her at The View and I’ve watched it and I’m like, wow, she hasn’t compromised herself. She hasn’t gone the wrong way. And she’s consistently treated people well.
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Jeff: With respect.
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Billy: And that’s the lesson for me because Hollywood’s a tough place to be a Christian and she’s just who she is and she’s been very successful. So yeah, there’s people like that. Ben Carson was a great interview and I went down HUD and actually did the interview there. And it was really his backstory. I mean, we hear these stories, I hadn’t heard the details of what it was like to grow up in poverty. And here he is running HUD. And not everybody likes Ben Carson. I like him.
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Jeff: He’s a great guy.
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Billy: But when you look at that story and you look at what God does with somebody’s life. And a lot of the interviews that I’ve gotten to do are random people who don’t have massive platforms, but have gone through crazy stories of transformation and they were about to take their own lives and something spoke to them in that last second and God reached them. So I just love telling people’s stories.Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. Well, because of your exposure to not just Christian culture, but culture as a whole, what are you seeing out there in terms of people’s fear? I mean is there a sort of a reoccurring refrain in people’s lives today about the uncertainty of our times and that type of thing? Are you getting a feel of that?
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Billy: Yes. I think the thing that seems to be shining through the most to me is that there’s a disconnect. I think we all know this and there’s an increasing disconnect because you’ve got Hollywood, you’ve got media, you’ve got universities, really all of education, but we’ll just say universities right now. That’s where we learn. So if we’re not in church, that is literally where we’re getting our information, right? And maybe our family, but they’re getting it from those three areas, if they’re not going to church. So all of those are dominated right now by secular anti-Christian, and when I say anti-Christian, sometimes overtly, sometimes just the lack of presence of Christians. We’re talking about Candice Cameron. There’s one actress we can think of, probably off the top of our head, who is kind of living the right way in mainstream. So all of that, I think, has just incubated this disconnect from faith. Generation Z, the most disconnected generation, suicide rates through the roof, drug overdose rates through the roof.
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Billy: Millennials, which I’m on the elderly end of, also a disaster, but not as big of a disaster as Generation Z, which is really sad. So it feels like there’s a hopelessness and then everybody’s panicking, global warming. You listen to these talking points, the world’s going to come to an end. Well maybe not the way you think it is, but yes. So there’s a sense that something is wrong, but there’s a void, so this all sounds negative. I do think we can fill that void if we do it the right way.
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Jeff: Absolutely.
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Todd: And I’d say that’s what we’re trying to do with this podcast and our resources is talk about the elephant in the room. Address that pain point, that the further our culture and generationally drifts away from biblical truth, the more hopeless they become, the more they latch onto other things and the more fearful they become when they see crazy things in the world and we’re like screaming at the top of our lungs, please listen to us. We have the answer. Bible prophecy tells us what’s going to happen. You know, this is such a rich space. So as you’ve come across different people, what are some ways people like us and yourself, how can we address that and how can we connect with those audiences in a fresh way that they can relate to?
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Yeah, I think that’s such a good question. The one thing that I’ve seen really resonate are people’s stories. That’s the thing. And I see it on social media the way people react, a lot of people follow me who don’t agree with me and I don’t know why, but I think it’s great.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: You’re a likable guy.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: So maybe, I don’t know. I don’t know. You can ask my wife, she’ll say, sometimes he’s a [crosstalk] so they’ll follow me and they’ll respond and people will reach out. Every once in a while, somebody who’s far left politically or you know, an atheist, they’ll reach out and they’ll say to me, “You know, I don’t agree with you, but I appreciate the way …” and it’s convicting to me because there’s times I don’t do the right thing on social. And I’m like, you know what, I really need to do the right thing because showing love and kindness and truth, not just love and kindness, but truth to people and then telling people’s stories of transformation.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Those are the two things that really hit people because they wonder, well why was that? Why did that porn star leave porn and become a pastor’s wife? You know, why did … you want to know. And we know why. We know the answer to that, but they don’t understand that. So telling the story leads them to it. And I don’t know if that’s the [crosstalk 00:12:42].
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s fantastic. No, I mean we’re just, we kind of ask a lot of people that question to get their different take because we’re trying to figure that out. And I think that resonates. People love story. People love personal stories, they love real stories of personal transformation and are just intrigued by that. So that’s a good, and we had other interviews today where we talked about a key theme of just relationship and building relationships with people and the importance of that before we come at them with guns blazing about the gospel.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: That’s the problem with Facebook. And honestly, it’s funny because I, we’re friends on Facebook. We’ve been for a long time. On my personal Facebook page, I try not to say a lot, but lately I’ve been saying more. And the reason is because it creates a divide with the people around me, my own family, who don’t agree with me on anything, who are now seeing the things that I think or I see my neighbor who sometimes post things that I’m like, is that what he really thinks about people like me?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Right.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: So that’s convicting to me and I struggle with it because I want to say things about issues. I try to stay on an issue or on a person, if it’s a candidate, it’s hard. It’s hard. I feel like I really have to watch myself on that because that’s where we lose that ground that we’re talking about, the relational ground. You can erase that in a second with a Facebook post.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Unintentionally.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. Yeah, true. And we’re in an election year, obviously right now. You’ve interviewed political figures, you’ve had a lot of-
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: I’ve interviewed Trump before, before he was president.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Really? Oh wow.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Which is weird. You know, you have these memories of interviews you did. I’ve interviewed Trump three times, two over the phone and one time-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Wow.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: One time in his office. Some strange things about Trump’s office. Do you want to know or is this … Why not? Well, Trump’s office did not have a computer or any technology on his desk. His desk was empty except for a paper. There’d be a paper in front of him and he would … a woman … this doesn’t even sound real. A woman would come out of a corner office, a secretary, and what I assume was happening is she was responding to emails and he was dictating them.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: I know he was dictating emails. Here’s what I want you to say. So he would stop the interview, hold on, put his finger up to stop me, and then he would say, okay, and he would dictate the email and then she would print emails out and bring them to him. He would read them and then dictate back. This happened two or three times during the course of like a 15 minute interview. I fascinated by it though. I actually thought it was really effective. I’m like, I want somebody to [crosstalk 00:14:55].
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Where’s my secretary?
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: No, it was actually a really interesting, it wasn’t a bad thing. And you know, when you interviewed Trump, he turns questions back on you. He’s really good and this is why I think Trump’s-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Sharper than people give him credit for.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Oh yeah, with the media, he knows exactly what he said. Anyway, so, and then the two times on the phone, really nice. I mean, he was really nice. It was a tough topic. I won’t go into what we were talking about, but it was tough topic. But the one thing about Trump, and I want to share this because I think this is not in defense or not in defense of Trump. Saeed Abedini had been detained in Iran, remember the pastor who was, he had been in prison for a while and Trump was very critical of the Obama administration’s handling of this. Now maybe Trump was thinking he was going to run for president. This is 2014, I don’t know, but Saeed’s wife had come to meet with Trump and I was supposed to be in that meeting to cover it. Now I missed her.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: I got there, she was gone. She got there early. So he said to me, “I gave her a $10,000 check to help her family.” He specifically said to me, “Please don’t report on that.” And it really stuck with me because I would assume that Trump would be shouting that from the rooftops that he gave this woman a $10,000 check. And you know, “Look how nice I am. I’m the best. I hire the best people and I gave her a $10,000 check.” He didn’t. He did the opposite of that. And it wasn’t until Saeed was released and he said, “Donald Trump gave us a $10,000 check.”, that that story got out. I thought, that’s a really, anyway, just an interesting thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: As wild as his hair and his mouth can be-
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: And his tweets.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And his tweets, the positions that he’s taken and some of the courageous things he’s done, just blow your mind. And we’ve talked, you know, we try to look past the political to the spiritual realm and look at life through the eyes of Bible prophecy. And it’s really interesting to see how God’s positioned several leaders in the past, 10, 15, 20 years to move the prophecy ball forward and how he’s using Donald Trump in some unique ways.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Jerusalem.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, oh my gosh.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I mean if he does nothing else, that will stand out in his legacy.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And that’s part of the discussion because people today are politically divided. I mean, you could almost just cut the cake down in the middle and you’d have people in this election year that were polarized. But how does that, you think, affect culture, our overall culture in America? And specifically how do you think it’s affecting Christians? Do you think we’re just, we’re blindly kind of following in a political affiliation or do you think we’re using discernment in this or what do you think is happening there in culture?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s a great question.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Oh, I think it’s incredibly toxic in every way. There’s so much there in what you just said, because I think what is happening is everything we’re doing, the media we watch, the people, we were only going to the side of what we agree with. You know, I go to Christian outlets because I want faith. I’m talking about politics and ideas and facts. Like what’s really happening. I have found myself often being like, I don’t know who to trust. I have to watch CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, and The Blaze. I have to go to The Blaze and I have to go.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And you’re a reporter, yourself.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Right. And I’m not trusting it. So if I’m not … and it’s not, it’s because our worldview, I think everyone’s taken a side. CNN has clearly taken a side, very clearly taken a side. Fox has always had their side. MSNBC has always had their side. And so now what is truth? And this goes into the whole conversation though we’ve lost loving God and loving others and culture. And so now the toxicity of this has seeped into everything. So now we don’t know what the truth is. We only go to the side we want, and we don’t love God and love others. That is a recipe for disaster. And that’s what I think we’re actually seeing play out.Billy: And I teach college kids, so I’m seeing it in how they don’t even, it’s not because they’re … they don’t even know what the other side is. They haven’t heard it. They haven’t even heard what a conservative in some areas of the country believe or they don’t even know. And so when you start to have these conversations about whether a baker should be forced to do something or whether anybody should be, for that matter, there’s a real confusion because they can’t even. So yeah, that’s a lot to say. I think we are probably in a dangerous spot when we remove faith and morals and then we all start to hate each other over everything.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Exactly.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: We can disagree and still love each other, or we should be able to.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And we should model that as believers, and Jeff and I talk about that quite often, that even in Bible prophecy circles, there are disagreements. They don’t get that heated. But what an opportunity for us to model how people are supposed to evaluate things and still respect each other and those examples are few and far between nowadays, which I believe is a sign of the times and a commentary on the deeper issue in the spiritual warfare that’s going on behind the scenes is humongous.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: It’s fueling. Can I add one more thing to this, because you had asked the other question about politics. And this is where I get really convicted because I vote, I’m a conservative and I’m an evangelical and I look at it all and I’m often the person who is annoying everybody. So the Never Trump people can’t stand me because I’m like, why would you be like … you can’t be that way. You can never just, I’m never going to support this person. And then the Trump can do no wrong people. Not because of anything to do with Trump. It has to do with us. If somebody tweets something awful, it shouldn’t matter whether they’re Republican or Democrat. We’re Christians, we should be able to say, “You shouldn’t call somebody a horse face. Probably not a nice thing to tweet.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Exactly.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: But the fact that when you respond and you say that and then you’re met with this, no, we’re Christians first and I really have struggled with that. That’s why I’m, this is convicting to me because I have often put being conservative first, and this goes for anybody on either side. Anyway, I just wanted to say that because I feel like it’s a struggle.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I think you’re right. I think on both sides of the political aisle, we kind of throw the baby out with the bath water. You know, it’s like we may like the somebody, if you do one thing that’s wrong, the other side’s going to demonize you until eternity kind of thing. But it really does speak to where our culture is right now. Politics is such a distraction, I think. But you know, you have the other side, Billy, where you know these programs where they interview people on the streets and say, “Who’s the vice president?” And they go, “I don’t know.” “What was the civil war fought over?” “I give up.” They don’t know these things. It’s just there’s a whole generation of people who just, they don’t have a clue as to what’s going on.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s happening in culture, but we see in the church Christians, the same thing with Bible prophecy and most Christians, I’m sure you’ve figured this out by now, they kind of have their view of the end times of sort of apocalyptic tidbits, almost like pieces of puzzle from different puzzles and they’re just putting them on the board, but none of it’s making sense to them. I think it was one of the things that your book, the Armageddon Code, really did well is that it just laid out in plain English, here’s what people believe. Here’s what the Bible says. And that’s what the Prophecy Pros Podcast is trying to do as well. Put it in simple language so they can take it home with them and live a better life, live a more confident, clear life for Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: What would you say to someone who’s like, what’s the best way I can with all these different views, where do I start? How can I start studying this for myself and what are some basic principles that will kind of help me speed that along?
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Yeah. I would say read Jeff’s books and I would also say-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I’ve got to pay you for that.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: That was why I wrote, I really wrote the book because, and a publisher came to me and asked if I was interested and then I came back with, I think this is the approach I would do. My interest is, I’m not an expert on this. You’re asking me to do something. I would go and … I wanted to create something that if you were clueless, completely didn’t know anything, that you could read it and understand the points. And I tried to not give any opinion on anything outside of Israel. I did give some opinions on Israel because Ezekiel is so wild to me. I just couldn’t, I mean, it’s insane. It’s a bit, I think it’s the biggest challenge to atheist. One of the biggest challenges of the Bible to atheists is Ezekiel 36 to 39 probably would be, but I wanted to create something that they could kind of look at. So I would say whether it’s my book or some resource where you can get a full view and then start to dig in and figure out what do you really believe. Because getting a view is great, but which one of those perspectives do you think the Bible backs? I think it’s kind of clear what the Bible backs. And you and you figure that out and you listen to podcasts.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And I love your approach because I’ll just use my own personal example. I was soft pre-trib, I don’t know other way to say it because of the Left Behind series and kind of what I grew up hearing. I became a Christian at age 13 but that was the first eschatological view I came into contact with. But honestly I didn’t really own it until I dove in. Just like you’re saying, and said, “Let me look at all the different views.” And the bottom line is, what does the Bible say? What does scripture support? And until I dove in and did that for myself, that’s when I really owned it and became way more passionate about it. So I’m hoping resources like your book and what Jeff and I are doing here will equip people to do that. We don’t want people to just accept our views. We don’t want people to just take what we say and run with it. We want you to check it out, be Bereans, dig in for yourself and figure out what it says. So I really appreciate your approach there. And your point of view from a reporter’s perspective, I think is phenomenal for this space.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It really is. And I think what you’re saying about culture, you have the people out there that, they have beliefs, which really is just their opinion. And yeah, people have informed beliefs, who do the research, who know what they believe, why they believe even about if you’re a Democrat or Republican, at least know why you believe that instead of just everyone else’s and their grandma. [crosstalk] or whatever, you know kind of thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: If you don’t know the other side, if you don’t know what they believe, and this is why the whole don’t let Ben Shapiro speak at a college campus, don’t let conservatives is so dangerous, not to Ben Shapiro and conservatives, but to liberals. You’re not asking these people to question anything about what they believe. Not because I want their minds to change, which I do, but because they don’t even know what the other side is, how to refine their own viewpoints based on what their and that the biggest danger is to them.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: They’re actually shielding themselves from getting knowledge and that’s scary.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And don’t even realize it.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: We focus on ourselves being cut out, which is important, but I actually think that’s more important and we should be saying that to them.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: There are times when we find common ground. I mean we have to say, “You know, we may not agree all on this whole political scale here, but we do agree this is important, let’s fight together.” I may not agree with everything you think, but this is something that we can come to agreement on. When I was on the Ben Shapiro show, he was doing, as it wasn’t the days of Noah, he made it very clear to me. He said, “Jeff, you do realize I’m an Orthodox Jew. I’m not a Christian here.”
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: He has Christians on all the time.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: He does. He was so fair to me. He said, “I have agreement with you and everything you said about the days of Noah. And I think that’s really where we are right now.” And I think that’s just an example of a very fair person giving someone who is of a different opinion, even eschatologically in my case, just to say, Hey, this is a guy who’s got something worth saying. And I think that’s what you do very well, Billy, in all of your interviews, is that you may not agree with everything that these people are saying or the answers to their questions or whatever. But you find that common ground, you find a way to build that bridge, as we’ve talked about on this show, to people. I think in Bible prophecy that’s important. You find a way to build a bridge to them, to put it in their language so that they can say, “That doesn’t sound as freaky as it originally thought it was.”
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Well, yeah, and one of the things too that, when we were putting that book together, I was like, well what do pastors even think about this? Because we don’t know, nobody ever goes out and commission studies. I mean they do studies on everything, but they don’t actually ask questions like, do you pastors believe in demons? I mean there’s some of this stuff is important and so I’m working on a book about that now. And so that’s the question I’ve wanted to ask, but asking about the antichrist. And so we were able to get some data from pastors for that book, which was the first time I think that had been done. And I walked away from that thinking this is really interesting. Getting just a sense of what’s being taught in churches.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So Billy, you’re in that parenthesis in the millennial generation, maybe on the one end. [crosstalk]
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Okay, okay. I wasn’t going to say I was going to let you say it. So why should someone that’s in that millennial generation, why should they even care about Bible prophecy? What would you say?
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Well, you know, because these are the people right now, some of us are running around talking about green new deals and all these other things. But the reality is, we’re the people who will be the future leaders not that far from now. Because some of us are pushing towards 40 now, so very soon, if not already, we’re taking up the mantle. So if we don’t understand what is poised to happen, whether it’s going to happen in five years, two years, 50 years, 200 years, how can we understand how to act? And I think again, that move away from loving God and loving others, that move, it’s very dangerous because it moves us away from the knowledge we need to actually push toward the future in a positive way and to understand what’s happening around us. I think the panic about, and I’m not even commenting on what I think about global warming or climate change, I’m saying the panic around it, is concerning to me because it shows there’s a lack of understanding of what might actually be happening broader.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, that’s good work. Thank you.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Billy Hallowell, you’re an incredible guy, man. You are a prolific writer. You’re all over the place. [crosstalk] Listen, the good news is you’re a moving target. It’s harder to hit a moving target. So you’re always all over the map. So thank you so much for joining us today on the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Thank you.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Todd, listen, we need to get more guys like this on the show.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: We do. And with that, Billy, how can people find more about what you do? Like share your website or any exciting projects you’re working on, the book that you mentioned, share any of that.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: So billyhallowell.com is my website where I have the books and all that. And then actually insider.pureflix.com, it’s where I do daily and it’s really more inspirational, Bible verses, interviews, things like that. And that’s all free content you can read daily. And then the book I’m working on is called, Playing With Fire and it comes out in September and it’s actually the conversation we’re having now, but it’s about demons and possession and what Christians believe about that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I have a book called, The Nonprofits Guide to Spiritual Warfare also coming out in fall.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: That’s awesome.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So let’s tag team and help each other.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Thank you. I like that. That’s awesome.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So the pressure’s on me to write a book.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: You’ve got to write a book on spiritual warfare by September.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Three different books, it would be great.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Consider it done. It’s a trilogy right now. Billy, thanks again.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Thank you.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe, if you have not done so already. And if you liked what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review, that does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot. For more resources or to ask questions or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,171 +0,0 @@
|
||||
|
||||
![[S1E11: Lessons From a 2,600-Year-Old Prophecy.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: What could we possibly learn from a 2,600 year old dusty book of the Bible? Well, hold onto your seats. You’re about to find out.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I’m Jeff Kinley, and along with Todd Hampson here, we’re the Prophecy Pros, and you’re listening to the Prophecy Pro Podcast. And we are so excited that you joined us here today. We’re going to be talking about some really ancient prophecy that we find in the Bible, and how incredibly relevant it is for today.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Todd, one of the things that we talk about when people mentioned prophecy is that they want to be able to look around their world and ask the question, “Does my Bible say anything about the times that I’m living in?” And there’s an interesting verse in 1st Chronicles, chapter 12 verse 32, and it speaks about these men called the sons of Issachar. And it says they were described as men who understood the times with knowledge of what Israel should do. And I find this, one of the things that Bible prophecy does for us, it not only helps us understand the times and really what’s going on in contemporary culture in the world, but also gives us wisdom as to know how to live, and how to walk, and how we should make decisions in our lives.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And so, as we approach this topic here, looking at the book of Daniel today, we’re going to find out some things that really give us insight as to what’s going on in the world. But I have to ask you to begin with, you think about Daniel, when most people think about Daniel, they think about Daniel and the lion’s den, and God shut the mouths of the lions, and it’s really something we teach our children in Sunday school or at home before they go to bed. But there’s a lot more to Daniel than just Daniel and the lion’s den, right?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. There really is. It’s easy to get that flannelgraph connotation of the book of Daniel with the lion’s den, or the fiery furnace, or even Daniel in captivity as a teenager. And all those are definitely relevant, applicable, compelling things and stories we should know, but because of that, a lot of people don’t even realize that literally one half of the book of Daniel is end times prophecy, and actually eight of the 12 chapters contain prophecy. So literally most of the book is prophetic. Of the 12 chapters, eight of them have prophecy in them. So it’s definitely a prophetic book.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It was written around 537 BC, and there are several compelling prophecies in the book that just really, number one, prove that scripture is from God, that God predicted things in advance. Not just little things that were self fulfillment kind of things, but major, longterm, national and international global prophecies. So we’re going to talk about kind of some of the highlights of those today.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s exciting. Daniel’s been called the revelation of the Old Testament, I think for good reason. And you’re about to unpack some of those prophecies for us today.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, and we mentioned that briefly in a previous podcast that it’s kind of the framework that Revelations sits in, and it’s the first place we learn about several things. One of them, which we’ll hit on at the end of this, and you’ve done a lot of research on this, Jeff, is the person of The Antichrist or The Man of Sin. He’s got a lot of different names, so he’s first unveiled in Daniel. We’ll talk about that towards the end.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But, first, just to kind of show how incredibly compelling the book of Daniel is, there’s a prophecy of successive kingdoms in Daniel chapter two, and then we learn about it again in a later chapter, chapter seven, but where we learn about it in chapter two, it’s described as a statue that has a head of gold. And then it has the success of metals that go down in quality as you go down, but up in strength. So we have all kinds of stuff that basically represents the Babylonian empire, the Medo-Persian empire, the empire of Greece, and then Rome. The legs are Rome, the iron legs.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And this prophecy of those successive kingdoms is so compelling that critics used to say, “Oh, it had to be written after the fact.” Then, in 1947, we found The Dead Sea Scrolls, which showed the book of Daniel was long in existence and long used by the Jewish communities as early as 150 BC is the earliest we can go back with The Dead Sea Scrolls.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And a lot of the prophecies that are described in Daniel chapter two didn’t come to fulfillment until modern times. The Roman legs split into two. That happened after all the Bible was complete. And then even in our times, the last section of that prophecy talks about the feet kind of breaking up into a mixture of iron and clay, and kind of nation state. So these empires would break up into smaller nation states, some of them strong, some of them weak. And that’s exactly what we saw happen historically.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Then, ultimately, with that prophecy, like I said, all of Daniel ties back into end times prophecy. It says eventually there’ll be a 10-toed kingdom that is the end times kingdom, and prophecy experts differ on whether that’s 10 nations or 10 regions of the world. I kind of lean towards the 10 regions of the world thing right now, but scripture is not crystal clear.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And that’s very interesting, by the way, because we can actually historically trace those previous nations. We say, okay, yeah, yeah, it’s fine. We’ve got Babylon here, we got Medo-Persia, we’ve got Greece, we’ve got Rome, but Rome has never existed in a 10 nation or 10 coalition state, which tells us what? That it’s not in the past, right?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right. It’s yet future.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And then, going with that, and we’ll get into this in a moment, there’s other prophecies in the book of Daniel that hint at a gap of time, and it’s in Daniel chapter nine, and we’ll talk about that in a moment, but also with the feet to the 10 toes, again, that shows us there’s some kind of gap or there’s something mysterious there that … How to go from broken up nation states to these 10 toes, and then we kind of find the answer to that in Daniel chapter nine.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And there we learn of 70 weeks of years. I often tell people if you really want to get a grip on God’s timetable specifically for the Jewish people … Well, let me back up a little bit. Daniel knew from studying Jeremiah that they were supposed to be in Babylon for 70 years. And he knew that, okay, 70 years is about up, because the book of Daniel is actually a full lifetime chronology of Daniel’s … It’s basically his journal of prophecy and events, so it’s written over a long period of time. So he knew, based on other prophecy, that that 70 years was almost up. So he went into a period of fasting and praying, and he was just trying to find out when it was time to go back home, but just like God always does, he gave Daniel more than he bargained for and said, “Okay, not only am I going to tell you when you’re going back home, but I’m going to tell you the entire Jewish history from now until the very end.” He gave him a lot more than he bargained for.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And it’s really that prophecy, and I’d encourage our readers to read it and study it. It’s the last four verses of Daniel chapter nine, and it’s so dense. There’s so much there. It’s like you go to pick up a tennis ball and you find out it weighs as much as a cannon ball. You know? There’s just so much packed into that that you can really study it.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But basically what it does, it talks about 70 weeks of years, and the biblical model here is kind of like we talk about decades. He uses sevens here. We find that all but the last seven weeks have already been fulfilled. And there are several things that he talks about in there, but again, he gives the full scope of Jewish history. And one of the things he gives is he talks about the time of Jesus’s or the Messiah’s first arrival. And I’ve heard … I haven’t done this personally where I mapped it out, but I’ve read other prophecy experts who have done the math, and from King Artaxerxes’ decree to allow Nehemiah to go back and rebuild Jerusalem to the time of Palm Sunday was exactly the timeframe that Daniel said would be for the Messiah to come in.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Works out to the absolute day actually.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It’s very specific.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Mind blowing. And God’s given us archeological discoveries and other historical things to back up, so we know exactly when those dates were. So it’s just kind of neat how God allows us to verify the prophecy.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, it really does, and how specific God. Some people think that prophecies just generalize, because when you read certain events and certain things in Revelation, you go, “Okay, well that could happen here, that could happen here,” but there are specific prophecies that do give us, and this is one of them, an exact date on when the Messiah would appear in Jerusalem, which indeed he did when he wrote into Jerusalem on a donkey.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And then also in those four verses, we have Jesus’s death prophesied. It says after the 62 sevens, the Anointed One would be put to death, and have nothing. This was clearly fulfilled at the cross. Jesus died. He literally owned nothing, was buried in a borrowed tomb, and we know that historically. Then also it prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish temple in 70 AD. That event was prophesied and happened, if we look at that along with what Jesus said in the Olivet discourse, that every stone would be thrown down from the temple. Again, specificity. Every single detail of those prophecies were fulfilled and linked together.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. And once again, Todd, even if you were to take a late date for Daniel, which no one really does now because of the archeological discoveries, and the Dead Sea Scrolls. But even if you took a late date, there’s no way he could have known that Jerusalem would be destroyed in this way in 70 AD by the Roman General Titus. And he came, and he sacked it completely. But that, again, just speaks to the specificity to the accuracy of Bible prophecy.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And we have to just pause for just a second just to say Bible prophecy … It’s not Nostradamus here. It’s not a horoscope.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Vague …
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, it’s not this vague thing. It’s actually God himself who’s writing history in advance, and he’s doing it for our benefit. He did it for Daniel’s benefit, and, in this case, he’s doing it for the whole Jewish nation’s benefit here. So, yeah, the crucifixion of the Messiah, the destruction of Jerusalem. I interrupted you. Go ahead.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: No, you’re good. That’s perfect.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Another thing it prophesied is that there would be a mysterious gap, and this is where you really got to pay attention in those dense four verses. But there’s a mysterious gap in between verses 26 and 27, and that’s where I believe the church age fits in. And the reason we know there’s a gap there … It’s almost a hidden gap, but he talks about the destruction of the temple, and then in the very next verse he talks about this evil in times ruler that will come and defile the temple. So somewhere there had to be some kind of time period hidden in here between the destruction of one temple and the rebuilding of another temple.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Now, with hindsight, and what we know about the church age, we know that’s the church age. So it’s almost like at the triumphal entry when Jesus walked through that, the prophetic Jewish clock, so to speak, was paused, and it will restart again when the Antichrist signs a seven year covenant. And that will restart the clock, and issue in those final seven years, which we know as the Tribulation.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Right. But what’s interesting too is that when you read Daniel chapter nine, like you said, there’s this mysterious gap there. We’re actually living between verse 26 and 27 right now.Todd: That’s pretty cool.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: We’re in this little gap. And people say, “Well, why didn’t God just fill in all the blanks here? Why didn’t he tell us everything?” And one of the principles of Old Testament prophecy I think our listeners would be very curious to hear is that in the Old Testament, God gave certain parts of the plan to different prophets to reveal to Israel, and when you put it all together, you kind of got the whole puzzle, right? But someone described it this way. It’s like these prophets are looking at mountain peaks that go off in the distance, and they can see this mountain peak and this mountain peak, and they write about it. But they can’t see the valleys in between, you know?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yep. It makes a lot of sense.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, and when you consider the fact that not only could they not see what was going to happen in the in between events, but also that the whole idea of the church and of the church age was a biblical mystery to the Old Testament prophets. And, in fact, Paul talks extensively about church, and the broad of Christ being this mystery because, as a Jewish believer, they could only see the Jewish nation’s covenant relationship with God, and they couldn’t conceive of the possibility that gentiles would enter into this. And of course, we read about it in Romans chapter nine through 11. How God grafted us in, and how the church is this huge mystery.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But, yeah, so we’re living between verse 26 and verse 27 right now.Todd: Yeah. That’s pretty interesting to think about, and I like what you said, too, about us being grafted in, and then the church being a mystery because in our next episode, we’re going to dive more deeply into that, about Israel, and the importance of Israel, and the difference between Israel and the church, and God’s conditional and unconditional promises to Israel, and how that all relates. This is a good setup for that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yes. Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And as a lead into that, a lot of people get confused about Israel and the Jewish people, but once they study Daniel, particularly Daniel chapter nine, it really gives you a really good solid groundwork to understand those things.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And, Jeff, there’s one last thing that we mentioned that you’ve done a ton of research on. There’s a very large section, several sections, in Daniel that talk about this person called The Man of Sin, or we call him The Antichrist, but he’s got all these different titles. Why don’t you share a little bit with us about that individual, and what Daniel says about him?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Daniel has a lot to say about The Antichrist. In fact, I get perhaps more questions about The Antichrist than anyone else. And it’s interesting, he’s a major player in end times prophecy. In fact, the Bible says more about The Antichrist than any other end times figure except Jesus Christ himself, with over a hundred passages in scripture about The Antichrist. So God might’ve wanted us to know a little bit about this person.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, he might’ve wanted us to know a little bit about him.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But we see the word “Antichrist,” and we’ll do a whole episode just on that in the future, but The Antichrist is mentioned, specifically that word, five times in the New Testament, specifically in first John, but also we see other names he’s known by. He’s called The Beast. He’s called The Man of Sin, The Son of Perdition, and The Arrogant Prince. And it says here in verse 27 of Daniel, it says he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week. But in the middle of the week, he will put a stop to sacrificing grain offering. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed is poured out on the one who makes desolation.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And what’s very interesting about this verse, it tells us a lot here. Won’t be able to dive into all of it, but it says he makes a firm covenant. Well, we know between verse 26 and 27 is the church age, so sometime at the end of the church age, this person is going to emerge from the waters of history, and he’s going to make an agreement with the Jewish people.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Now, there have been presidents, every president, in fact, since Richard Nixon has tried to bring peace to the Middle East. In fact, as we speak, the Trump peace plan is being presented and being talked about with Israel right now, and just billions of dollars that are going into all this kind of thing with peace in the Middle East, but they’ve all failed. Every one of them has failed. Antichrist will not fail. He will bring this peace, I believe, and he will make it possible for them in this peace plan somehow to rebuild the Jewish temple.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And there’ve been many theories about how that’s going to happen. Personally, I think there’s going to be the war of Gog and Magog that’s going to happen at the beginning of the Tribulation, sometime in that inner period there, but it’s going to enable the Jews to rebuild their temple, whether the current Mosque of Omar, the current Dome of the Rock is taken away, but this is going to be something happened there to enable them to do that. And we know that from it says he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering. Well, how they get them to do sacrifice and grain offering is if there’s no temple. So, apparently, we can piece the puzzle together to say The Antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel, enable them to rebuild their temple. They will make sacrifices in the temple. And then somewhere in the middle here, actually in the middle of the seven year Tribulation period, he’s going to come in. He’s going to put a stop to that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: When we harmonize the rest of scripture together, we find out what Jesus was talking about called the abomination of desolation. And basically that’s the time when The Antichrist will enter into that temple. He’ll put a stop to sacrifice. He’ll declare himself to be God. He’ll sit in the holy place, and demand that the world worship him.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So, in other words, Daniel, Jesus, and John in Revelation all talk about this guy and this mid-Tribulation event?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yes, absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s pretty good.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: They’re all in sync. Imagine that.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: [crosstalk 00:16:28]. Real quick question related to all that. Because it says in Daniel nine that he’ll enforce or strengthen a covenant, do you think some of the existing peace covenants, maybe even the one now, the peace agreement, could be kind of the framework that this future individual uses and adds to it, strengthens it, maybe adds the temple building to it?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And pushes it over the finish line?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yes. And with that, I think is the context of the time that he’s going to do this in. I believe that there’s going to be the rapture event prior to this that’s going to bring cataclysmic global chaos to the world, and there’s going to be a time in which a huge upheaval is going to be happening. There’s going to be economic collapse, moral depravity on a worldwide scale. There’s going to be panic. There’s going to be just mass suicides. There’s going to be so much going on, I believe, during that time, Todd, that that’s going to enable him to come in in that context, much like Hitler did in pre-World War Germany. When the whole country was suffering, he brought hope to them. Unfortunately, he was an evil man, but he brought the sense of pride to the German people, and hope, and that type of thing. Restored their sovereignty.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So what I think The Antichrist is going to do is he’s going to look at this situation, this context. He’s going to seize upon the opportunity as the ultimate opportunist. He’s going to make this peace covenant with them. And, yes, I think he very well could draw from previous peace plans to be able to strengthen it, but it’s going to be one that’s going to be stronger than all of them together, and more convincing as well.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And so as believers living in the church age right now, we’re not waiting to see The Antichrist. What we’re going to see first, you and I believe, is the rapture. But the rapture’s not what starts the Tribulation period. It’s the confirming of this peace covenant, right?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely, and that’s a huge misunderstanding I think that a lot of Christians have is then once the rapture happens, the Tribulation starts. No. There’s going to be some sort of time period. It could be weeks-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Hours, days …
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It could be months, who knows? But The Antichrist … When that ink dries on that document, that’s when the Tribulation period officially begins.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s wild, man.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That is really wild.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Well, like you said, we’ll definitely hit on that more in depth. Jeff’s got a whole book on that where he’s done just a ton of research, so it would be neat to do a deep dive on that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, I think it really will be, and I think one of the things that our audience, I think, appreciates is the fact that we’re trying to give this panorama Bible prophecy in a irrelevant form. And that’s one of the things that I do in my new book, Interview with The Antichrist. It’s a full on novel about a young man who gets in the inner circle of The Antichrist. But at the end of the book, I give 30 compelling questions answering all the questions that are typically asked about this antichrist straight from the scripture. So I think they’re really going to enjoy it. We’ll talk about that in future podcasts.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That is super cool. And then just as as we wind this one down, it’s neat to note as we looked at all these specific prophecies, and what scripture says, that we can look out into the world right now and see the stage being set for all this, like we said. Whether it’s iterations of the peace agreement, whether it’s the conditions of the world that are already screaming for somebody who can bring peace to the chaos. There’s more uprisings in countries right now than there’s been in a really long time.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s a great point, Todd, because I think those two things you just said, the two things that the world wants right now more than anything else is peace in the Middle East, and pushing for world unity. There’s this globalist/globalism push that we’re having right now where countries, even right now, are leaning on other countries. It’s almost like mountain climbers being tethered to one another. It’s like that’s the way our countries are right now. When one falls, it affects another one. So countries are bailing out other countries. They’re in debt to each other. There’s going to come a time where the world’s going to be led by a 10 nation coalition headed up by The Antichrist. And that’s going to be the ultimate world unity, which is what Satan has been wanting ever since the dawn of time. But then the other thing is just being The Antichrist, bringing that peace to the Middle East. If someone today brought absolute calm to the Middle East, and everybody was happy and we knew it-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: They’d give him whatever he wanted.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So why is that a bad thing? I’m playing devil’s advocate. Why is globalism a bad thing? Why shouldn’t we all just unite, and erase our borders, and just all be one big, happy family?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, that’s a great question. As with other great qualities, what Satan does is he counterfeits good things. Unity is a good thing, but it’s what are you unified around? Even in the Christian church, people say, “Well, we just need unity above all.” Well, wait a minute. What are we unified on? We need to be unified on things that are true.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: There’s got to be some standards.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. And so what The Antichrist is going to do, he’s going to bring the world together for an evil unity, ultimately to worship Satan, to worship The Antichrist. And so that’s why unity is not a good thing in this situation.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And also it doesn’t take into account the sin nature that we all have. There’s no checks and balances if nations can’t hold each other accountable, or push back on each other. And every single case we’ve ever seen of a dictator running everything, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Sin takes over, and it’s just not a good thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So add that with the fact that Satan’s had a long laid plan to bring this guy to the forefront, and literally in the midpoint of the Tribulation, he possesses this guy. So it’s not a good thing in any way, shape or form.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Flip that around to tell our listeners this is that there will be a day when Jesus Christ returns to this earth.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: He is going to bring us together as one. We will be united under the reign of the true king, Jesus Christ. And also there will be that peace. The Bible calls him the Prince of Peace, and he will bring peace to the earth during his millennial kingdom.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So those are some great thoughts from Daniel. Todd, thank you so much. And there’s so much more, obviously, we could dive into, but wanted to hit some of the high points there to give our listeners some insight on that. And, as we said in the beginning, just like the sons Issachar, you can discern the times and see what’s coming to know how you should live your life. And so we wanted to give that wisdom today. Hope they enjoy it.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. And just like we always mentioned, we want to hear from you. We want to hear your questions, whether it’s related to something you heard today, or there are other topics related to this which we’ll talk about in the future, like what is the millennial kingdom? What’s that going to be like? What’s the purpose of it? It’s almost like every question we answer unveil seven new questions to answer, but that’s the beauty of scripture is it’s a never ending well of just beauty and just majesty.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So we hope you’re picking up on some of that, but we want to hear from you. We want to hear your questions, and you can find out all the information you need to about Jeff’s ministry, about my ministry if you just go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And there, you can answer questions, and you can follow us on various social media platforms, and that sort of thing. So, again, just go to prophecyprospodcast.com, and we’ll catch you next time.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe, if you have not done so already. And if you liked what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review. That does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot.Todd: For more resources or to ask questions or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,229 +0,0 @@
|
||||
|
||||
![[S1E12: Amir Tsarfati: Israel, World Deception, and The Day Approaching.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast. I’m Jeff Kinley along with Todd Hampson and our special guest today is Amir Tsarfati and Amir is from Israel, of course, and he’s a native Israeli and a former major in the Israeli Defense Forces. He’s the founder and president of Behold Israel, which is a nonprofit ministry that provides access to news and information about Israel from a biblical and prophetic standpoint.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: He is married and he has four children and resides in Northern Israel and he’s also the author of a brand new book called The Day Approaching: An Israeli’s Message of Warning and Hope for the Last Days, published by Harvest House Publishers and Amir joins us today from Israel. Amir, thank you so much for being on the Prophecy Pros podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Oh, thank you. It’s my pleasure and I hope that it will bless many.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen. Well, let’s jump into it.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amir we’re introducing hopefully your ministry to a lot of people who, even though your ministry is global worldwide, literally hundreds of thousands of people following you and hearing your weekly prophecy updates and that sort of thing but in case some of our listeners hadn’t heard about you before we thought maybe we’d start by if you could just briefly share how you came to Christ and then we’ll start there.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Yeah, I’ll gladly do that. Well, I grew up in foster care since my parents divorced when I was very young. I was just three years old. Growing up in foster care was not the best thing ever and at some point at the age of 17, having no hope in my life, I thought this is not for me and I wanted literally to kill myself. I planned it carefully and just before I did that by consuming tons of pills, something stopped me. I mean, I know today who it was, but then I didn’t and I decided to give the world one last chance.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: That time I studied for my high school exams, I went to visit a friend of mine to do study with him in his house and while I was in his house the parents and their children before lunch were holding hands and bowing down their heads and they prayed without any prayer book or anything, and they talk to God as if he’s their best friend. They even-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Wow.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: …used the personal attributes, such as thanking God for me for being there. I mean, nothing was scriptural or… scripted excuse me. Anyway, I lost my appetite. I didn’t understand what’s going on. I started asking million questions and along the next few days, when I started going over to that friend again and again, I decided it’s time to ask the million dollar question. Why do you pray in the name of Jesus, B’shem Yeshua every prayer. They told me everything, but I couldn’t really understand that. They asked me to just ask God. To ask God to show me who Jesus is and so I did and the following morning after I prayed, I went to work before school as I did, since I’m 12 and I put together the different parts of the morning newspaper, and there it was. A huge one page size advertisement for the Jesus film of Campus Crusade for Christ showing in Jerusalem for two days following the day after I prayed.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: I mean, I couldn’t believe that God is answering prayers that fast and in such a high quality. I mean, we’re talking about a movie that was thrown for me speaking in Hebrew with great cast. The backdrop of the movie… because the movie was filmed in Israel. I recognized everything. Some of the cast was Israeli cast, and so everything was amazing. I understood the gospel. I understood how it fits all the words of the prophets because I was very connected to the Jewish prophets breathing the Old Testament. I had no idea about the New Testament.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: I accepted Jesus that night. Came back home, told everyone in my foster family that they’re sinners and they must be saved. One day you’re a sinner, the next day you accuse everyone else for being… and then after a few weeks, when they saw that it’s not a teenage craziness, it’s actually a serious threat, they kicked me out of the house. I moved to live with my friends who led me to the Lord. I got baptized three days before my military service began and I joined Israeli Army. From someone who didn’t even like the basic training and wanted to run away from the military, I ended up being summoned to the officer’s academy completing the very, very difficult officer’s course in Israel in the middle of the desert.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Just when the Gulf War started, I was sent to Jericho. Within few months became the deputy governor of Jericho and few months later I was brought to the inner circle of this secret, the state secret that Israel began negotiating with the Palestinians on full withdrawal from Jericho. When I left the military, I studied in the Hebrew University to become an Israeli licensed tour guide. I led tours and after getting married we moved to Germany to serve there in a different capacity, which I’m not at liberty to talk on.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: We came back, I studied school of ministry in Costa Mesa, California. Came back again and started Behold Israel originally right after 9/11. I was in New York, 9/11. I mean, believe it or not. I saw the… last evening that fell on those two buildings. After that of course the Lord started opening so many doors to teach, but Behold Israel was registered as a nonprofit in the U.S. only about 2014, I think and that’s it.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Wow.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: We’ve got four children. We live in Northern Israel, right opposite the valley of Armageddon. I get to see it every morning.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Wow.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: What amazing testimony in terms of how you came to the Lord but also it is abundantly clear that just the Lord has had his hand on you every step of the way, preparing you for what you’re doing now and I’m really glad you shared all that Amir, because that really gives a lot of context. If some of our listeners haven’t heard of you before, that gives a lot of context. It lends a lot of credibility. [inaudible] a lot of the other questions we’re going to ask you about Bible prophecy and what we’re seeing in our day and that sort of thing and that kind of brings us to the first question. The elephant in the room is about COVID-19. There’s so much confusion around that. In households, in America and every country, everything from it’s not even a disease to the whole gamut.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Recently you had a prophecy update where you talked about the two extreme views and then kind of the middle of the road view and just the importance of believers having discernment but all of that as a lead up to ask you this one question, what do you make of COVID-19? How it relates to Bible prophecy and how we should as believers use the sermon to kind of filter what we hear and how we respond to what’s going on in the world.
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||||
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||||
Amir: Yeah, well, I’ve been teaching for the longest time on the attempt of a global elite to basically create a new world order and a one world government and that attempt started in the book of Genesis already. I always like to go back there because it’s all back in Genesis. It’s all in Genesis. We cannot attribute that only to the 21st century, and they’ve tried everything. They’ve tried world wars, they tried climate change. They’ve tried different financial crisis and different other things, but nothing ever, ever was so well planned and well executed as COVID-19.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to go back just about three years ago and see that the warnings by those people were already sounded, that within a few years a surprise pandemic is going to take place. Now, I never heard of a surprise pandemic that can be predicted three years earlier and we’ve seen a great, great effort in the last few months prior to the outbreak to start pushing the idea of vaccination for an immediate threat of a pandemic. Now let’s face it. If they claim this is something that came from the wet market in Wuhan, how in the world could they have known that pandemic is about to break up? I mean, there’s no way you could know that.
|
||||
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||||
Amir: However, if you know where that virus is going to come from, if you know when that virus is going to be released, and if you know how it is going to behave, that is good enough information for you to start sounding the alarm months and even years before because you’re in full control of everything and that is exactly what happened. By the way this is not a conspiracy theory, that the United States administration agrees that the Wuhan lab is the source of the virus. That China was well aware that there is a virus that is lethal and that the virus can spread from human to human and that it is super contagious and China knew about it. I mean, it seems like anyone who collaborated behind the scenes with China in the labs was well aware of everything.
|
||||
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||||
Amir: The people who were not well aware are the good and the simple people that don’t seek to destroy and to control and to gain from all of these things, and the world was taken by surprise and by the way, from the very get going, I remember I knew that the main aim of the virus is to hit America eventually and to somehow bring down the American economy. Look, if there is one thing that President Trump could wave at the face of the Democrats in running for a re-election, it was the economy. Let’s face it. The economy did great. The unemployment was in its lowest numbers ever. It was a miracle.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: I mean, thinking about what he received from President Obama and what he made it within just less than three years, it was nothing short a miracle and the blessing of God, the good hand of God. I cannot disconnect it from that because President Trump from day one understood the value of prayer, the value of faith based movements to take a very big role in its administration and all of that.
|
||||
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||||
Amir: Now, what is the best way to destroy the economy of the United States is to not shoot a single gunshot and to somehow create an atmosphere where the whole world is affected thus America is not different than any other country, and you cannot blame anyone for what you’re going through because everybody shared the same misery and pain. This is brilliant if you really think about it. Just like China just said a few days ago, if America will blame us for COVID-19, we will blame America for the Spanish flu. I mean, it’s something that you cannot really put your finger on and blame someone and ask for some sort of compensation or anything.
|
||||
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||||
Amir: Now, the spiritual aspect of it is even more important because as I said, it is a global effort for a global control of a small group of people that is using people who love themselves and money. Let’s face it. The people behind the scenes, the very few families, they don’t lack money. They have more than you can ever imagine, but they lack the control that they wish to have. They’re operating like puppets. People that want money, love money, wish for more money and would love to be part of all of that, and these are the politicians and these are the officials in the different government departments and that’s the sad thing that we see today.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: The deadly combination of very corrupt government officials and corrupt politicians joining hands in taking advantage of this pandemic and pushing forward and pushing through their liberal agenda and their… look if I’m not mistaken, there was a mayor in the U.S. that just literally used… I’m not sure if it’s a mayor or a governor. She used the word new world order. That’s what she said. She said, we are in a new world order and that’s where we are. The Bible predicted that at the very end people will be lovers of money. People will… and all of that is under this guise of we take care of you. We want you to be healthy. We wanted to do well. We’re protecting you.
|
||||
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||||
Jeff: [crosstalk] in safety, yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Exactly. It’s fascinating to see that. Look, we couldn’t stop it. Could you? We couldn’t stop it. There’s so many things in this world that are going to be evil, that we know they will happen but we cannot stop it. God, through his word already told us it is going to happen. I mean, let’s face it. None of us will ever stop the antichrist from showing up.
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||||
Jeff: That’s right.
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||||
|
||||
Amir: I mean, you can try but it won’t work, and so none of us will not be able to stop the opening of the seals and the blowing of the trumpets and the bowls and all of that. These things are going to happen because God knows what men are going to do or say, or even think and so we as believers, we’re exposed to a classified information of what the future is going to be. People pay a lot of money to know what’s going to happen. We don’t need to, we just need to flip the pages, get to the book of Revelation and enjoy a revelation that was given to John 19, almost 2000 years ago.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: John himself had no idea in many cases how accurate and amazing the things that he has been exposed to, to people that will live almost 2000 years later and here we are. We are the people. We are the generation like no other generation that is watching these things, that is seeing these things, that is experiencing these things. I’m thinking about biblical scholars that had to write about Israel 110 years ago, 120 years ago. They needed a lot of faith to say Israel will be back at their land because we were all scattered in more than a hundred different countries.
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||||
Amir: Most of the Jews never planned on going back to Israel and Israel was a desert wasteland and so you needed a lot of faith, but the Bible said we will be back and here we are in the 21st century, we’re already back. 72 years ago, we established our state and we are the generation that can see the fig tree blooming, and so there’s so much that our generation has been blessed by and to whom much is given, as you all know, much is required.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: That’s so true Amir. I appreciate that perspective and you’ve just recently written about a lot of this in your new book, The Day Approaching. Why don’t you just take a minute and tell us, how does your book address some of these issues that we’re beginning to see. Just these converging prophecies and the way that the world really is coming together like little tributaries into this river of God’s prophecy. Tell us how your book addresses some of that.
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||||
Amir: Well, my book is… As an Israeli believer, I like to look at things from the perspective of how things look like from Israel and I look at the prophecy of Daniel regarding the timing of things to happen. I look at the prophecy of Ezekiel regarding establishment of the state of Israel, the return of the Jews back to their land and what’s next when it comes to the war that is around the corner. I’m also looking at the reality of the Jewish people and the church. The apostasy of the church, as in 2 Thessalonians chapter two, that is already going on how the world is getting ready with a mystery of lawlessness that is already at work.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: I don’t believe we are to see the antichrist but we already see the preparation for the antichrist. We already see the apostasy that has to come before even his rise and I was tackling that. I was talking about the fact that we are having the restrainer within us, the Holy Spirit. I talk about what the restrainer is all about. When will the restrainer be removed, why the restrainer is removed. I talk about what happens when we get to heaven. I look at that perspective also, the bema seat of Christ for the believers from corruptible to incorruptible and of course I’m talking about the millennial kingdom, which is something that the church is divided on because… it really saddens me that we as believers choose portions of the Bible that we should take seriously and portions of the Bibles that we should not take seriously. Portion of the Bible we should take literally and others we shouldn’t.
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||||
Amir: The mere fact that Israel is back in the land to me is a great testimony to how God is not only accurate in the timing of things, but in the manner of how he’s doing things.
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|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
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||||
Amir: I don’t understand how come you find no problem for a nation to resurrect after 2000 years, but you find a problem for Jesus to return and reign from Jerusalem for a thousand years.
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||||
Jeff: Right.
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||||
Todd: I was going to say, if you believe Genesis 1:1, the rest of the Bible’s not that hard to believe.
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||||
Amir: Exactly. Exactly, but you know what? I believe that many of them will give you maybe even a different take on Genesis. Once you remove the whole story of the downfall of man, you will also have to remove the need for atonement and the need for sacrifice and all of that.
|
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||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: When you don’t teach a six days creation and the fall of man, why would you try to lead anyone to Christ? I mean, if there is no need for a sacrifice. They always choose the things they’re more comfortable with and that is of course because they were brain washed by science. If science can not in their opinion prove a six days creation, then of course, science will never support a return to earth of Jesus with millions of his believers in a body that is not even humanlike like we have today and reigning over humans that still have the human body.
|
||||
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||||
Amir: Everything doesn’t make sense, but you know what? If that doesn’t make sense to you, then don’t even get close to the book of Revelation because every chapter there will not make sense to you.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. Jeff and I often talk about the importance of one of the… for both of us, the importance of Bible prophecy, the fact of fulfilled Bible prophecy. That track record is why we can believe all the other crazy stuff because even though we haven’t seen the return or the events of Revelation, we can look to God’s track record of fulfilling Bible prophecy.
|
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|
||||
Amir: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: …in credence to his word, which is right and has a batting average of a thousand, and that’s kind of what we’re trying to convey to our listeners is… and a lot of them are first time prophecy students and actually because of the COVID-19 stuff and everything being shut down and churches doing more things online. Personally, I’ve been hearing from more and more people, probably more than I have in the past six years, that are awakening to the truth of Bible prophecy for the very first time. Amir, we are wondering if you’ve seen kind of some of that same phenomena, like the church at large still seems largely asleep, but it seems like there’s a whole new generation of believers and these are this audience we’re trying to reach that are finally kind of opening their eyes to Bible prophecy and looking at the world through that grid. Are you noticing kind of same thing?
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: I do notice that, but I must say that I’m not impressed by… Let me explain what I’m saying. I was in New York the day before 9/11. In that morning of 9/11, I was in New Jersey doing a devotional for a large church just on the other side of the river and of course I remember the aftermath of 9/11. I remember that the churches were packed and I remember that I actually had to stay, I couldn’t fly back home. I had to stay 10 more days and I traveled from one church to another and churches were just packed with thousands of people and people were parked outside and listening through loudspeakers outside and people bought the DVDs and the tapes. At that time there were still tapes, believe it or not.
|
||||
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||||
Amir: It was amazing and the number of people that every time we gave [inaudible] or called. The number of people that came forward was unbelievable but here we are. I can’t imagine, but we’re almost 20 years after that and let’s face it, the effect of 9/11 has dwindled a little bit and maybe even three years, four years later when you have a 9/11 and then short… I don’t know. Six years later, you vote for a Barack Hussein Obama as your president, then I’m not sure what was going on through the mind of most Americans at the time but I do know one thing, genuine conversion, genuine faith in Christ can only be measured in the longer run. I do see now more or less what I saw then a greater interest in the Bible. A greater interest in understanding the times and the seasons.
|
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||||
Amir: My prayer is that it won’t fade away as fast as the 9/11 did because let’s face it. This is not the judgment of God, but it’s definitely, if God allowed it, it’s the warning of God and what a shame it will be. Look, I am reminded of the two witnesses. I’m just preparing a message under two witnesses right now, [inaudible] my mind. The two witnesses… I mean, imagine to yourself the power that God gave them and all the great, terrible things that they are exposing regarding the antichrist and they are confronting him, the beast with… or anyone who is not following God with the truth of the word of God. You would think that these people are going to create a massive return to the Lord of the whole world but if anything, people took pleasure in seeing them dead and dragged in the streets, and yes, when they were resurrected, there was a move of God among the people, but it didn’t last too long. It didn’t last too long then.
|
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||||
Amir: Then the second part of the tribulation begins and we know the end of the story. Again, I’m just saying, my prayer is that we will do what we need to do, which is giving the people the word of God and the promises that God has for the believers and of course, let God do the rest. I can only tell you that I feel bad for those that will continue to reject him now because COVID-19 is nothing, compares to what the world is going to go through.
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Todd: Amen.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: That’s right. Yeah. The post rapture chaos and crisis is going to hit is… like you said earlier, is going to create an environment out of which the man of sin can rise up and bring that peace and safety and that type of thing. You’re right. I mean, I love the way you described that. This really is sort of just… almost like a preview trailer of what’s to come in the spirit of what’s going to eventually happen in the world. A lot of people right now Amir, are the question. A lot of young Christians are asking the question, hey, I know that God loves me, but this is happening in my world and there’s been preachers talking about messages on peace and anxiety and how to handle all this but I don’t hear a lot of people talking about God’s sovereignty and just how it kind of relates to his love for us.
|
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||||
Jeff: I guess the question would be, if you’re a young believer you’re thinking to yourself, I know God loves me, but why is he allowing all this calamity to happen in my world right now? What would you say to someone who is kind of wondering about how God’s going to work all this stuff out for them?
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|
||||
Amir: First of all, I would say that Jesus never promised us a garden of roses. From day one before he left he said, in this world you will have tribulations. He did not sell us illusions. We live in a fallen world with fallen… We are fallen creatures, but we’re surrounded by demons and demonic activity and there is the mystery of lawlessness that is just at work from Genesis 3 already. We see all of that all around us and Jesus said to the father, father, I don’t… then, 2000 years ago. I’m not asking you to take them, but I ask you to keep them out of the evil and so… Look, we need to remember that God, A, is in full control. That, B, sometimes suffering brings some great things in our saved life and a great appreciation to God and God’s word and also we have to understand that as long as we live in such a fallen world, we cannot expect the greatest things of all.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Now, this is why Colossians in chapter three is very, very clear about where we as believers need to set our minds on. What to set our mind on and it says, if you indeed were raised with Christ, if you are a true believer, if you have been born again, then he says to the people then seek those things which are above. He says, and not the things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God and when Christ is in our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Look, until then we need to seek those things which are above and this is why it’s important that we teach people that beyond what we see around us, there is the promise of the rapture and the promise of the bema seat and the promise of the marriage supper of the lamb, and the promise of returning with Jesus to reign and rule with him and judge with him, and the promise of the new Jerusalem.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: There are wonderful promises for the children of God that we need to focus on and not only on the bad things that are a direct consequence of the fallen state of man and of this world.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Wow.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s actually a perfect lead into my next question. As we talk about Bible prophecy, we always try to guide the end of our conversation. We have a few more questions, but we try to guide it towards what hope do the believers have and everything you just hit on. All those things that get our mind off and our focus off of the world and onto our promised future, give us hope. In that regard, as we see the shadows of the tribulation being cast, I mean more than we ever have before, number one, what does this tell us about the proximity of the rapture and how should that affect how Christians live today in this very moment?
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Yeah. Well, I always like to use this analogy. When you see middle November Christmas lights, you know that Thanksgiving is around the corner. When you see the signs of the rise of the antichrist, you know the rapture’s around the corner, because it has to come before. There are no signs for the rapture. This is the cool thing. The rapture is going to be, boom, we’re snatched away. No one knows the day, no one knows the hour. What we do know, we do know what the world is going to go through and we do know what’s going to happen in the world and this is why Paul wrote to the Thessalonians regarding our gathering to be with the Lord.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: You have to understand the world is going to grow through things. The world will have to see first great apostasy. The world will have an antichrist that is going to rise. There will be an horrific demonic oppression. People will reject the love of the truth that can save them and they will therefore receive or be given to strong delusions but then he says, look, but you have to understand this antichrist that is going to come and the people that are going to follow him, all of that can not happen until after the restrainer is gone, and so we see the restraining power of the Holy Spirit on all of these things.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Look, let’s face it, look at what the two witnesses are going to do in this world, and I’m talking about the people of God. I’m not even talking about the bad people. The antichrist and all of his people. I’m talking about two witnesses. God is giving them power to stop the rain and to cast fire. You’re talking about things that we don’t see today, but that’s the thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right. Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Right now we are in the realm where the restrainer restraints and he not only restrains the supernatural but also restrains the Lord from judging the people right now. It’s not yet the time. It’s not yet the time and then of course, once the restrainer is removed, then God will judge and it will be supernatural.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. Amir, you mentioned earlier, you live across from the valley of Armageddon and I can’t even begin to imagine how spectacular that must be. Napoleon called that the world’s most natural battlefield, but as you get up every morning and you look across the valley of Armageddon, what does that do for you as a person who is committed to helping the church prepare for the raptures as… preparing the world for the end times, that type of thing. What does it do to your perspective, your sense of immanency, urgency, passion, as you visually are able to see the place where God’s going to fulfill Bible prophecy in Revelation 19, what does that do for you?
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Yeah. Revelation 16:16 speaks of, of course, the gathering place and I always tell people it’s not going to be a war in Armageddon, it’s going to be a gathering place. The war will take place in Jerusalem as Zachariah promised, and God will judge the nations there in the valley of Jehosaphat but the gathering place is showing me that the world is determined to come together only for one purpose, is to defy God and God’s word and to ridicule the people of God and that’s what is going on even now.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: I mean, when was the last time planet earth stopped and all nations were dancing to one rhythm. When? I think the last time it happened is the Tower of Babel. I cannot think of even a single time where the whole world was in the same situation. Look, even in World War I and World War II, one part of the world fought while other part of the world didn’t. South America, I’m sorry, wasn’t part of World War I, World War II. Brazil wasn’t part of it. Mexico wasn’t part… but here, I mean 190 countries were affected by this.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: I can see that the agenda of coming together and definitely not to worship God but to replace God, that’s what I see when I look at the valley, because let’s face it, they’re all gathering together and they would like to fight God in a way, and then they run all the way to the center of the universe, the city of Jerusalem and Jesus will come and he is riding a horse, not with a branch or… an olive branch in his mouth. It’s a sword that is coming.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: …and he’s determined. A lot of people don’t like that part of Jesus. I mean-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: …they don’t like the part that he’s coming to judge. They don’t like the part that he’s coming as a political leader and a military leader. They don’t like the part that it’s a sword that comes out of his mouth and not an olive branch. They prefer him on the cross turning the other cheek and forgiving for everything. Well, they missed a train. He did come for that and the second coming is not for that, and so I am looking at the valley and I’m thinking to myself how amazing it is for me to know the plans and to know the enemy’s plans, not just the plans of God.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Look, every intelligence organization of any country on planet earth, wish they knew what we know. Let’s face it, they would pay a lot of money, but they don’t take us or whatever we say seriously, because it’s the Bible. Because they ridicule the Bible because they don’t think it’s a real thing. They’ll take words of their analysts better than what we say and let’s face it, we are way more accurate than any analyst.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: …and that’s what I feel. I feel like there is great deception. There’s a great power struggle and eventually God will say the last word.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That is-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That is so true and so well put, Amir. I mean, it’s… Jeff and I talk about how it’s like putting on infrared goggles when you study Bible prophecy and believe, take God at his word. You see the world in a whole new light and that makes it sometimes difficult for those of us who are studying Bible prophecy and watching world events because I almost feel like we have to back up what we say 10 times more than anybody else with facts, because it comes across as conspiracy or whatever.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: I know.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: We know that God’s word is true. We put our faith and trust in that as watchmen and as students and teachers.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Let’s face it, there is conspiracy. The conspiracy is to replace God.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: It’s an ancient old conspiracy. We don’t have to. If there is one thing I wish to convey, when my book was written, the idea was, and you can very see it even on the cover. You see a fig tree blooming when everything else is dry and it’s because we as believers, we live in the days when we see the fig tree blooming. The people of Israel. Look, tomorrow is the 72nd anniversary to the recognition of Israel as a sovereign state by Present Truman and it’s also the second anniversary to the recognition of President Trump in Jerusalem as our capital. This is a historic day. We’re talking about-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Nice.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: …unbelievable things. Look, we are the generation that can see the fig tree blooming.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: …and the Bible says that that generation shall not pass away and that’s why I name it, The Day Approaching even though the Bible says, and so much more as we see. Not pray for, hope for, but we see with our very eyes the day approaching.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. Hebrews 10:25 says it all.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And that’s a great lead in to kind of our last question. We joked at the beginning before we started recording that this was going to be a three hour conversation because it literally could be, because we can just keep going, but we want to make sure that you have… before we kind of wrap this up just for time purposes, what’s on your heart right now. Like what’s the one thing… I want to make sure we didn’t end this call without you… in this interview without you talking about the one thing on your heart, the one thing that you most want to impress on listeners right now?
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: I sense a great deal of weariness and anxiety. People are falling into deception from all sides because they tend to fill their minds and hearts with videos rather than the Bible and they watch and they watch things and they share things and then they watch things and they share things. I get probably the same video forwarded to me by probably 500 to 600 people every day.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: We thought we were the only ones.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: And I’m sure that you know exactly which videos I’m talking about because they’re the same that are circulating. We have to discern because many times the makers of these movies, they have a different agenda and many times it’s a bait and switch, which means we want to give you good things now. We’re going to gain your trust and then we’ll put something else later on, and so we have to understand that everything we watch and everything we listen to, it has to be in addition to the Bible and not instead of the Bible. To me, it feels like people have switched the Bible with YouTube. They’ve switched the Bible with Facebook and instead of reading the Bible, they read what people write about Bible.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: …and we end up with biblical illiteracy that leads to deception and leads to division, and that’s what the enemy wants. The enemy wants to sow division and deception and if we can’t attack them from the outside, let’s attack them from the inside. It’s easy. My prayer is that people will return to the word of God and spend time in the word of God, spend time with the Lord in prayer and not be effected easily. Look, I think that the Thessalonians must have not watched YouTube, but they’ve heard every little rumor that came from around the world and they were losing hope, and that’s why Paul needed to tell them do not be like those without hope and he had to remind them what the hope is.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: I want to always remind people the hope that we have, the blessed hope that we have and that we cannot be like those without hope. Because the world right now, honestly, is looking at us. Is looking at us.
|
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|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: If we are having anxiety and fear, and if we are in hysteria right now, how different are we from the world? Where is that peace that surpasses all understanding that we always preach on and say that we have.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: …and that peace will only come if we spend time with the one who is the prince of peace.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen. It’s like Proverbs says, the name of the Lord is a strong tower-
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: …the righteous run into it and they’re safe.
|
||||
|
||||
Amir: Amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amir, that’s the word that we need right now. Listen, we just want to thank you first of all, for your kindred spirit that you are a fellow soldier in Christ Jesus and Amir, we cheer you on from across the world here, but we’re united with you in our common mission to help wake the bride of Christ to prepare her for the soon return of Jesus and also to herald the message to the world of the gospel and the good news of Christ that he is the ark of salvation and the door is still open right now. We want to thank you so much for being with us.
|
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|
||||
Amir: Thank you guys and God bless you.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: God bless you as well, and to our listeners, we really encourage you to listen to this podcast a few times over because there was so much great information packed in there. If you want to find out more about our ministry, just go to prophecyprospodcast.com and there you can ask us questions, follow up questions. You can also find out more information about Jeff’s ministry and my ministry and of course, if you have anything further you want to know about Amir, we’d be glad to share, and we’re going to include information about his ministry so you can find out more about that as well. Thanks again for listening and tuning in again to another Prophecy Pros podcast episode.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe if you have not done so already, and if you liked what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review. That does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot. For more resources or to ask questions or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com, and a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
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![[S1E13: Dr. Tony Evans: A Crisis of Leadership and Hope in Prophecy.mp3]]
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---
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast. I’m Jeff Kinley, along with Todd Hampson and today our special guest is Dr. Tony Evans. And you obviously know who Tony is, if not, you’re about to learn. He’s the founder and senior pastor of the 10,000 member Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship in Dallas. The founder, and president of the Urban Alternative, a former chaplain of the NFL’s Dallas Cowboys, and a present chaplain at the NBA’s Dallas Mavericks. His radio broadcast, The Alternative with Dr. Tony Evans can be heard over a thousand US radio outlets every day, and in more than 130 countries. And for me personally, I’ve had the privilege of studying under Dr. Evans way back in the day at Dallas Seminary, where I had him for Evangelism and some other courses, and it was never, ever a dull moment. Dr. Evans, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast.
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|
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Dr. Evans: Thank you. Good to be with you.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Well, Dr. Evans, you’ve written books on leadership spoken at leadership events. Actually I’ve even been to a couple of way back in the day, I’m from the DC area. So I was at a RFK event and Stand in the Gap and got to see you get your preach on and just really enjoyed that. But you’ve had some very impactful ministry organizations for many years. What wisdom can you share about leading through difficult and challenging times?
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|
||||
Dr. Evans: Well, difficult and challenging times show whether leadership is really there or not. A leader has to know the way, go the way, and show the way. He must be able to ascertain the reality of things, know how he should proceed, show others why they need to go in that particular direction, modeling it for them, and then leading them there. We do have a crisis of leadership today where we do not have enough leaders who are bringing God’s viewpoint to bear on life’s realities in such a way that people are following them to replicate them and the application to whatever the issue is that they are supposed to provide leadership for.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Hmm, amen. You know, Dr. Evans, you’ve been a pastor for many decades. I’ll remember back at Dallas Seminary one of the first things you taught us was that you didn’t like dead preaching. It was one of the things you thought that a pastor needs to be passionate about what he’s talking about. And obviously you’ve done that through expositional teaching through books of the Bible, but also a wide range of topics, including eschatology, which is one of the topics we talk about on here. What is, in your opinion, the usual response, when you teach on the topic of eschatology or revelation or something like that, what’s the response you get from your congregation?
|
||||
|
||||
Dr. Evans: Well, it’s very interesting because we get a lot of questions because that’s a pretty big subject and people are, want to know about the future and what God is saying about the future and how it relates to them, not only in the future, but for the decisions that they need to make today. So we try to make it not only relevant for tomorrow, but impact their decision making today. And when you can blend those two together, then it becomes a relevant topic and not only a futuristic one.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. And along with that, just in terms of overall discipleship, philosophy of ministry, that type of thing, as you teach on these type of topics, I know it’s hard sometimes for people to see the future and how it impacts the present. What would be one way you would say that teaching about eschatology and God’s prophetic promises does change our lives in the now?
|
||||
|
||||
Dr. Evans: Well, when you learn about the eternal state of mankind, it should stimulate evangelism. When you learn about the judgment seat of Christ, it should stimulate obedient living. When you learn about what happens with the soul, when the soul leaves the body it ought to give you comfort. I lost my wife three months ago, four months ago and knowing that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and what that eternal hope is, gives you comfort in your tears. So when you can connect it to your responsibility and your understanding, then it’s not pie in the sky information. It’s transformative because it’s affecting you even now.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Hmm, amen. I think of Paul’s words in 1st Thess four, when he says at the end of teaching on the rapture, he says, “Therefore, comfort one another with these words.” And that comforting that we get from the Holy spirit and the word of God certainly is powerful. One of the questions before I put you back to Todd here, why do you think so many believers today tend to shy away from the study of eschatology, kind of avoid revelation, almost like the pandemic kind of thing. What are some ways that we can use the teaching of eschatology to present it to a new generation? And why do people tend to avoid it, you think?
|
||||
|
||||
Dr. Evans: I think today people are so centered on this world, their lives, their livelihoods, and we live in a very individualistic me-istic generation that that doesn’t seem relevant. Part of that is how it’s proclaimed and how it’s preached, because when it was taught in scripture, it was very relevant. So it wasn’t a pie in the sky doctrine. And so when we fail to let this next generation see that this relates to you where you are, then it will be dismissed because they’re not there now in their thinking and in the world view. I mean, when you look at technology, when you look at the media and how minds have been just infiltrated with this world’s thinking that it shouldn’t surprise us, that the world to come has faded. So what we’ve got to do is we’ve got to up the ante and make this world connected to that world.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s well put, and that’s a perfect lead into the next question because Jeff and I have been noticing because of COVID-19 and recent global developments, even a lot of it’s been blown out of proportion. There are just so many prophetic things linked to it. And we’ve had a lot of people that used to say, we were crazy for talking about end times, Bible prophecy, all of a sudden saying, “Hey, what does the Bible say about this?” So how does the current global instability with all the effects of COVID-19 and other perplexing wild issues that we can’t really get a grip on, how do those demonstrate a convergence of end time conditions in our day?
|
||||
|
||||
Dr. Evans: Well, first of all, everybody should be very aware of the fact that the world can be turned upside down on a dime. I mean, this thing happened virtually overnight and it’s affected the whole world. So when the Bible talks about things happening on a worldwide scale, you know that that can happen right now. The Bible also talks about various kinds of plagues. Well we’ve seen this plague, plague us. And we’ve seen the repercussions of that plague, so we need to take the potential of God’s judgment really serious, because who would have thought that something like this could happen this way. We see the battle with China. That’s a whole nother thing with the rise of China in the midst of this. We see how an economy can collapse almost overnight. Look at the economic stress that we’re going through and that much of the world is going through. So you can see how an antichrist could come in a situation like this and have a one world economy. So you can see whether this is the end time or not a template for how it could happen, which should make you rethink how real God’s prophetic future is because of what you’re seeing right now.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely. Yeah. If one little germ caused this much global disruption, you can only imagine what the rapture will do when that happens. And it’s funny, the more we talk about this, there’s no gray anymore. We either get people like, I see what you’re talking about. This is all in scripture. And then we get a whole nother perspective. Like you guys are crazy and you’re being sensational, which we steer away from sensationalism and that kind of thing. But for the skeptic, what are one or two key signs we could point them to right now that might even just get their attention to say, this is pretty concrete evidence. We are in the end times, or we’re nearing that time period. The tribulation is casting its shadow on us. What are one or two things who might be able to share with them?
|
||||
|
||||
Dr. Evans: Well, one thing that you can share with them is the worldwide scope of it, because the whole world is being affected at one level or another. So I look at the scope of it as a big deal. Not only because of how far it’s spread, but it’s affected every category of life. So all of life has been uprooted, so the two are interconnected. And so when you, when you look at how quickly it happened, how broadly it happened, how devastating it’s been, then I think you have to reconsider your prophetic orientation.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. It does get people’s attention. I mean, I can’t think of a time in my lifetime where the entire world has been talking about one single thing. And again, it’s, it’s affected every single person just about on the planet here. Dr. Evans in these kind of times where there’s a lot of white noise, there’s a lot of stereo, there’s a lot of height. There’s like conspiracy theories. All these things are floating around. How do we, as Christian leaders help Christians kind of distinguish or discern between hysteria, hype and hope? In other words, how do we bring them to that biblical perspective? So they can see the world clearly and not lose their sense of peace?
|
||||
|
||||
Dr. Evans: Well, first of all, we have to identify the source of hope. Source of hope is never tied to your circumstances, or you’d be hopeless. A lot of it is in the character and promises of God. So you have to keep going back to his character and you have to keep going back to his promises based on his word. And therein is where you get your hope. So your focus will determine your feelings of hope or hopelessness. If all you see is what you see, then you’ll never see all there is to be seen. Everything visible and physical is preceded by something invisible and spiritual. So if you want to be able to function in the visible physical, you must be able to see the invisible spiritual.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Hmm, wow. And kind of dovetailing with that you’ve kind of already hit on this a little bit, but I’m just thinking, one thing I love about your ministry is it’s always very practical. Whether when you preach or whatever resources or books you put out, it’s not so deep and so heady that you can’t apply it to real life. So how can we, through eschatology and an understanding of end time events and God’s character and future promises, if there’s somebody watching or listening to this podcast, how can we give them just a new sense of perspective or joy in the midst of all this craziness that’s going around?
|
||||
|
||||
Dr. Evans: Well, first of all, I would say they need to start with looking at what Jesus says about end times, because if you’re a Christian, Jesus is your centerpiece. When he was leaving in John 14, his disciples, and they were all shook up and felt hopeless because of his disappearance. He gave them hope by giving them him. And what this pandemic should do is force us to do a spiritual reset. This is the time to draw nearer, not drift further from the Lord. And when you use, God said in Acts 8, God said persecution in order to get the church out of Jerusalem and to spread the gospel. So God will use inconvenience to move you out of your comfort zone. So look at the pandemic as an inconvenient opportunity. Churchill said, “You never let a good crisis go to waste.” So don’t let this pandemic go to waste.Because you’re forced to quarantine more than you want to, because the economics may be shaky, let that drive you to pursue intimacy with the savior so that you can learn. When the Bible talks about peace of pastor’s understanding, the reason why it’s a peace of pastor’s understanding, is you don’t understand why you have it right now and later what you’re going through. So when you pursue him in the midst of the crisis and he still gives you peace in a rocky boat, that’s when you know your faith is real and vibrant and alive.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen. Dr. Evans, as you think back over your life and your ministry, and you’ve logged a lot of miles. You’ve got some mileage on ministry and just impacting lives really around the world. As you think back on everything that you’ve done, you’ve taught, the new study Bible that’s come out now, your church, your family, everything, what do you want to be remembered by when people think about Tony Evans?
|
||||
|
||||
Dr. Evans: You know, our world view is called the kingdom agenda, which is the visible manifestation of the comprehensive rule of God over every area of life. So I want to be remembered as a person who advance God’s kingdom for God’s glory.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: amen. And giving him all the glory. And Dr. Evans, how can people find out more about your ministry?
|
||||
|
||||
Dr. Evans: They can go on Tonyevans.org. You can find out all of our resources, all of our programming. We have a training center now. People can learn about what this kingdom life is all about comprehensively. Tonyevans.org.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, thank you again. Todd’s going to close us out, but Dr. Evans, from my heart to yours, thank you so much for your impact in my life and for your faithfulness to our Lord, Jesus Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Dr. Evans: Thank you very much.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. I want to echo that as well. Just even what you shared today, there’s such a wealth of information there for our listeners and us personally, that people will be listening to this episode over and over again, I’m sure. We know you’re busy, want to thank you for taking the time out to talk with us and share your heart and share some aspects of ministry. And we thank you even more for just who you are, for your family, for your ministry, what you’ve done over the years. We thank you for your impact, your kingdom impact, and it’s affected both of us in a profound way. We pray for the Lord’s continued blessing on you, your ministry, your family, and everything that you’re doing right now. We just thank you so much for being on the show.
|
||||
|
||||
Dr. Evans: Thank you, God bless you.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: You too, brother.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe if you have not done so already. And if you liked what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review, that does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot for more resources or to ask questions or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
|
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|
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@ -1,103 +0,0 @@
|
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|
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![[S1E1: Who Are the “Prophecy Pros?”.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast, episode one. Who in the world are we and what is this all about? I’m Todd Hampson and I’m with Jeff Kinley.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right. And we’re the Prophecy Pros and we’re here to help you understand Bible prophecy to make sense for you, but most of all to help you in your life and living for Jesus Christ. So let’s get started.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: All right, Todd, so let’s talk about why we’re here. I mean, why the Prophecy Pros? And I think before we even get into that is how each of us kind of got into prophecy and maybe a little bit about our background and that might help people get to know us a little better. Why don’t you begin?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely. I’m primarily a lay leader. I’ve never been on staff at a church, but I’ve always had a love for Bible prophecy. And really that stemmed back to my salvation, when I was 13 was the first time I heard the gospel. And through a series of crazy situations, God led me to a private school when I first heard the gospel and had all these questions. I thought evolution was true, I thought the Bible was a book of fairy tales. And then one gentleman showed me that fulfilled Bible prophecy is the number one apologetic that proves the Bible’s from God. So that got my attention and that really is the thing that unlocked it. It led me to the Lord. And since then I’ve just always had a love for Bible prophecy. And once I started studying it, naturally just fell in love with eschatology.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And about five years ago, looking at the crazy stuff going on in the world, it just seemed like a lot of stuff was lining up with scripture. So I just rolled my sleeves up and dove in and really figured this thing out. How about yourself?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, our stories are very similar in that neither one of us kind of grew up in a Christian home. So we didn’t have a whole lot of background in the Bible and that type of thing. For me, I was your basic drug-dealing hippie in high school, kind of thing. And then the Lord saved me through a friend in high school, and one of the first things that I got exposed to just other than the Bible itself was Bible prophecy. And it really got my attention and made me want to dig deeper into the Bible because a lot of people talk about prophecy in the end times and you think, “Hey, is this true? I mean, is this a sensational topic? And what are they really peddling here?”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So I really wanted to know the truth for myself, but I became a pastor and went to seminary, in Dallas seminary, and became a pastor and then became a youth pastor for many, many years, about 20 something years. And over that time, students would often come to me, “Jeff, teach us the Revelation. Take us through Bible prophecies.” So that got me to begin to teach that to them. And what I found was is that when people are presented with what the Bible says, they’re actually really interested in it. And like you said, today, more than ever, people are looking around the world. They’re going, “Man, something is wrong with our world.” I mean we’re the Titanic man. What’s going on here? We struck this iceberg and how do we as Christians live in this postmodern, post-Christian age?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And I think Bible prophecy has a lot to say about that.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It really does. And in the next episode, we’re going to talk a lot about some of the benefits to studying Bible prophecy, but I just want to acknowledge the elephant in the room in that it is a weird topic. I own that. Yes, if it weren’t for fulfilled Bible prophecy and all the things that prove the Bible’s from God. To think that Jesus is going to crack the sky and rapture us and all this end times events stuff’s going to happen is absolutely insane if it were not for fulfilled Bible prophecy and other evidences that the Bible’s from God. And of course our conversions. The fact that we became Christians the way we did and that internal witness that we know it’s true. There’s one question I get a lot is like why focus on Bible prophecy? Why is that such a key focus of yours? Why not just talk about just the Bible in general or more broad topics?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: What I usually tell people is, well, different people have different interests. God gives people different spiritual gifts. He positions people in different places. Some pastors really focus on family ministry or finding and healing addicts and people that are really broken and bringing them to the cross. All those are good things, but you and I kind of specialize in Bible prophecy and it’s almost like a weird hobby that we can’t really explain, but it’s just something that God put in us. What can you share more about that?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I think a lot of times when people think about Bible prophecy, they think these guys are in the room with tinfoil hats on and they’re kind of channeling some signal from outer space or whatever. But really, we’re grounded in the scripture. We want to help people be grounded in the scripture. That’s really part of what our ministries are really all about. And so we want to help people kind of take away some of that facade that’s in front of Bible prophecy. Some of the myths of Bible prophecy. Some of the obstacles that I think keep people from wanting to study Bible prophecy.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I get a lot of Christians, a lot of people in their twenties and thirties who’ll say to me, “Jeff, I want to study Revelation, but it scares me. I don’t know how to approach it.” That kind of thing. So one of the things that I think we want to do in the Prophecy Pros is help really bring those walls down and tear away those obstacles and just say, “Hey, you can do this.” We’re calling ourselves the Prophecy Pros only because this is what we’re doing. But you can be a Prophecy Pro if you’re listening at home.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And this is something that with a Bible and with just a little bit of coaching, you can understand these things. It’s not rocket science. And God wrote the Bible for us to understand. A lot of people forget that, don’t they?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely. And Jeff breezed past one little detail and that’s, he went to Dallas Theological Seminary, which, some of the people he learned under were big hitters in Bible prophecy. And I think, honestly, that’s another reason God teamed us up is because I have no seminary background, just elbow grease. And you’ve got a ton of elbow grease and seminary background. But both of us are professional authors, professional speakers. We actually do know this. We have gotten paid to do it. So we’re technically professionals. And we don’t say that to brag or tout it, but we do want you to know we’re not fly by the night Bible prophecy guys, making this podcast in our mama’s basement. We really have paid our dues. We really know what we’re talking about.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And throughout this, this is our promise to you, throughout these episodes, we will try to be really clear where the Bible is crystal clear on elements of Bible prophecy and areas where it’s a little bit more subjective or good Bible prophecy teachers may disagree slightly on certain things. So we’ll try to point those things out. But I just wanted to mention that, and reiterate what Jeff said is that you can figure this out. So Jeff, let me ask you this. Who do you think is behind the fact that so many people think revelation and eschatology and Bible prophecy is confusing, scary and irrelevant?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Well, you go back to the very first book of the Bible and there’s a character in there named Satan. And he’s there-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I’ve heard of him.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, heard of him. And the first thing that he does to mankind is to tell them a lie about what God has said. In other words, he lied about God’s word. He gave them misinformation about what God says. And I think today Satan could do one or two things with the Bible. He would, A, he’d try to keep you from the Bible. And B, if you’re getting into the Bible, he would try to mislead you in some way. And I think there’s a lot of white noise, if you will, in the world of Bible prophecy and so there’s a lot of books out there. I mean, go to Amazon, just type in prophecy, boom, here comes this hundreds of books.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So you got to know, how do I know which ones are kind of legit, which ones are predicting blood moons are going to fall on the earth and that kind of stuff? And so we need to have some clarity. And I think that clarity is in scripture. I mean, we have some really great guidelines in the Bible. And part of what the Prophecy Pros podcast wants to do is we want to equip people, encourage them. We want to give them inspiration really to live. It’s really where it boils down to. I mean, prophecy is not just for information, it’s for transformation. It’s there to drive away fear and to replace it with faith and to give people hope and confidence in these perilous times that we’re living in. So that’s really part of the impetus, really part of the boost that we want to communicate to people, and even broadcasting this to them.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely. Personally, I’ve noticed that studying the Bible through the lens and through the backbone of scripture of Bible prophecy, it’s almost like you have a pair of infrared goggles on that you can see things you never saw before. You see how intricately connected the Bible is from cover to cover and that’s the beauty of Bible prophecy. It touches on every area of theology, every key person or figure in the Bible ties back to Bible prophecy. Actually, this year I’m going through my Bible. I’m in Genesis and Exodus now, highlighting original prophecy and when it’s fulfilled with different colors, and literally every single page, there’s prophecy all throughout scripture. So it’s not a fringe topic, I guess is what I’m saying.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It’s not. In fact, it’s very interesting that when Paul wrote his letter to the Thessalonians, in verse Thess two, he wrote to them because some of the false teachers were entering in to the church and teaching them things about the end times that were not true. And so Paul came in and said, “Hey, I don’t want you to be disturbed in your faith. I don’t want you to have anxiety about the future,” that kind of thing. A lot of Christians do when it comes to Bible prophecy, they have this anxiety about themselves. And yet he says, “I don’t want anyone to deceive you.” In fact, it’s very interesting because he says over in verse five of chapter two, he says, “Do you not remember that while I was with you, I was telling you these things?” Which tells us that Bible prophecy was a part of Paul’s curriculum that he did and church planting.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: For new believers.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: For brand new believers. Yeah, because I mean it’s just a part of everything has eschatology, which is a study of the end times is part of understanding who God is and what God wants us to do. And he had previously written to the Thessalonians in chapter four verse Thess four, he says, “I don’t want you to be uninformed about these things.” And I find Todd is, as I travel around, I know you do too. A lot of Christians will come up and say, “I’ve never heard any of this before.” Because either my pastor hasn’t preached on it or, I haven’t read anything about it. And so there’s a lot of not just misinformed information but lack of information about Bible prophecy and so part as we go on in the months and years as we do this thing, we want to give a lot of information. Like I said before, in a way that you can take, there are tools that we’ll be giving you, you can take these tools and your life can be transformed. So I think that’s one of the things that the Prophecy Pros podcast is going to do.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Keep you from misinformation, give us information, keep you from being misled and to give you hope and confidence.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely. Beautifully put and I’m really glad you brought up first and second Thessalonians because I would challenge our listeners to read that now because like you said, that was Paul’s believers one on one class. He was only with them three or four weeks when he planted the church. But he explained the rapture. He explained the second coming. And really what he teaches there is that the second coming or our rapture are our bodies being saved and resurrected is part of our salvation. So a lot of times in churches we’ll teach about salvation spiritually, which is important. Being born again, that’s where we you cross that line of faith, but also part of our salvation is our physical salvation and our future hope that all of this is going somewhere.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And I think in the past maybe 40 or 50 years, there’s been a lot of people obviously from the Jesus movement in the 70s people saying the Lord is going to return soon. And of course left behind series in the 90s all amazing things, and I should mention Late, Great Planet Earth in the 70s was what the bestselling book for like 10 years or something like that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It was.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So a lot of Christians have said, “All right, they’ve been saying that forever.” But really it’s been 40 or 50 years. God is trying to get people’s attention that we’re in the last days and we’ll talk about reasons why that is, biblical reasons why we believe we’re in the waning era of the church age, but for today we really just wanted to encourage them to kind of getting the overview of what we’re doing and why we’re doing it and know that they can understand Bible prophecy and it’s not a fringe topic.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It’s something that every believer, I believe should study. And it brings your faith to life like never before.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It really does Todd. And, the Bible is written in such a way to give us that kind of awakening as it were. I mean, you talk about it’s been 40-50 years, but sometimes someone who’s in a deep sleep takes a little while to wake up. I got sometimes even with our own lives or my own life, he has to tap me on the shoulder. Sometimes he has to shake me by the shoulders to get my attention. If you think about this, people, you think about someone’s last words for they die or for they go off, whatever, are the most important words sometimes and you’re thinking about God could’ve ended the Bible any way he wanted to.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: He could’ve just said, “Hey guys, love each other. It’s all good. See you later.” But God ended his written revelation to mankind or specifically to the church with a book about prophecy. And so that must be something that is important. It’s kind of like, these are your marching orders until I come again, here’s what I want you to end on. And so that’s a whole book there. And so I think that tells us something about the priority of prophecy, about just the importance of it in our daily Christian lives. And again, to make sure that we don’t avoid it. I growing up, I went to my grandmother’s house often, there was this one room of the house where she would never let anybody go into. And I never really understood why, but there were tons of grandkids around.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So now I know why her China was in there and all of a sudden, “Stay out of that room.” But I think a lot of Christians look at Bible prophecy and specifically revelation, like that room, it’s like it’s locked, it’s only for grandma.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: it’s off limits.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It’s off limits, man. You don’t touch it, and we want to help people touch it. We want to help people open that door, walk into that room, explore, see what’s going on and enjoy what God has for us there.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. The analogy I like to use is that not reading the book of revelation is like go into your favorite action movie and leaving before the ending and you don’t even know how it ends. And God is a story teller. I mean, he loves story.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: He uses it all throughout scripture. So the whole Bible is written as this one mega story. So we can’t skip out on the, you know, why we pay our money at the movies and then walk out before the endings.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. And also just to consider some 28% of the Bible, was prophetic when it was written. So I mean that’s a fourth of the Bible. You take that away and you’re gutting the scripture there.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And it’s throughout the entire Bible. It’s not just one book of the Bible. So we’re going to discuss all those topics. We’re going to get into that and we want to answer people’s questions as well. Sending your questions and we’re going to get some responses to those things. And because there are things that you’re interested in, people come to me, they send us emails saying, “Hey, what about this?”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: “What does this mean?” And that’s why we’re here to help answer those questions, dispel those fears so we can move forward with faith and confidence.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely. And a passion that you and I both have and have had for a long time is reaching the next generation with this message. A lot of people, especially the younger generations, millennials, Gen Z, whole nine yards, even Gen X’s, our generation have not heard this message. So we’re really trying to package it, so to speak, in a way like missionaries that go on the field and speak the language of the people that they’re trying to reach. We’re trying to, that’s what we do with our books. That’s what we’re doing this podcast. So I would just say to our listeners, if you know anybody who you think would not be interested in Bible prophecy, but this might get their attention, please share the information about this and, and we’d love for them to listen as well.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Well, I think that’s about all we got for this episode, man. Is there anything else you want to share, Jeff?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: No, I’m just really excited. I mean, that’s really the main point. I’m so pumped about what God’s going to do through this and the people that it’s going to be reached through it. Just from us having this conversation and really bringing you into the conversation and helping our listeners understand, hey, you’re a part of this and we do want to hear from you, but most of all, we want to be here to serve you, to help you, and to cheer you on in your faith with some great stuff from Bible prophecy.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Okay, Todd, so how can people find us? Contact us? What’s the info?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: All right. The simplest way to find that information about us is just to go to prophecyprospodcast.com and there you can find all the information about Jeff’s ministry, my ministry, our books, podcasts, everything else you want to know will all be stored at prophecyprospodcast.com.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Awesome.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Hey, for more resources and show notes, how to contact us, how to ask questions, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. Hey, we’ll see you next episode or maybe not, maybe we’ll see you in the air.
|
||||
|
||||
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|
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|
||||
![[S1E2: The Relevancy of Bible Prophecy.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I’m Jeff Kinley of the Prophecy Pros Podcast, along with Todd Hampson, and Todd, hey, why are we doing this? I mean, what’s the so-what of the Prophecy Pros Podcast?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, that’s what most people want to know, is what’s the practical relevance of it. So what? What’s the big deal? And that’s what we’re going to talk about with you for a few minutes today.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Todd, what I found, and I know you see this too as you travel around, is that people avoid Bible prophecy for a lot of different reasons, and some of them you can really understand why they do it. And some of the reasons that I have encountered as I’ve traveled around is that people just don’t even know about Bible … They don’t even know it’s a thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: They don’t even know it’s in the Bible, it’s kind of like they don’t know that they don’t know. And so, part of what we want to do is to help kind of dispel some of those … Not ignorance, but just some of that lack of information that’s out there.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: The other thing is that a lot of people don’t really hear it taught in their churches, and so, for that reason, they’re not getting it when they go to church, and that type of thing. But I think too, is people have said to me, “Isn’t prophecy just for really learned people? Don’t you have to go to Seminary to understand prophecy?”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So what I like to say is that prophecy is not just for PhDs or what I call PnTs, the Prophecy Nerd Types, you know? Those kind of people who just-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That would be us.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That would be us a little bit, yeah, okay. We’re nerds, we’re geeks, we admit it. But that’s kind of the whole thing, it’s that it’s not just for those people, but it’s written for … The Bible’s written for the average person, the average Christian. But I think a lot of times too, people avoid Bible prophecies because, I mean, it does require a little bit of study.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Think about it, they call it bible study for a reason. But to understand really anything in depth in the Bible, you have to do a little bit of research, a little bit of study, you have to get into the Scripture a little bit more … And it’s not HTML code. You’re not writing this hidden Hammurabi’s code kind of thing from the Egyptians or whatever.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But I think too, people have said to me, “Jeff, Revelation’s scary to me. I don’t want to face that.” Maybe they’ve seen apocalyptic movies and that kind of stuff, which we’re going to a whole episode, by the way, on just Hollywood’s obsession-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I can’t wait to talk about that with you. But there are a lot of difficult truths, obviously, when you face the End Times and that type of thing. But God didn’t write prophecy to scare us, He wrote is to comfort us, to let us know that He’s in charge, He’s got a plan, He’s got this thing. But many other reasons why people don’t study Bible prophecy, another thing too, is that people, “Well, there’s some conflicting views on Bible prophecy.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: We’re going to talk about those views, and one of the things that I’m looking forward to, Todd, is to lay out some of the different interpretations that people have on the End Times, and talk about some strengths of different views, but to let people really make up their own minds, and study the Scripture for yourself.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And a couple of other quick reasons is that I think people seeing … seeing that prophecy is sort of foggy, it’s far-off, it’s Sci-fi, and I like to say it’s sort of a mishmash of Interstellar, The Book of Eli, Mad Max, and The Walking Dead. It’s like all of those kind of put together, whoa. It’s a little bit intense there.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But again, it’s something that we can handle. And I think finally, the thing that people really want to know more than anything else is, so what? What difference does it make to my life?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Because in the end, we’re people on this earth, we’re Christians, we’re following Jesus. We want to live for God. So how does prophecy help me live better for God? And that’s one of the payoffs that we really want to present with the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely man, beautifully put. I mean, it’s not a pie in the sky, we’re up in our ivory tower just studying random obscure bits of Scripture. And I think for our generation, or for most Christians that I talk to, their connotation of Bible prophecy is a dude on the corner with a sandwich board and a bullhorn screaming at you that the end is coming.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And like you said, there’s different views, there’s fights and arguments, and all this stuff muddies the waters a little bit. And I believe, and we talked about this a little bit in Episode One, that the enemy’s done a great job of getting … of muddying the water and getting people’s eyes off of Scripture.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And like you said, it does take study, but it’s a study that’s worth doing. It’s interesting to me that the Bible, like a child can understand salvation. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you’ll be saved.” Most of my kids came to the Lord when they were really young. First grade, second grade, that kind of thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But when it comes to deeper things of theology, or especially eschatology in the End Times and Bible prophecy, like you said, you got to roll your sleeves up a little bit. But it’s an amazing journey, and that’s what we’re trying to show people, is it’s not a boring, dry study. It is something that is extremely relevant to how you live day-to-day.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It impacts how you feel, it impacts how you think, it impacts how you look at the world. It impacts what you live for. It really gets your mind off of the things of the world, and onto Christ. And we also talked in Episode One about how Paul introduced the whole concept of the Second Coming to early believers, as part of their Believers 101 class.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But also, First and Second Testaments and he talked a lot about basically working hard while you’re here, and being a witness every which way you can, but at the same, anticipating and looking forward to the Lord’s return. And we’ve kind of lost that art. We’re so focused on things today and what we’re dealing with on a day-to-day basis, that we’re forgetting to look for the Lord.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And what you and I want to show in this podcast today is that there are practical, really so what things that have to do with studying Bible prophecy, things that affect us in a very real way. What are one or two of the key ways you see a study of Bible prophecy impacting us in a practical way?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, I find it very interesting, Todd, that in Revelation, the last book of the Bible, which is the Paul book about prophecy, that he begins the whole book, in Verse 3, he says, “Blessed are those who hear these words and who heed them.” And in fact, that’s the only book in the entire Bible that promises a specific blessing to people who engage the words of God in this thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Of course, the word of God gives us blessings all over, but God wanted us to do that. He wants us to get into the words of the prophecy, and so, when we do that, there’s a practical benefit that comes to us from doing that, and I think one of them is, it lets us know what’s going to happen in the world. That’s kind of like, if you know something is going to happen, you can prepare for it, or you can avoid it, or whatever.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And I think one of the things that God does with prophecy is that He kind of lays the map out. In fact, think about this Todd, God did that in the Old Testament, when He laid out the map for the Messiah and all the prophecies concerning Jesus’ First Coming, they knew what to expect. And of course, they were … A lot of them missed it, because they were misinterpreting or focusing on the wrong things.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But that’s why, all the more reason why we should make sure that we know what God says about the future, so that we, when things come into our world, we can go, “Hey, how does that jive with Scripture? How does that mix up with that?”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, it gives you a blueprint. I mean, it really does give you kind of a roadmap of what to expect, so that when you see things happening in the world, and we’ll talk about some very specific things in future podcasts, but when you see things happening in the world, you can see how it’s lining up with Bible prophecy. And I love that you pointed out Revelations 1:3, or Revelation 1:3. It’s the only promise, like you said, in Scripture, that, “If you read this, you will be blessed.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And it’s the one book that Satan seems to be able to get people’s eyes off of. And also, just naturally as humans, we have an innate need to understand our origins and where we’re going, and Genesis and Revelation give us the answer to both of those things. I mean, if you knew anybody who was adopted, a child, or anything like that, adopted children still want to know about their natural roots.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: “Where did I come from?” They want to know who their natural parents were and all that kind of stuff. And just like that, we want to know where we came from, so there’s a direct connection between Genesis and Revelation, and there’s a thread of prophecy that connects those two.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And one thing we should point out too that just hit me is that the Bible is the only book that has fulfilled Bible prophecy as a proof for-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yes.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And that claims to be the word of God. The Quran doesn’t claim to be the word of God, no Hindu or Buddhist writing claims to be the word of God, it’s just philosophy, or in the case of Islam, they say it’s the words of a prophet, and then they have some teaching materials. But Scripture is alone in any book of the world that claims to be the word of God, and backs it up with very specific, 100% fulfillment track record of fulfilled Bible prophecy, so that should get everyone’s attention.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And I found there are multiple practical ways that Bible prophecy impacts our lives. The three that stand out to me the most, that are kind of … There’s several within these three, but discipleship, Evangelism, and developing a biblical worldview.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Personally, I have grown probably more than any other time in my life from studying Bible prophecy, because when you get God’s word into you, you can’t help but change. And also, when you sense the relevance of God’s word and the fact that the Lord is returning at some point, it gives us a sense of urgency and a sense of, “I want to live with more purity, I want to live with more purpose and passion and intensity, and I want to make sure I’m doing what God’s called me to do. I don’t want to waste any time.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And then, on the Evangelism side, the more we get our mind off of the world and onto the fact that the Lord’s returning at some point, and that all this is heading somewhere, it lights a fire under us to evangelize, to tell other people about Jesus. We want them to be with us, and it lights a fire there, and then developing a biblical worldview.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: When you study Bible prophecy, it touches on all aspects of Scripture. We talked about that a little bit in the last episode, but it really gives you a biblical worldview. So when you see crazy stuff going on in the news, and screaming talking heads at each other, you can make sense of it. “Okay, this is what’s going on here.” There’s a biblical worldview that we can look, it’s a grid we can look at the world with, that makes sense of a lot of things and gives us a lot of clarity.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. And you talked about just the Bible’s accuracy through prophecy, I think prophecy is an incredible apologetic for our time today, because people want to know real answers. They want to know, “Give me something solid, don’t just tell me to have faith. Give me something solid.” And that’s what the Bible does.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: If we look at all the prophecies, I mean, the over 300 prophecies fulfilled in Jesus, from just His messianic prophecies and the chances of that happening is like one in 48 …
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: A hundred thousand degrees. It’s like so incredibly ridiculous that it’s an unmistakable proof that He is the Son of God. Well, Bible prophecy is just like that too, and every single prophecy about Christ’s First Coming was fulfilled literally and exactly the way God said it would.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And I think of it this way, I kind of think in terms of sports or whatever. It’s like if you had a guy who was batting 1,000, like every time he got at the plate, he got a hit, get a home run, so like … That guy’s getting drafted, okay?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Or some guy who just nails three-pointers from La La Land.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It’s like, “Dude, you’re going to play NBA, guarantee, all the time.” So, that’s the way the Bible is, it has proved itself time and time again from an archeological standpoint, from a prophetic standpoint, from a literary standpoint. I mean, the Scripture stands. So now, here we are, in the days in which we live, with all these prophecies about what’s going to happen.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And some of them have already happened in our age, some of them are in the process of coming together. We’re going to talk about all those prophecies on this podcast. But what are some of the prophecies that we see coming together? So those are the kind of things that I think even a skeptic has to go …
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Exactly.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: “I don’t know that I believe yet, but that’s very interesting.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That is like these nine prophecies have all come true, and there’s a 10th one. So why should I not believe the 10th one’s going to happen? So those are some of the things that we want to point out in terms of the benefits. And I have to say one more thing too, is that for someone who loves God and loves Jesus and loves His word, engaging in prophecy just really makes you delight more in the Bible.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I tell you, I have underlined so much of my Bible, and I always have done that, but it’s just the idea of, “Man, God, your word is just, I mean, it’s jumping off the page.” I mean, it’s just in full HD, 4K, everything, because of what we’re seeing happening in our world right now. So there are tons and tons of more benefits to Bible prophecy, those are just some of them off the top of our heads.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And that’s probably what we want more than anything else for this podcast, is for people to say, “Man, you’ve impacted me in such a way that I feel like I can know, and I can live.” And we say that, “Learn it, live it.” Right?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right. Learn it, live it. And you’re exactly right. I mean, God wants us to love His word in that way, and be impacted in that way. In one of my books, I use the analogy of a couple of parents who’re about to have a baby and somebody gives them a baby book, and in the baby book is every key detail of that baby’s life from birth to college, all the key milestones, the high points, the low points.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And at first, they just think it’s kind of a gag gift, but after the first couple years and every single thing that they said was going to happen to that baby in the first two years happens, it starts to get their attention. Then, by the time they get to high school and college, and they’re like, “Okay, he’s going to college exactly where they said,” and all these details, it starts to get your attention, it starts to really … You start to respect it and understand it more.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: and that’s another thing we really want to challenge people to do, like you said, it’s just to know that fulfilled Bible prophecy should be such an attention-getter, even if someone’s … And I pray that there are people listening to this podcast who don’t know the Lord, who think that the Bible’s a book of fairy tales. Please, test it for yourself.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Look at some of these prophecies, like Jeff said, over 300 of just the first birth of Christ, First Coming. There’s even things on our day, Israel becoming a nation again in 1948, every Old Testament prophet, except for Jonah, predicted that Israel would become a nation again in the last days, in the End Times, so … And we’ll talk about that a lot as time goes on, but there are several things like that, kingdoms that Daniel talked about, and four successive kingdoms that Daniel predicted before they happened that came to pass exactly like they did, and so many other things.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: In other words, it’s not just like self-fulfilling prophecies or prophecies that were fulfilled a year later. These are, we’re talking 15, 2,000, 2600 years later, very specific, very detailed prophecies being fulfilled. And again, that shouldn’t give us a dry passion to read the Word, but as we get into it, like you said, you just bump into hidden gems, and you …
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: The Bible says that God’s word is alive and active. It does something to us when we engage with it, so the more we engage with it, the better.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen. And those kind of questions that we’ve just kind of brought up right now, there are going to be questions that our listeners will want answers to. And one of the ways that they can get those answers is to contact us. So how do people contact us and ask us questions about Bible prophecy?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yes. We definitely want to hear from you, because we don’t want to just shoot in the dark. We think we know what questions you might have, but we want to know for sure, so we see this as a conversation, and we invite you to submit your questions. And you can find out all the information you need about us on prophecyprospodcast.com. And there, you can post questions, you can find information about Jeff’s ministry, my ministry, anything you’d want to know about this podcast and what we do.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And I’d say one more thing. We’re taking this Prophecy Pros Podcast thing on the road, man.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yes.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. So we’re coming to a town near you, hopefully, doing what we call the Daniel Project. And just in a nutshell, Todd, what is the Daniel Project, and what do we hope to accomplish with people?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So the Daniel Project is kind of a one-day event geared towards Millennials and Gen Z, but of course, everybody’s welcome, but we’re trying to really talk about Bible prophecy in a way that helps them know how to live in a post-Christian culture, just like Daniel did. He lived in a pagan culture, but he still lived for the Lord, and also, there’s a ton of Bible prophecy in the Book of Daniel.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So we’re going to talk about practical ways to live in today’s world, and study Bible prophecy in a way that makes it relevant and real to you.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. Daniel did … He lived in some challenging times, right? And so are we. We’re in some really challenging times, much like Daniel, much like the early Church, and a lot of Christians are like, “Man, I’m being swept out to sea. What’s going on here? So how do I do it?” Daniel Project is going to do that, and in fact, we’re getting ready to do that with about 600 high school students here soon.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And so, this is going to kind of be our test market. It’s going to be exciting to see what happens, but yeah, the Daniel Project, you can get all the information on the podcast’s website.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, so stay tuned, and go to prophecyprospodcast.com for everything about us.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe if you have not done so already, and if you liked what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review, that does us a huge favor, and helps us out a lot. For more resources, or to ask questions or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And a major thank you, major shout-out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
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|
||||
|
||||
![[S1E3: Hollywood’s Obsession with the Apocalypse.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Welcome once again to the Prophecy Pros Podcast. Jeff, what are we talking about today?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Man, we’re talking about Hollywood’s obsession with the apocalypse. I mean, isn’t that crazy. There are so many movies that have been produced that have come out about the end times, but apocalyptic events, past, present and future that what’s the deal with that? I mean is there something there we can talk about? A couple of years ago I wrote a book called As It Was in the Days of Noah and just talking about prophecy and how Jesus said the end times will mirror the days of Noah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: One of the reasons I wrote that book, Todd, was because they were coming out with this movie called Noah with Russell Crowe, and if we know one thing about Hollywood and the Bible is they typically get it wrong and of course it was a swing and a miss as well, but it really kind of heightened people’s awareness of the end times, apocalyptic events and that type of thing and it really brings up the question as, are we now living in a time where we’re [inaudible] history is sort of converging into this biblical intersection that’s been prophesied thousands of years ago and we see these things that are happening in our world and people are asking… the Christians are asking are these signs of the times? Because I read recently a recent Pew Research poll said that some 41% of Americans adults believe we are living in the end times. ^8f7a62
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|
||||
Todd: Wow.
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|
||||
Jeff: And when you ask that question to church churchgoers, about 77% believe we’re living in the end times, but I think it’s very important to consider the fact that we’re not just looking at the world, looking at the headlines, looking at Facebook, Twitter, Instagram feed, and then getting our theology and our beliefs based on that. We want to make sure the Bible is our GPS on this thing and make sure that what scripture says is what we follow, but even with that, there are a lot of ways I think that people kind of miss how to approach this whole idea of prophecy and just a few minutes I want you to really get into some of the signs that are happening in the world today but I think one question that people ask me a lot is that Jeff, how can I know, how can I understand Bible prophecy?
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||||
Jeff: And so there’s a couple of things that… principals I think we need to talk about and one of them is the fact that prophecies are kind of like road signs sometimes. You see a road sign and you want to kind of know what’s the road sign telling me to do. And part of the nature of Bible prophecy is that some prophecy is revealed over time. It’s almost like a pixelated photograph that you can’t really understand it. Is not really defined, colors and that kind of thing but over time it kind of comes into view, comes into focus if you will and some Bible prophecy is like that, and so as you read the Bible and as you see some of these things that may be a little blurry even those prophets in the Old Testament the Bible tells us that they look forward to seeing these prophecies unfolded and yet they couldn’t see how they would all together. They all had different parts of it and that leads me to the second principle of prophecies is that some of them contain like missing pieces.
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||||
Jeff: In other words, not every Old Testament prophet was given the whole picture of the coming Messiah. This guy had one part of it, this guy had another part of it and it sort of like Wheel of Fortune. The consonants are there but the vowels are not there so you’re trying to solve the puzzle without having all the puzzle pieces together and what the Bible does over time is fill in those pieces of the puzzle. Some people make prophecy and they mistake certain things for Bible prophecy.
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Jeff: People say things like, oh, you know, well there was an earthquake here, there was a tornado, a typhoon here, and they try to directly tie that into Bible prophecy, and I think that’s one of the obstacles or the pitfalls rather that we have to avoid is authoritatively saying that this event is definitely prophesied in the Bible. There’s not a verse for that that it’s really hard to kind of make that fit. Although it may be a part of something general that’s happening, at the same time we have to be real careful about mistaking prophecy for something else or misidentifying prophecy.
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Jeff: By the same token, Todd as you know, I mean sometimes it’s just plain as it can be. I mean, it’s like the Bible says it. Boom, this happened and you’re going to talk about one of those today. I’m excited to hear about that. One final thing I would say just to kind of setting this whole thing up, is that some prophetic signs that we see are discernible. I mean, you can actually discern it, but you can’t tell where it is. You can’t tell where on the timeline it is. It’s like we used to drive to El Paso across Texas. It would take us like years to get across Texas. Ridiculous state.
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Todd: It’s a country to itself.
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||||
Jeff: Yeah. Exactly. It’s like going where no man has gone before and we would go to El Paso and we drive like 15 hours and the way you know you’re getting close to El Paso is you see this range of mountains called the Franklin Mountains and when you see the Franklin Mountains, you’re like, man dude, there’s hope in the future. We’re going to make it kind of thing, but it’s like you keep driving and the Franklin Mountains don’t seem to get any closer. You know they’re there but you just don’t know when you’re going to get to them because of the depth perception problem there as you’re driving.
|
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Jeff: I think prophecy is like that sometimes. We can see things in the Bible that are specifically been prophesied but God hasn’t put a timetable on that. We always have to be careful about putting a date, you know, an hour on different prophecies. I mean, that’s way… a lot of people sensationalize prophecy today and so we have to be real careful about that kind of thing but yet we can still see the prophecy that’s actually going to happen.
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Todd: Absolutely.
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Jeff: And again what we mentioned last time is that the Bible has a 100% accuracy record with regards to things that are going to happen in the future, so we don’t have to be afraid. God’s got this thing in control but we have to use some principles of interpretation and say what the Bible says and not try to go beyond that in an authoritative manner. With that in mind, let’s talk about Hollywood for a second. Again, what are some of the other Hollywood blockbusters that have come out about the end times, apocalypse that kind of thing.
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|
||||
Todd: Well, I mean, of course the big famous ones you can think of, Armageddon and zombie ones, all kinds of… but even recently, like original programming on Netflix and some of the others, there’s been things that are [inaudible] straight up, no holds barred right about the end times. It’s a topic that’s on everybody’s mind. Honestly, even I think a lot of the global warming stuff is people sensing that this world is winding down. Jesus called them birth pains and said there was all kinds of natural things, calamities that would take place in increasing measure like birth pains as we got close to the time of the end but anyway, yeah, Hollywood just… it’s the elephant in the room. Everybody knows there’s something broken, there’s something… it’s winding down. This can’t go on forever the way it is. Certain things are just getting worse and worse.
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Todd: I just read a article the other day from CNBC, completely secular newscast and it says almost 40% of the world’s countries will witness civil unrest in 2020. I mean that speaks volumes. That’s not cyclical. That’s not… I mean, yes, there has always been civil unrest but it’s at a different level now and… so it’s the elephant in the room that everybody knows is there or the 800 pound gorilla that we got to stare in the eyes but the beauty is we have hope, we know the answers and like you said, Bible prophecy does have the answers and it is kind of giving one puzzle piece at a time, which is why you really need to study all of scripture, but there are some simple ways to put handles on that. Like I often tell people who are new to Bible prophecy, study Daniel, the Olivet discourse and the book of Revelation.Todd: Daniel’s kind of the Revelation of the Old Testament, so to speak. It kind of… it’s the framework that everything else fits into and the Olivet discourse was Jesus is second longest teaching and it was about the end times. It was all about end time events and that fits into Daniel and then of course John with Revelation gives us a lot more of the details of the tribulation period and whereas in Daniel, he was told seal up the book, it’s not time yet. John was told it’s unsealed, it’s revealed. It’s all right here. It’s definitely… I guess what I’m saying is it’s definitely something God wanted us to know. It’s not super easy to figure out, it takes a little bit of work but if you use logic and if you start with the premise that God’s word is ordained by God, it’s God-breathed. That the Holy Spirit, just like it says in Peter, that the Holy Spirit breathed it into existence and that every single word is there on purpose, then you can be confident when you kind of put those puzzle pieces together.
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Todd: And as you do, a picture will emerge that gives you some really concrete things.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: That’s a great point though you made about Daniel. Daniel says… God says seal it up. Okay. Then you get to Matthew and Jesus in the Olivet discourse and they said, Jesus, “What’s going to be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
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|
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Todd: Right.
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|
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Jeff: And Jesus didn’t say, guys, we don’t talk about the end times. It’s like… no, you’re not supposed to… No he told them. I mean he spent this long discourse telling them all these-
|
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|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
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|
||||
Jeff: …specific things that we read about in Revelation and then of course Revelation. I mean the word revelation, the great word is apokalypsis, which we get our word apocalypse from, but it literally means the revealing. It means to reveal something. God does want to kind of fold that thing and we see sort of with… like you were saying the headlines and the things that are going on in the world today, whether it be with the climate change, or the threat of nuclear war or with countries that are imploding economically or whatever, collapsing. All these things that are getting people’s attention. Certain nations that are making threats against Israel and potential World War III but on the other hand you’ve got Hollywood doing all these other things, you know, giant meteor’s going to come destroy the world or aliens are going to come.
|
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|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Like world wars kind of thing. World War Z like you mentioned, all that stuff. Well we know when we leave the movies, we don’t leave the movies really scared. We just go, wow, that was entertaining but then we look at the real world we go, well this is not entertaining.
|
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|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: This stuff that’s really happening, so it’s kind of like we have the fantasy on the one hand. We have the fear on the other hand but now here comes the faith.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Amen.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Now what does the Bible say? What are some of the… sort of the big Mount Everest prophecies that the Bible predicts for the end times?
|
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|
||||
Todd: I mentioned, I like teaching people who have never engaged with Bible prophecy before and so I try to find simple ways to put handles on it for them. I’ll often point people to just one big section of scripture. I’ll say, read Ezekiel 36 through 39. You’ve got the valley of the dry bones in 36 and it’s… a lot of times I’ll hear people equate that to God reviving us or salvation, like New Testament stuff but really it’s all about the nation of Israel becoming a nation again and I mentioned in the last podcast that every single Old Testament prophet except for Jonah predicted the return that Israel would come into his land again after a long period of time when its people were dispersed all over the world and harassed everywhere.
|
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|
||||
Todd: I mean it couldn’t be more specific about what scripture says and then followed up right by that… right after that. After the rebirth of Israel is what’s called the war of Gog and Magog and that’s in Ezekiel 38 and 39 but primarily 38. It talks about… and we don’t have time to kind of unpack why these are the countries but you can do research whether it’s with Josephus, the old historian of the time and other extra biblical references, but basically the nations that are described are the three primary ones, are Russia, Iran and Turkey and they are partnered now for the first time in history. They’ve been enemies. I mean it just… it made no sense even 20 years ago, even 10 years ago.
|
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|
||||
Todd: It made no sense for them to be allied and even the secondary countries that scripture says in Ezekiel 30 are going to be with them. They’re now forming partnerships with, and what I tell people too is before Israel became a country like in the 1600s, early 1700s the Puritans were among first and some other people saying that, but the Bible says Israel is going to be a nation again. They’re going to become a literal physical nation again and people said, you all are crazy. Well, it happened. Just like scripture says. Every detail of the condition that led up to it and even how they had to fight for their existence after it.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Even the fact that before they are in their land, it was a desolate wasteland. Now they export fruit to Europe and actually now this lines up with Ezekiel 38, they just discovered the biggest oil and gas fields in the Mid East right off the coast of Israel and some areas on land to where now they’re actually just last week or a couple of weeks ago they partnered with, or they signed an agreement with Greece and Cyprus. They’re going to be piping oil and gas to Europe. Basically they’re cutting into Russia’s only means of really sustaining their military, which again, this is a lot of details I’m throwing at you, but it all ties if you read Ezekiel 38 it all ties in perfectly and the reason I bring that up, the Puritans was… they used to say they were crazy 10, 20, 30 years ago. Prophecy teachers that were saying Iran, Russia and Turkey are going to ally together to the North of Israel in Syria, which isn’t even really a country anymore.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: People told them you’re crazy. Look at it. The landscape don’t look anything like that. Well now in real time right before our eyes, this is happening.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s a great example of how we can see what the Bible says first and then look at what’s happening in the world.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: …instead of just seeing what’s happening in the world and making some wild predictions or doomsday scenario, whatever. You mentioned Israel becoming a nation again. I mean, the Jews are the only people group in world history, in the history of mankind that have been enslaved, been in captivity, and then been dispersed for 20 centuries to 70 different nations and all of a sudden… and their language had died, their language is gone. Somehow, some way they retain their identity and they began… really beginning in the 1800s, 19th century, really flooding back to the holy land and like you said, God began to bless the land again as they came back.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Now today as we speak, more Jews are living in Israel than in any time since the first century, since they were scattered in 70AD and they… like I said, God is blessing that land but also they’re still pouring in. They’re just pouring in day after day after day and on May 14th which is oddly enough, my birthday.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Awesome.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: 1948, not my birth year okay. I want to make that very clear. Okay. Israel became a nation again officially and if you were to… read some of the prophecies about like you said, the dry bones of Israel being rebirthed and that type of thing, before that date, I mean a lot of people would have said, no, you’re crazy man. There’s no way they can do it. I don’t know how you can interpret those Old Testament passages any other way now that Israel has become a nation again and in fact, as you know, Todd, the book of Revelation, many of the events in Revelation cannot take place unless Israel is living in the land.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well guess what folks, they’re in the land right now and they retaken possession of land. That to me as you were talking about, is one of those mountain peaks that is just like staring people in the face. It’s undeniable.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And Jeff in one of your books, I’m blanking on which one it is at the moment, but you use the analogy of an airplane crash at the top of a mountain and how you all went looking for it because it was so big that the Air Force just never recovered it. They just left it up there and for a while you were wondering man are we even on the right mountain peak? But then the closer you got to the actual crash site you saw a bolt here, a spring there. You started finding pieces and then generally the closer you got to the crash site, the more that you saw and that’s the same… I love that analogy by the way and that’s the same thing we see with the super sign.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Once Israel was a nation again, all the other signs that Jesus talked about in the Olivet discourse like birth pains are ramping up big. All this other stuff that we’ll get into in future podcasts fell into place after Israel became a nation again and I just want to challenge listeners to really analyze that. Really digest that like is there any way any of that’s coincidence? If not, the Bible is true and we need to really pay attention to it and again, we just tried to hit on this all the time. That stunning Bible prophecy is a topic that just brings the entire Bible to life in a real practical way in real time.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It really does and I’m reminded of what John wrote in 1 John chapter two. I believe is verse 18 where he says, children, it is the last hour. People say, are we living in the last days? Well, guess what? According to scripture, the last days began with the New Testament church. With the first century and so the real question is, are we living in the last of the last days?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And I think as we look at these Bible prophecies like Israel being fulfilled again, it’s like God… he paused the prophetic clock for like 2000 years and now he started that clock again. It’s like the old hourglass turned upside down. The sand has started coming down. Now we don’t know how long that’s going to take-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But it does tell us that something is going on and I like to quote my friend Mark Hitchcock says. He says when you’re in the grocery store and you hear Christmas music plan and it’s not even Thanksgiving yet, you know that Thanksgiving is near because Christmas music is playing already, and when we hear the music of prophecy being played in the world as it were through some of these fulfilled signs that tells us that we are nearer than we’ve ever been before.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: …and in fact very near because those signs are being fulfilled. I would say like you said, Israel is that miracle sign. It’s been called the miracle in the Mediterranean. It’s sort of like the super sign of the end times and so we cannot avoid Israel and we cannot avoid the fact that she’s become a nation again and that leads us to other Bible prophecies, doesn’t it?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It really does. From the way culture is now. Is it first or second Timothy that talks about the coarseness of culture that men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of pleasure, lovers of money, rude… having the form of godliness but denying its power. I mean, every descriptor there lines up with our day. I mean you can tell a lot by a culture from its art. If you look at our musicians are… and I’m not trying to be crotchety old man saying no kids no music today, but just really when you look at the way music it is, I mean it’s always been edgy, but if you look at it now, I was actually… a couple of years ago when one of my kids was in middle school and then went to a roller rink in our area and it was a kid’s day.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I mean it was middle schoolers and down. There were birthday parties whole nine yards and they were playing some of the most, and again, I’m not… approve by any means, but they were playing some of the most vulgar stuff on this giant video screen in the middle of the roller skating rink and literally, I remember seeing this little girl, I get choked up when I think about it, when I think about it.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: This little girl was looking up at it, taking it in, and you could see the concern on her face. Number one, her innocence was being lost. You could just see like, I’ve never seen that before to where I went to the manager and I said, dude, do you all really have to play this? And he was like, we got to give the people what they want and I said a couple of other things to him. Just said I wouldn’t be coming back. My kids wouldn’t be coming back and that it was kind of ridiculous but anyway, culture is coarsening. There are spiritual signs whether it’s revival in Iran and some of the darkest areas of the world to… we’re in a post Christian culture now. The people are leaving churches in droves and there’s all kinds of apostasy creeping in. Those and many other signs are all occurring in our day.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: They are, I mean, church attendance is on decline, on a huge decline. The largest “religious group” today in America, according to [Barna] is what he calls the [NANS 00:19:39].
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: The NANS.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Those who have no religious affiliation of whatsoever and I know that many of our listeners who are listening to us right now they’re thinking [inaudible] church really ain’t that big of a deal anymore to a lot of people and it’s kind of one of those things where maybe the church has not shown its relevance to your life and that type of thing and you’ve got churches that are kind of pendulum swinging everywhere from being full on entertainment venues to people that are just preaching with loud voices and you’re like, gosh, I don’t really fit in either one of those places, just give me something for my life and I want to know God better.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Part of what we’re seeing happen, as you say, in the end times, the Bible predicts a falling away from the faith, which we’re seeing whole denominations depart from the Bible. Just recently, the Methodist Church has completely split of the homosexual issue, that type of thing but also you think about some of these other things related to Israel. The Bible says that there’s going to be a temple, there’s going to be rebuilt, the Jewish temple. I believe it’s going to be built on the Temple Mount and that’s where the sacrifices will be re-instituted again. We hear about that in Daniel chapter nine. We hear about it in Revelation chapter 11 and you say, okay, so the Bible says the temple’s going to be rebuilt, so what?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, here’s the so what. In 1987 the Temple Institute was founded and there are group of Jewish believers that are committed to the reinstitution of the Jewish priesthood and the rebuilding of the temple and just recently, all three Israeli candidates for their leadership in the whole country of Israel, they’re all pro-temple. They all say we want to build it during our administration. The other thing too is that you can go on the templeinstitute.org and find these things, their blueprints they’ve drawn up for the temple. They are training priests by the dozens. They are even instituting sacrifices. Does that tell us when it’s going to happen? No it doesn’t but it does tell us that God is renewing that interest and that passion in the Jewish people and they’re ready and as we know anything about the Jews, we know that when they put their minds to do something, it’s probably going to happen but in this case, God’s going to make it happen through prophecy.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: The third temple that’s going to be rebuilt in Jerusalem is a highly significant event and location and happening in end times prophecy.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: You and I talked about in episode one how we both came from unchurch backgrounds and I was a teenager and I remember one of the things that tripped me up was like that the Bible said they would re-institute sacrifices in the end times and I was like, that don’t even make sense. Like who does that? Who’s got a passion or a drive to even do that anymore? That’s just so old school and here it is happening in our day. You cannot make this stuff up. Everything that even I thought was crazy is now happening and three other sign categories came to mind as you were talking.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: One of them is just globalism versus nationalism and a lot of people don’t realize even the division in our country. They see it as left and right. Democrats versus Republicans but really when you look at like Brexit, the impeachment and Israel going for an unprecedented third round of elections, it’s really globalism versus nationalism. It’s really… and the reason that’s biblical and prophetic is that we learn from scripture that in the end times it will be a global government run by one guy and associated with that is another category and that’s technology. The technology that is needed for the things in Revelation and Daniel to happen have never been in existence until our day. I mean, we could do a whole podcast on that but from weaponry to artificial intelligence to surveillance technology, I mean there’s so many things.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Even simple things like Revelation says that the two witnesses being killed in Jerusalem will be seen by the entire world. Well, that wasn’t even possible until recent times. I mean, why would John write such an insane thing that obviously was not possible at that time. And then a third category is Jesus does talk about in the Olivet discourse that earthquakes would increase, and obviously we see that all kinds of world catechisms are increasing every time something happens, whether it’s a typhoon or flood or earthquake, it’s unprecedented. It’s once in a thousand year flood. It’s birth pains and one of the most compelling things that I saw, and I used it in a Bible study I taught a couple months ago, was I found a video that was made from a secular source, but it was using USGS earthquake data from 1900 until current times and literally you… and it’s all condensed.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It’s about a minute and a half long and you can see as time goes along, especially once Israel was in the land again, all of a sudden earthquakes just started lighting up everywhere and by the end you’re just like, they’re just all over the place. That sign definitely is another one that… like you said, when one big nature thing happens, you can run into dangerous territory saying this means that but when you look at the overall data and the overall thing that lines up with what Jesus said, it’s another one that should get our attention.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Just another prophecy coincidence, right?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Exactly. It’s accidental.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, and really leading into our next episode. I think this is important because you mentioned globalism, you mentioned the fact that really the world kind of becoming one and something has to trigger that. Something has to help cause that to happen. We’re going to talk about that-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I can’t wait.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: …in the next Prophecy Pros Podcast, what is the triggering event that’s going to launch us into… launch the world rather into this final age. So that’s next time.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely. We can’t wait to share that with you. Any information you want to find out about us, just go to prophecyprospodcast.com and also again, we just want to reiterate this. If you have questions or there’s things you want to know about, things you want us to talk about, please let us know. We want this to be a conversation and we want to make sure that we’re hitting the mark with what you guys are listening to. Again, just go to prophecyprospodcast.com.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Look forward to it.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And for more resources and show notes, how to contact us, how to ask questions, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. Hey, we’ll see you next episode or maybe not. Maybe we’ll see you in the air.
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,291 +0,0 @@
|
||||
|
||||
![[S1E4: Phil Cooke – Prophecy, Culture and Hollywood.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Welcome to the Prophecy Pros Podcast. I’m Jeff Kinley, along with Todd Hampson. And we have a very special guest today, who we’re super excited about. And I’m going to let Todd tell you a bit more about him.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Oh yeah. Today, we are privileged to have Phil Cooke on to interview with us. And I’ve known Phil for a few years remotely. We’ve pitched a few things in L.A., and connected with him there, and have just seen what he’s been doing over the years. I love this quick blurb from his website. It says “Phil has produced TV and film programming in more than 60 countries around the world, and in the process have been shot at, survived two military coups, fallen out of a helicopter, and, in Africa, have been threatened with prison. And during that time his company, the Cooke Media Group in Los Angeles, California, he’s helped some of the largest Christian and nonprofit organizations in the world use media to tell their story in a changing, disrupted culture.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:And the reason we’re having him on the show is because we want to get his take on how we can convey Bible prophecy to a new generation. And another exciting aspect is we really want to see what he’s seen internationally as he travels around the world. What is the sense of the church in terms of the end times and Bible prophecy and the urgency to share this message? So, we are thrilled to have Phil on with us today, and let’s get started.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:All right. All right. Welcome to the Prophecy Pros Podcast. Today, we have an extremely special guest we’re interviewing, and it’s Phil Cooke from Cooke Pictures. This guy has done so many amazing things in the world of ministry and branding and messaging. And we just were thrilled to have him on to talk to him about various aspects of how we can communicate what we’re doing to a new generation. Phil, welcome to the show.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:I am thrilled to be here. This is really going to be fun.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:We got the communications guru here, okay?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:I don’t know about that.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:This is the guy. He’s got the head gear. Everything. It really, really fits well.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Well, we, with Bible prophecy, obviously, it’s a complex topic. There’s different views and stuff like that. We have a particular view pre-trib. But really what we’re trying to do is communicate that to new generations in a way that helps them see the Bible is God’s word from Revelation to… I mean, from Genesis to Revelation and you can study it, you can count on it, you can figure this out. You don’t need a PhD to figure it out.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Right. I really think that when it comes to prophecy, it’s interesting that you’re releasing all this stuff at this particular time. When I grew up, prophecy was either super scary, they were going to put guillotines in the streets if you didn’t take the 666 thing, or we just didn’t understand it and blew it off. And I think today, in the age of Marvel movies and The Avengers, suddenly these epic, cosmic stories make a lot of sense to people. And I think the idea, particularly with what you’ve been doing, making it human, making it real, making it normal, these are real characters telling real stories, and God is just giving us insight into what’s about to happen. I think it’s fascinating for people. I just see a wave.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:I may be crazy, I don’t know, but I see a wave of people suddenly… or I should say a wave of us suddenly getting people’s attention because they start to realize “This is more interesting than I thought.” And maybe it’s because I’m a filmmaker based in Hollywood. I see all the Marvel movies. I know the guys that directed Doctor strange and all these Epic movies like that. But I just see all of a sudden, people are more open to what some of these stories are all about in Revelation and “I don’t fully understand it, but I get this. This is interesting.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Absolutely. I mean, they see kind of the world falling apart, so to speak, and there’s some scary things. So, that’s got their attention. And, like you said, with films and movie, the veil between the unseen realm and the seen realm is being thinned-
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Blown away.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:… even for people that aren’t Christians.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:That’s right. That’s really true. And I’m finding, it’s funny, in Hollywood, a lot of Christians criticize Hollywood, think it’s really anti-God, anti-Christian. But, in my experience, it’s not anti-Christian at all; they’re ignorant of Christianity. These guys didn’t grow up in a Christian family. They don’t get it. And I’ve discovered they’re remarkably open to the supernatural, this idea that “There’s something out there I don’t understand, but this can’t be all there is.” And so, you guys are now stepping in with, “Well, let me explain Revelation in a whole another way. Let me show you what prophesy means.” I think it’s fascinating.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Awesome. Thank you. And I love the fact that you guys are in Hollywood. A couple times, I’ve been out to Burbank to pitch some shows and stuff. I think you were on the other side of the world each time we came-
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Yeah, I usually am.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:… so, we met with some people from your team. But you and your wife has had a great impact in-
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Well, thank you.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:… Christian’s influencing Hollywood. So, I just want to throw that out there too to anybody listening, that if that’s your dream, do it. We need you in that space.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Oh yeah. I actually get emails from moms saying, “Is it okay? Is it safe for my son to come to Hollywood? Or my daughter to come to Hollywood?” We could criticize Hollywood all we want. I would rather send missionaries to Hollywood. I don’t look at it as the enemy; I look at Hollywood as a mission field. So, let’s try to get people…
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:I mean, what do missionaries do? They develop relationships. They get embedded in that culture. They start building a reputation. And then you start sharing Christ. So, let’s get people in there, producing and writing and directing and acting.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:And I’ve just discovered that… One of the big things I tell young filmmakers to do when they come to Hollywood is “Don’t lead with your faith; lead with your talent.” So many people come to Hollywood and say, “God’s called me to Hollywood. I’m going to change this place.” You get laughed off the studio lot. Nobody takes that seriously. But if you come out and you show that you’re a brilliant director of photography, a brilliant writer, a brilliant producer, then when they respect that, they’ll listen to anything you have to say.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:And Hollywood is not that strange. I know people that hug trees and worship rocks, so being a Christian is not that weird. And if you could just develop those relationships, it makes a huge difference.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:That’s the key phrase right there, is relationships. How important are relationships in getting into that space and helping people see our perspective?
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Absolutely life and death. What I’ve discovered is all the major churches in Los Angeles have an outreach to the industry. And so, you’d just be amazed at how many Christians are in high-level places in Hollywood. We’ve had studio presidents who are Christians. We’ve had major producers. One of my closest friends is Ralph Winter, who produced X-Men, Wolverine, Planet of the Apes, Star Trek. I mean, he makes a living producing $200-million movies. And he’s a really strong Christian. And yet, he keeps working and he’s highly respected. And so, I could name people all up and down the food chain of Hollywood that are believers.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:It’s funny, I have another friend who’s a director of episodic dramas. He directs cop shows for a living. And he told me one day, he said, “I never make a big deal on the set that I’m a Christian. But it’s interesting. I work with about 60 people on my crew every day. And whenever somebody’s going through a marital problem or an alcohol problem or a drug issue, they always find their way to me.” Isn’t that interesting?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:And I think just coming to Hollywood, being extraordinary at what you do, and having that kind of Christian character, you don’t have to fly your flag. You don’t have to give out tract on the set. Just be who you are. And I think the Holy Spirit will bring people to you.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:I think it’s a great point, that the word you used was “embed,” which I think is a really operative word there. And it’s like if you’re a Christian lawn maintenance person, you don’t have to like mow an ichthys in their yard to be a witness to them kind of thing. Just be a great lawn maintenance person, and they’re going to notice that there’s something different about you.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And a good buddy of mine who’s a stuntman in Hollywood, he’s done the X-men movies and Spiderman movies and that kind of thing, and Batman, all that stuff. That’s what he said. He said, “Look, there are Christians everywhere. God has his people everywhere. We’ve got a Christian stuntman’s Bible study that we do every week.” That kind of thing. So, it’s so encouraging to know that in a world where Christians tend to pull back… We have different responses to culture, right?
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:We want to pull back. We want to insulate. We want to isolate, and all this other stuff. But God wants us to go into culture, to be where the people are because how are you going to reach people? You can’t just lob gospel grenades from the walls of the castle, or the church and hope they get it kind of thing. You got to be the incarnating Christ, where you… I thought Jesus did right?
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And he modeled that for us. And how did he do it? And I always tell people this, that when Christ came, he didn’t really give these huge theological diatribes. I mean, he talked about birds and seed. Why? Because that’s where their culture was.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Have simply told stories.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah. And that’s what you’re doing. Tell us a little bit about how what you do helps tell the story of Christ in a creative way to this generation.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:I think that’s really well-said. I think there’s two ways to look at Christian media and… or Christians, I should say. Christians doing media. One is sometimes we criticize Christian television or Christian movies because they’re not at the quality level we’d like them to be. But rather than criticize that, I have direct TV at home and in Hollywood. And I’ve got home remodeling channels, sports channels, racing channels, gay channels, every channel you can imagine. So, why shouldn’t there be a Christian channel helping Christians be better Christians? I’m cool with that.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:However, on the other side, I’m also really encouraging people to “Just get into mainstream Hollywood.” Every movie doesn’t have to be a Christian movie. Every movie doesn’t have to have an altar call at the end. Let’s just be extraordinary in what we do because very often, we can be a powerful witness just being placed where we are. And so, Mark Zoradi used to be the president of Walt Disney Studios. Very strong Christian Guy. Now, he’s CEO at Cinemark Theaters. And here’s a guy who spent his whole life at the highest levels of the industry. Like I say, he doesn’t make a big deal about it. He is who he is. And I mean, I don’t know anybody that doesn’t like Mark. Everybody really is attracted to Mark. He’s just a brilliant guy. And when you have that kind of testimony out there…
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:I think a big mistake Christians make, you mentioned this earlier, we’ve spent the last 30 or 40 years just criticizing culture. And what has that done for us? I can’t think of a single social issue where we move the dial in a positive way at all by criticizing. A few years ago, I remember we boycotted companies when their employees said “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas.” Wow. Boy, that caused a revival in the end, didn’t it?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Right.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Big deal that made.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah, exactly. Nobody [crosstalk 00:09:44].
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Yeah. Years ago, a major denomination boycotted Disney because they didn’t like the movies they were going to do. And after seven years, Disney’s profits were going through the roof. And it made the denomination look stupid. In fact, the head of the denomination called me and said, “Could you arrange a meeting with the chairman of Walt Disney Studios so we could just kind of end this thing? Because we’re not looking good.”
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:And so, I’ve learned over the years that boycotts and criticism has to be very strategic, or it can come back and really bite you. And so, what I’d rather do is instead of… God didn’t call us to criticize culture; he called us to change culture. And so, I think if we could go out there, be part of it, start changing it from the inside…
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:And by the way, let me say, as somebody working in the industry, when Christians corporately criticize Hollywood, it makes it more difficult for the Christians that are there working on the inside. Suddenly, we get marginalized. We take the heat for that. And so, the good that we were doing on the inside suddenly gets nullified.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:So, I really call on Christians to support. Find that filmmaker in your church, that young filmmaker, that really wants to do something. Support him. Help pay his expenses to come to Hollywood. Put him up in an apartment. Anybody that is a young writer, designer, pick out the artists in your church because I can tell you, artists are the ones that really impact culture in a positive way.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:And I’ll tell you, as a Hollywood outsider, years ago, Sean and I pitched a bunch of concepts to Disney Cartoon Network. And we had that mindset that everyone there’s anti-Christian, but we’re going to go in and try to be salt and light. But what we found was the more people we connected with in every one of those places, in Sony Animation for example, there’s a bunch of Christians, solid guys, and I’ve got to know some of them. So, we were blown away at how many believers there are in the industry.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:And also, from a prophetic standpoint, I think that lines up with what scripture says will happen in the end times. It’s a post-Christian culture. We can’t expect the things we used to do to work now. So, I think it’s all the more important that we build those relationships that you’re talking about, and speak in a way that people can relate to, and, like a missionary going on the mission field, knowing where their head is at at the moment. What language do they speak? What are their cultures? How can we build a bridge? And then introduce the gospel to them.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Well, it’s funny. The missionary thing is a good illustration. What do missionaries do? They don’t go to a third-world country, find a village, surround it, hold up picket signs and protest and say, “We’re not going to share the gospel with you until you change. We’re not going to buy your stuff until you change.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:“Put on those shirts and we’ll… “
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Exactly, exactly. If that doesn’t work for missionaries, it’s not going to work in Hollywood, or it’s not going to work in the gay community, or anywhere else. We have to build those bridges, cross the… Nobody’s going to change. Criticism doesn’t make people change. Trust makes people change. And when they trust you and they feel like, “Okay, maybe this guy’s got a point,” that’s when people think, “Maybe it’s worth the shift.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Nobody cares what you know until they know that you care.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:That’s right, yep, amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Curse the darkness or light a candle.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:True, true.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:That’s two kind of different things things there. Years ago, I wrote a book about zombies. And I went to… They had me speak-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:You got to hear this story.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Oh, you have a lot of problems.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:I went to Zombiecon, okay? So-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Some would [crosstalk 00:12:42].
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Awesome.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:It’s like Comic-Con only Zombiecon. 7,000 zombie enthusiasts. Every horror show actor you’ve ever seen. Daryl from The Walking Dead got a copy of the book. I mean, the whole thing is… But the great thing about it was, with all these people in gear and all dressed up coming by my booth, they couldn’t believe there was a book about zombies written by a Christian. And they were like, “So, is there a Christian character in this?” It’s like, “No, no, no. It’s blood, brains, gore. It’s the whole thing you expect from a zombie novel, but it’s about- “
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:The sin nature.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:That’s interesting.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:It’s kind of [crosstalk 00:13:14] sin nature. But the point was is that it was a bridge-builder. And that’s what you have to do. I mean, we can burn bridges or we could build bridges.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And even within the Christian community, I mean, there are subjects like Bible prophecy that are considered taboo because of various reasons, people being all sensational and speculative or just being kind of crazy, kind of like the sandwich-sign guy, the nonprofit guy, that guy.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:But, at the same time, there is an opportunity. And I think as people look around and see how dark the world’s becoming right now, it presents a great opportunity for us, as believers, to say, “We can stand back and just wait and let the world go to hell, so to speak, or we can get into this thing.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And, like you were talking about, Phil, about missionaries, we don’t go and just read the English Bible to the tribe in Papua New Guinea. We have to translate, you know?
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Mm-hmm (affirmative).
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:So, that’s what we’re doing. We’re translating things, translating Bible truths.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Now, you travel the world. You go everywhere, teaching, and doing films, and you’re working with Christian groups, your leadership conferences, stuff like that. What are you seeing, among Christians worldwide, that tells you that the world is ready more to hear the message of Christ than ever before?
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:That’s a good question. And by the way, I do travel way too much. I had a bit of a meltdown about five years ago. I thought, “If I have to get on one more plane, I’ll kill myself.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:There’s no glamor in travel, right?
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Yeah. It was like I had this moment of revelation. It was like the Lord saying, “But you have no other skills. This is all you know how to do.” And so, I bought nice luggage. And I joined the airline club. And that’s my office now. So, I just live on the road. It’s pretty funny. But it’s nice when the Lord is honest, brutally honest, with you. You have to realize what life is all about.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:But you’re exactly right. I get a amazing opportunity to travel all over the world. We’ve been working on a documentary on the rise of Christianity in Asia. So, we spent all of November filming in India, Mongolia, China, Korea, and Japan. And I just find out there that…
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:I am so on fire. My wife and I launched a nonprofit called The Influence Lab a few years ago because, at any given moment, I have at least 10 requests on my desk of people internationally asking me to come bring a team to teach them about how to use media, how to use your website, how to use social media, short videos to share the gospel.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:And there’s such a hunger. And we’re trying to raise money to help fund that. We’ve been doing it out of our pocket for years. But there’s such a hunger internationally to learn how to use media to share the gospel.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:I’m almost getting frustrated at American Christians because I wrote a book a couple of years ago called The Way Back: How Christians Blew Our Credibility and How We Get It Back. And we started that book thinking the reason we’re being marginalized in the culture… They used to criticize us; now, they just ignore us. And the reason we’ve lost that traction is because we’re not telling our story well. “It’s a marketing problem. It’s a branding problem.” But the more we studied and looked at research, we realized “It’s not a branding problem; it’s a Salesforce problem. Christians don’t believe in the product.” We looked at Barna, LifeWay, Gallop, research. We did some Pew research. We discovered that 40% of church-going Christians read the Bible once a month, rarely, or never.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Wow, that’s sad.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Excuse me, hello? We found 63% believe prayer’s important. And I thought, “Well, that’s a win. That’s a majority.” And then I realized, but that means 37%, more than a third of Christians in the pew today, don’t believe prayer’s important. And, of course, giving. Forget giving. And you’re now considered a regular at your church if you show up 18 times a year. That’s it. How low is that bar?
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:So, the culmination of all that is, in America, it’s like going into a meeting at Coke and you find everybody drinking Pepsi. I just think there’s a reason that the culture, if we did a man-on-the-street interview outside here, I think there’s a reason when you ask people, “What do you think of when you think of Christians?” they say, “Hypocritical, phony, judgmental,” because we are. I mean, statistically, we really are.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:And so, I thing I get so frustrated that Americans are not taking this more seriously, that I just see that internationally there’s just an explosion of interest. There’s an incredible passion for sharing the gospel over there. And they don’t get into this whole secular-spiritual divide; everything is one thing. And so, it’s just really fascinating when I’m speaking. And I was in India in October, speaking at a big media conference there. And just the hunger’s really remarkable.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:I found the same thing. Just got back from the Philippines. And there are just tens of thousands of people. And they’re showing up at church each week. And it’s actually important to them. And they’re actually taking it seriously.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:My wife and I spoke at a church in Manila last summer. 60,000 members. They’re-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:CCF?
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Yes.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah, yeah. I was there. Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Their church seats 20,000 people, and you have to have three services. What a problem to have.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yep. That’s a mega church.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Oh yeah. In fact, I spoke to the small group leaders and it was 2,000 people. 2,000 small-group leaders. So, it’s just really interesting that when you see that, you realize that some amazing things are happening.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And I think that’s one reason for this podcast and our approach with Bible prophecy. Everybody has these weird little niche interests.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Which is good.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Ours happens to be Bible prophecy. And we’re so passionate about it because sadly, and… It’s sad, but it’s also compelling. We feel like we have to be missionaries to Christian culture, where you can trust God’s word. Here, put on these infrared goggles, you’ll see a whole new world that will light your faith on fire so you want to share your faith and you want to reach people for Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah, that’s so true. And I think, Phil, what you’re doing is so strategic. I mean, people think, “If I’m going to make a big impact for Christ, I need to be ordained as a minister and be a pastor somewhere. And that’s the way you do it.” But you know what? We need more people that are not pastors; we need more people that are Christian plumbers, Christian landscapers, Christian filmmakers, because that’s where most of the people are out there. And there’s a relatable bridge-building concept there, that if you’re a pastor, you kind of lose that sometimes. So, it’s very important that we get Christians out into the world and send them out in the world. The world doesn’t care what we do on Sundays. They don’t care. But we need to get the salt out of the salt shaker out into the world each week. And that’s what you’re doing with your ministry.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:It’s funny you say that because in our book, The Way Back, we have a line that “If someone comes to you, if a friend comes to you and says, ‘I really would like to know more about this Jesus thing,’ and your first thought is ‘I need to call my pastor,’ you have a problem.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Them them to church.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:You have a problem. Yeah. So, yeah. We need to get more real, and get out there.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah. A lot of verses in the Bible about Christians going to the world, but not one verse about non-Christians coming to the church.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Right. Come here to hear what our message is.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:That’ll preach.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah, it will.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Absolutely. “That dog [crosstalk 00:19:42]” is what you say in the South.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And now, with your international travels, what do you see as the sense of the church internationally in terms of the nearness of the Lord’s return, the relevance of the Lord’s return? Not in a sensationalistic way, but in a real, faith, looking-at-what’s-going-on-in-the-world kind of way.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:I think the answer to that is urgency. They sense this urgency out there. They’re not fooling around. And we act like it’s never going to happen, this whole second return of Jesus thing, and we just go about our lives. But overseas, they are really driven by this.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:And earlier, you talked about this narrow niche of prophecy. I think the narrower the better. We work with a lot of ministries and churches, helping them rebrand and really find out who they are and what promise they’re making to their community. And I’ve just discovered the more narrow the brand, the more likely you are to get noticed. And so, I think what you’re doing is absolutely critical.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:And in years past, there was some famous prophecy ministries out there, but a lot of them have fallen by the wayside. And there’s nobody out there speaking in a… I should say speaking in a contemporary way that nonbelievers would understand. I want to do something a raging pagan will get. They may not agree with my message, but I want them to say, “Wow, that made a lot of sense.” And so, I think you’re doing that. And I think it’s fantastic.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Thank you.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:But internationally, they get it. They totally get it. And what you get, more than anything, is this sense of “We’ve got to do it now. Our time’s short.” And there’s a real sense of urgency.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:That’s very-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:A lot of crisis across the world. And some countries are feeling that more than we are right now. We’re kind of insulated that way.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:That’s very affirming. And I got to plug one of your other old books.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Please. Okay.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:And that’s One Big Thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Thank you.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:That really helped me. That hit me at a critical time, when I was looking at my background as an artist, my background as an animation producer, my love for theology and Bible prophecy. “How do I mix all of that into one big thing and find my calling?” And I’ve had kind of a lifelong pursuit of my calling, but I feel like that book helped me in particular. And I feel like right now, I’m literally doing what God called me to do. I’m doing that one big thing. So, I appreciate your contribution there.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Well, I read a quote by Michelangelo, the great sculptor in the Middle Ages, in Renaissance. And somebody asked him one time, “How do you carve such amazing statues?” He said, “I don’t carve statues; I just remove the excess stone so the angel inside can come out.” And I really feel like that’s what churches, and ministries, and people, individuals need to do. We’ve got so many things we’re doing. We’ve got so much stuff that we thought was a good idea five years ago, but really didn’t work out. So, we pursued that for a while. And if we could just carve all that stuff away, cut all that stuff away and find the essence of what God’s really called us to do, that changes everything.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:It’s niche for every believer because once we chip that away, we all have a niche market.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:My book, One Big Thing, that you mentioned really came out of an earlier book called Unique: Telling Your Story in the Age of Brands and Social Media, that I had written about ministries and churches. And then I realized all those principles really apply to people. We have to find out what that one big thing is in our lives. I’ve discovered that most people will tell me “Well, Phil, I’m pretty good at a lot of things.” Trust me, those people never get noticed. The people that get noticed are the people that are extraordinary at one big thing. And when I say “noticed,” it’s not about ego; it’s about getting your message out there, getting your calling out there.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:That’s right. It’s cluttered out there.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:It is! Really cluttered.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And the hope that I think every believer has is that each person does have something to contribute, each person has a unique niche, a unique personality, a unique sphere of influence or whatever it is. So, you don’t have to be in charge of a ministry or a corporation or a communications corporate; you can actually have an influence for Jesus Christ wherever you are. And that’s the hope that we have.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And I think, Phil, part of what you’re doing is giving people that kind of creative hope, being innovative, and being able to reach into pockets, where perhaps a traditional gospel influence might not go. It’s like you said earlier, we’re incarnating the gospel wherever we go. And every person can do that in an individual way.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Well, I would say this for your listeners, is to leave them with this, and that is that when we were doing the book, The Way Back, we discovered, research indicated that 76% of Americans don’t know their neighbors’ names. So, let’s just start there. You don’t have to start a church. You don’t have to start a ministry. Just go get to know them. And you don’t have to take a tract. You don’t have to witness to them. Don’t even witness to them. Just take them up a pie. Just go over there and start a conversation. Invite them over for coffee. And if we can do that, at least it starts us moving toward what God’s really called us to do. So, just go meet that lady behind you or the guy next to you, whatever.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Love it, love it.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Well, was there anything, any cool project you got upcoming or anything you want to talk about? Feel free to share that. And also, we want our listeners to know how to find more about Cooke Pictures and other things that you’re doing.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Well, you can find out about us at philcooke.com. Phil Cooke with an “E.” C-O-O-K-E. That’s my blog and kind of the homebase for everything we do. Our Cooke Media Group, our production company, has a website. But you can find everything at philcooke.com.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:And I’m just really all about the intersection of faith, media, and culture. If you want to talk about how we engage the culture with media, I just really… My passion is that we live in a media-driven culture, which is why I love what you guys are doing. We live in a media-driven culture. And if we don’t learn to speak that language in the 21st century, we are going to lose a generation. We simply have to do it.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:I read a statistic, I think The Wall Street Journal released it a couple of years ago, that we’re so cluttered, we have so many distractions, so many other things to do, that when you meet somebody for the first time, you decide what you think of that person within the first four to eight seconds, which means you haven’t had time to talk to them, get to know them, know anything about them. But we’re being pulled in so many directions, we’ve changed our behavior in this digital world to start making decisions and judgments within the first four to eight seconds.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:So, I tell pastors, “I’m glad your sermon’s anointed. I’m glad your worship is fantastic. But in an eight-second world, what’s your lobby look like? What’s the parking lot like in your church? Or who’s the first person a new visitor meets when they walk in the door? Because trust me, they’re making judgements before they get to the pew.” And so, I think that knowing, trying to educate people on that, particularly Christians, in getting them to understand that those things kind of matter, I think that’s a real passion for me.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:It’s like the old TV commercial. You never get a second chance to make a first impression.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Oh, it’s so true. Especially today.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yes, exactly. Phil Cooke, thank you so much for being with us today.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:This has been really fun. Thank you. Great questions.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Awesome. It’s been a pleasure having you, man. I can’t thank you enough for taking the time.
|
||||
|
||||
Phil:Thank you. This has been great.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe, if you have not done so already. And if you liked what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review. That does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot. For more resources or to ask questions or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. and a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
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@ -1,137 +0,0 @@
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![[S1E5: Rapture – God’s Special Ops Extraction.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: There’s an amazing event in the future for every believer and it’s going to blow your mind.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And Todd, that’s what we’re going to talk about today on the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: All right, so Jeff, I’m going to play devil’s advocate here for a minute. We hear this talk about a certain thing and it’s called the rapture. How do we know that the rapture is even a thing? I hear people saying the rapture’s not even in the Bible. How do we know that the rapture’s in the Bible and what does it tell us about that?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, that’s a great question, Todd, because one of the questions that people want to know is not only is the rapture in the Bible, but if it’s in the Bible, what does it mean? And what does it mean specifically for me? When is it going to happen? How’s it going to happen? And so I want to begin to answer some of those questions. And even some of those objections. As we travel around the country, as we talk to people, as people talk to us online and in social media, some of the questions that people ask us is, “Hey Jeff, is the word rapture even in the Bible?” Because aren’t we supposed to be teaching the Bible here? And if the word’s not in the Bible, then why should we even be talking about it? So the answer to that question is, “No,” The English word, rapture, is not in the Bible. Okay?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Gasp.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I know, I know it’s a shocking revelation here, no pun intended. But there are other English words that are also not in the Bible. Words like Trinity, and missions, and Easter and, Christmas, and great commission, and incarnation, and errancy. In fact, the word Bible is not in the Bible. So, Hey. So we need to make sure that it’s not exactly the word that we’re looking for. It’s the teaching of the doctrine. The word rapture is simply a word that we use to describe a biblical event taught in the Bible. In fact, when you get down to where this whole doctrine is specifically taught several places in the New Testament, but one place is First Thessalonians chapter four. And the Bible says that we’re going to be caught up.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: In the next podcast, by the way, Todd, you’re going to be unpacking all that for us. Kind of a frame by frame, slow-mo guys kind of thing. But the word there, the word caught up is the Greek word, harpazo, that was translated into Latin as the word raptura, which is where we get our English word, rapture. Okay, so that’s where it is. But it’s like why do we call it the rapture? Well, it’s because of the Latin translation, and also because if he called it the harpazo, that sounds like something you’d order at an Italian restaurant. You know what I’m saying? So it didn’t really sound good. Or the great snatching away. I mean, that sounds like a zombie movie.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Or calling it the caught up. That’s just too complicated.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, the caught up. It’s like, caught up what? Are you caught up yet? So no, the English word rapture is not in the Bible, but we believe the teaching of the rapture is. A second objection that people have sometimes is they say, “Well, this whole rapture, in the retros the idea of Jesus returning for his bride to rescue them from the wrath that is coming during the time of judgment, during the great tribulation period of seven years where God’s going to unleash the seal, the trumpet and bold judgments on planet earth.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So the idea is that Jesus returns for his bride to rescue her before that event happens. And people say, “Well that’s just you trying to have an escape clause. That’s just a Christian escapism doctrine.” And the way I respond to that is simply by saying, “Well, Noah’s getting rescued from the flood was an escapism as well.” It’s as Rahab being rescued from the destruction of Jericho that’s escaping the wrath that’s coming as well.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So, I think beginning is important to say this is that Christians are never immune from suffering. I mean, at no point in the past 2000 years have Christians ever been immune from hard times, from persecution, and even from tribulation, but just not the tribulation that is predicted for the end times for the book of revelation. And then, God also never promises to deliver us or to exempt us from the world’s hatred as well. Read about John 15 Jesus said, “If the world hates you, know that it hated me first.” And Paul told Timothy, “All those who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.” But specifically, we’re talking here about God’s wrath. And in scripture what we see is that God exempts us from his wrath because the Bible says that his wrath fell on Jesus Christ at the cross.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And Romans 8:1 says, “There’s therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” So, we are completely exempt from God’s wrath, and it’s God’s wrath that’s going to be poured out on planet earth. So, that’s the doctrine of the rapture. So it’s not an escape clause. People always say this too. They say, “Well, where do we see the church during this time of the great tribulation, or during the time of tribulation?” and when you look at the book of revelation, Todd, you see that the word church there occurred the word ekklesia, which means called out ones. The word church occurs 20 times in the book of Revelation. So then you have to ask the question, “Well, where does it occur?” Well, in chapters 1-3, which talks about the seven churches basically, you see the word church appearing 19 times. You see in chapter 22 when we get into the millennial kingdom, the new heavens and new earth, it’s appears one time.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But when you get to the part that talks about God’s wrath being unleashed on the earth, chapter’s 4-19, zero times.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Zero churches.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: No church mentioned at all. But we do see the church in heaven though, during that time. We see the church praising God. And then finally, just from a location standpoint, in the book of Revelation, chapters 1-3 of Revelation, you see the church on earth, chapters 4-19 in heaven, while God’s wrath is on the earth. Chapter 19 you see the bride of Christ returning with Christ at the second coming. And so those are the raptures…
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So, those are two different events.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. The rapture and the second coming are two different events, which is going to be another podcast that we’ll do in the future. Just what are the distinctions between the two comings of Christ there? And then chapter 20-22 where the church is reigning with him in the millennial kingdom.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So really what we see, I think Todd, is the pattern of scripture is to deliver a God to deliver his people before he unleashes his wrath. As I said, did that with Noah. He did that with Rahab, that type of thing. We also see that the promise of Jesus in John chapter 14, our Christ says, “If I go away, I’m going to come again, and receive you to myself. That where I am. You may be also.” There’s a huge background to the Jewish wedding motif that he’s talking about there.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: An engaged, betroth, groom would go away, and then at an unannounced time just return to take away his bride to his father’s house. Which is exactly what Jesus promises to do. We see also the prophecies of Paul, which you’re going to get into here in the next podcast as well.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But also, it’s very interesting to me that even in Revelation 3:10, Jesus promises the Philadelphian church. He says, “I will keep you from that hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.” That’s revelation 3:10. He says here, “I’m going to keep you from that.” Okay?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Out of.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Out of. It’s not keep you in that, but keep you out of that. And what I find very encouraging, very comforting, is the fact that that has not happened yet. He says here, “To keep you from the hour, this coming upon the whole world.” Well, that that hour has not come yet. It’s still a future.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It’s a specific timeframe he’s talking about.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Once again, it’s God’s wrath, not man’s wrath. We do suffer under man’s wrath, but God’s wrath is yet in the future. So those are just some of the objections that we see that people have towards the rapture. And of course not every Christian believes in the rapture, not every Bible teacher believes in the rapture. I believe for some of the reasons we mentioned here and more, that there are many sound reasons to believe in the rapture, and into this event where Christ is going to rescue the bride of Christ. But it’s a fascinating topic, isn’t it?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It really is. And so many things come to mind as you’re talking about that. And one thing we’ve pointed out before and I want to reiterate, is that it’s not like you and I didn’t grow up believing this. We let the word of God dictate our beliefs. And we have good friends that have different views of the timing of the rapture.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But you and I both hold to the pre-trip view, meaning that the rapture happens before the seven year tribulation. And you mentioned several cases that support that. Just God’s pattern of work with Noah and Rahab and even Lot. He got Lot and his family out of there before destruction came.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And even with what you said with the church being spoken of before chapter four of Revelation, 20 times he says churches. And then Revelation chapter four says, “After this, I looked and there before me was a door standing open in heaven and the voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, ‘Come up here, and I will show you must take place after this.'” And what’s interesting is, in chapter one of Revelation, Jesus said the seven lamp stands were the church. Now, after this verse in chapter four, we see the seven lamp stands in the throne room of heaven.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So, the symbolism supports it. The types that he gives us in the Old Testament supports it, and like you said, Jesus’ words even support it when you analyze those carefully. So it’s not like we just pulled this out of thin air or it’s because we want to get out of here before the bad stuff happens, and we just came up with this teaching on our own. I’ll play devil’s advocate again, is one thing I’ve heard from people that don’t support the pre-trip view is that it’s just a recent notion, that Christians have only been teaching that recently. What would you say to that?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, well several things. I think as you look back at the early church, and one of the things that I bring out in my book, Like the Bride, is the fact that there I just a preponderance of evidence that the early church believed in the imminence of Jesus Christ’s return.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: In other words, there was an expectancy, I list about 20 to 30 verses there throughout the New Testament where the church was looking forward at any time for Jesus to return. You got to keep in mind, the early church didn’t have the perspective of history that we do. Jesus said, “I’m going to come back again for you.” In fact, when he ascended on the Mount of Olives, in his Ascension, the angel said, “The same Jesus is going to return one day, to planet earth.” Of course, that’s talking more about the second coming, but it does put that in their minds that they were looking for his return at any time, and at any day. And so that kept them in this expectant spirits. And you see that spirit of expectancy all throughout the New Testament and then also, just the fact that you have the early church.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: They had this phrase, they would say to one another called Maranatha. And they would greet one another that way. And Maranatha is Aramaic. It just simply means, may the Lord come. May the Lord come. So, it’s like the return of the rapture of Jesus was on the churches lips every Sunday. They said that to each other when they greeted one another, they said that to one another, when they left each other at the end of the evening too. So that spirit, we also see it in what’s called Didache, which was the early teaching of the apostles, is extra biblical document but you have that imminency doctrine is there. You see it in the early church fathers and really, off and on throughout church history. Now someone says, “Well, no, this came about at the end of the 19th century or whatever through Darby and other guys like that.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And my response to that is a couple things. Number one, if we’re going to gauge the legitimacy of a doctrine based upon how popular it is in church history, we’re going to have a huge problem. Because justification by faith alone, was not very popular when Martin Luther said, “Hey.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: For hundreds of years.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, exactly. So, when Luther said, “Here I stand.” He was taking an unpopular view. They could have said, “Hey, this justification by faith thing is a recent doctrine.” What Luther do? He just pointed them back to the scripture. And that’s our authority. And even though there are many good things in church history that we can point to and use as a proof case for a viewpoint, we always have to go back to what does the Bible say? I don’t care what anybody says throughout church history, but if the Bible says it, in the first century when it was written, that’s what we’re going to believe.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So I think we can trace this doctrine of immanency, or the idea that Jesus could return at any time, then he’s going to rescue his bride, delivered from the wrath that is coming. First Thess tells us, “We are not destined for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Also in first Thessalonians. Those are the kinds of things that we base that belief on.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And with that, one objection I get from people sometime is, “Well he’s going to keep us from the wrath, but that’s just talking about hell, when all said and done.” But you and I know when you study Old Testament and New Testament, God talks about the day of the Lord, a time of wrath. The hour, it’s talking about a specific time frame. And you said some things that really got my attention. The fact of immanency. That only works in a pre-trip view.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: If that’s the next thing on the radar that Christians have been looking for, then it only makes sense that it’s the rapture. And also, we find that it’s called the blessed hope in Titus 2:13. It says, “While we wait for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and savior Jesus Christ.” So, that’s a blessed hope. It’s supposed to be something that we look forward to and we do get out of here. And also, sometimes I hear people say, “Well, the first half of the tribulation is not going to be that bad.” What would you say to that?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, when you read the first half of the tribulation, it looks pretty bad to me.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It’s really bad.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And there are different… People do different timelines in terms of when they think that the seal judgment’s going to begin, that type of thing. But I think it’s pretty clear that it begins in the early stages of the tribulation period. And then like birth pains, they get successively closer together and stronger. And again, back to the context of what you’re saying about the early church and their view of this imminent doctrine, the context of First Thessalonians, is where it says, “He delivers us from the wrath to come.” It says, “He will wait for his son from heaven to come.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s the rapture.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s a direct reference to the rapture. And then over in chapter five, when it says that God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation, people say, Well, that’s just God destining us for salvation, for our spiritual salvation.” But the whole context of that passage is specifically talking about the day of the Lord. The day when they’re saying peace and safety, suddenly like birth pangs, this destruction will come upon them. And it just talks over and over again about the end of time, the last day. So, the context of being delivered from God’s wrath is speaking of God’s wrath as poured out on planet earth.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And of course that’s going to be a horrible time for planet earth and for humanity. And it does say something about the character of our God, and how while he is very loving and very gracious, and we’re living in a great day of grace right now, where the Lord is not slow concerning his promise, but is willing for all to come to repentance. So he’s waiting on people. At the same time, there’s going to come a time where God says, “All right, that’s enough. I’m going to take my bride out. Now it’s time to start pouring out that wrath on planet earth.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. And I love what you mentioned too about the Jewish wedding traditions. I mean that’s something I think believers should study because it is a perfect picture of the rapture. Jesus said, “I’m going to prepare a place for you.” In the Jewish wedding traditions, the groom after they are engaged would go and literally prepare place for the bride. And she would have a rough idea of when he was coming back, but she wouldn’t know for sure. But it was when the father would say, “Okay, you’re ready. This, this room or this addition on our house that you built is ready for your bride. You’re ready for your bride. Go get her.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And just when you study it in that context, it gives you goosebumps to think about how mind blowing and how beautiful that is. Because what if we believe we got to go through any of the tribulation before we’re raptured, how does that line up with this Jewish wedding tradition? I mean, what groom is going to let his wife get beat up for a little while, and then take her with black eyes and a broken nose and go to the wedding, go get married. It just doesn’t fit the typology anywhere in scripture. But again, you and I have friends and know great Christians who believe differently, and we can joke about our differences and still be brothers in Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But to me, the pre-trip rapture view just number one, aligns it with scripture. Number two, it just really gives us hope. And especially with the things that we’re facing in our day, I think it just gives us tremendous hope to know that the Lord’s return is coming soon. And even if we do have to go through some tough stuff, we still know that he’s our bridegroom and he’s coming back someday for us.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. And I think sometimes, that there is with certain doctrines in scripture, there’s an overreaction based upon the way things were presented at certain times. And I’ll be the first to confess, man, there was a time when there were some really bad Christian movies that came out about the rapture and just like, “Oh please no.” Do it on some other doctrine that I don’t like. But yeah, people look at that and they make parodies of it and make fun of it, that kind of thing, but it doesn’t change the fact. As well intentioned as those things may have been, it doesn’t change the fact. Again, we have to ask ourselves not has there been a cheesy Christian movie made, but what does the Bible say?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And how can we back up that with scripture and with what God says in the rest of His word. So I think when you put just all those pieces together, you’ll see from the teaching that really the pattern of scripture, and the teaching and the promise of Christ, and the prophecies of Paul. We see it also in First Thessalonians chapter 15, First Thess 4 again, you’re going to get it unpacked next time, but and then just Revelation. Once again, just the horrors and the catastrophic destruction and wrath that’s going to take place during that seven year period.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: God has destined us to be in heaven with him, and to be ready to come back with him in victory at the second coming, which obviously we’ll cover it another time.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. Also next podcast, maybe what we can do is also talk about like you said, the specific parts of the rapture, what actually takes place as Paul describes. And also what we believe is going to be going on with the believers in heaven during that tribulation period. So yeah, I can’t wait to get into that. And this one we just wanted to unpack what the rapture is. That is a real thing, that is in scripture. One last question and then we can end is, what do you think about… It seems like a lot of people are turned off to it, almost like we’ve cried wolf so much because there’s been date setters and people saying the Lord’s coming on a certain date or a certain time period, and then that that time has passed. And it seems like it’s like crying wolf where a lot of people would just tune it out now, to where even believers are not even really thinking about the rapture. What can we tell them that would encourage them to give it another look?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, I think there’s two sides to that. I think the one side there has been people who have been watchman on the wall. They’ve been sounding the trumpet call and saying, “Hey, the Lord is coming back.” Maybe without a followup explanation of, “Now, we’re not saying tomorrow, we’re not saying this, but we’re saying scriptures teaching that he is going to come back.” I think the first century church had that imminent seize that we talked about. They had that sense of urgency. I think it really gave them a sense of purposeful urgency to their lives. Not panic, not anxiety, but a sense of, “Hey, my life matters because the Lord could come back at any time.” But I love what… I’ll get more back in this in just a second, but I love what Martin Luther said. Speaking of Luther, he said, “If I knew Christ were to return tomorrow, I would plant a tree today.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And just the idea of we still got stuff to do today. We still don’t know. This tree may grow and live a hundred years. But at the same time, we do know that Christ has promised to come back. And the last days were really began according to First John chapter 2, we’re in the last hour, even in the first century.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So we’re really in the last of the last hour. And when you combine that with the context of the prophecies that we are seeing, information and that have already been fulfilled right now, that gives us another clue that the rapture is closer than it’s ever been before. So I think because of that, it’s really not crying wolf, it’s really more like sounding the trumpet.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: The alarm.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: “Hey, the King is coming.” And for the church at least, we need to make sure that we are looking forward to that coming, that our hearts are prepared, that we’re purified and that we’re ready to meet that Jesus that we read about in Revelation chapter one.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. And like you said, it’s an important doctrine and it’s almost like the pendulum has swung the other direction to where it’s not on people’s radar anymore. And that’s what we’re trying to do with these podcasts is the name of one of your books, Wake the Bride. Trying to wake people up to the fact that, “No, we still should live with that sense of immanency. We still should live with that sense of urgency and focus in on the things of God and not on the things of the world.” And I think that brings people a lot of hope, and a lot of urgency for the time.
|
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|
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Todd: Well, if there’s anything else that you guys want to find out about us, if you want to ask us questions, please, please go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And you can get find out all the information about me and Jeff and our ministries and what we’re doing. And also you can ask questions and we would love to start a conversation with you, continue the conversation with you and just hear what’s on your heart, what questions you have, ask us questions about the rapture, about anything at all related to Bible prophecy and eschatology. We would love to hear from you, Jeff, is there anything else you can think of that you didn’t say?
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|
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Jeff: All I want to say is, don’t miss the next podcast because Todd’s going to unpack the rapture frame by frame. We’re going to analyze it and break it down a little bit for us, and talk about that. It’s going to be a great time.
|
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|
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Todd: Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe, if you have not done so already. And if you liked what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review. That does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot. For more resources or to ask questions or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
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![[S1E6: What Happens at the Rapture?.mp3]]
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Todd: Hey, welcome to the Prophecy Pros Podcast. This is Jeff Kinley and Todd Hampson and we’re going to get into the nitty gritty frame by frame play of the rapture.
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Jeff: Todd, one of the things that I really appreciate about you, you’re, you’re just this multi-talented versatile kind of guy and you’re a professional animator and I know you’ve got a lot of background in that, but most of us who are not familiar with animation, how it works, don’t understand that the finished product looks one way, but there’s a lot that goes into that. You kind of break it down frame by frame. I mean are there many things that are happening behind the scenes in an animation?
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Todd: Yeah, absolutely. I mean that’s a great analogy. With animation there’s typically 24 frames a second and yeah, if you slow it down, you can see a lot that you don’t see when it’s going by really fast. There’s a particular thing called a zip move where a character is in one frame and then the frame right next to it, he’s kind of blurred and stretched, then frame three, he’s in a different frame, but when you look at it really fast, it just looks like one continuous move.
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Todd: So there’s little tricks of the trade like that. We were talking about that because a lot of people when they hear about the rapture and that’s what we’re talking about today and breaking down the details of the rapture, they just think of it. “Okay, it’s a rapture. You get snatched out of here.” Well there’s a lot of little mini frames so to speak that happen within that. Today we’re going to look at the primary texts for the rapture and we’re also going to look at other places where [foreign language 00:01:27] is used and how it’s always referred to a snatching out, like most a violent snatch you out of here in a blink of an eye kind of thing. We’re going to talk about that. But I thought I’d start with the primary text is 1st Thessalonians 4:16 through 17.
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Jeff: Let’s dive right in.
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Todd: Rather than just read the whole thing, I’m going to stop and pause on frames and talk about what’s going on here so that people can notice that there’s several mini events within this one big mega event that are going on.
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Jeff: Yes.
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Todd: So reading that, at first it says the Lord himself, and let me pause right there. This is Jesus Christ himself. He’s not sending somebody else. He’s not sending a proxy. It’s him himself is coming down. “So the Lord himself will come down from heaven.” So he leaves heaven’s throne room. Once again, just like with the first coming, when he zipped on some skin and became a man, he’s stepping out of heaven into our realm. That’s a significant thing.
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Todd: And it says, “With a loud command, with the voice of an Archangel and with the trumpet call of God.” So those are three additional things. There’s going to be a loud command. Who knows? Maybe it’s like when he told Lazarus to come out of the grave, because the moment of the rapture is also the resurrection. So maybe he’s going to say, “Todd and Jeff, come forth.” With the voice of an Archangel. We don’t know which Archangel that is. Maybe it’s Michael, the War Angel, Archangel and this is really a special ops snatch and grab. The world is known as… Satan’s called the Prince of the Power of the Air. So this is his territory. So Jesus is stepping into enemy territory and snatching out his people.
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Todd: It says, “With the voice of an Archangel and the trumpet call of God.” Again, we know that at the sound of the last trump, we will talk about that as we go on, but there’s actually, will we hear an actual heavenly trumpet? I believe so. Will everyone hear it? Will nonbelievers hear it or just believers? I’m not sure there’s debates on that. But these are again mini frames that we need to break down and think about because they’re really, really fascinating.
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Todd: Then finally it says, “And the dead in Christ will rise first.” All right, there’s the resurrection. So I don’t know if it’s because they’re six feet deeper than we are. Then they get to go first or that they had to experience death, but that’s the promised resurrection. That’s part of our salvation is our bodily resurrection. The dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up and that’s that [foreign language 00:03:56] word, it means a snatching away. A sudden fast snatching away.
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Todd: “We’ll be caught up together with them in the clouds.” So there’s another frame, we’re going to be reunited with believers that have gone before us. Is this kind of a thing where time stands still for a couple minutes and we get to see people? Or is it just all so sudden and then we realize we’re there with believers that have gone before us, once we’re all there? I don’t know. These are some of the mysteries about bout this piece of word of God. “We’re caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” That’s an important detail because at the end of the tribulation, Jesus’ feet touch the earth. There’s actually touched down where he makes contact with the earth. It’s very important to note that this is not that moment, that we’re meeting him in the middle of the air, midway between heaven and earth so to speak.
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Todd: “So we will be with the Lord forever.” I love it because, and I think you mentioned this in the last podcast, that 1st Thessalonians 4:16 and 17 lines up perfectly with Jesus’s words in John 14:3, where he says, “If I go to prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me.” Another version says, “I’ll receive you to myself.” So again, he’s not coming all the way down to earth. So it’s clearly a different event than his actual second coming where he touches earth that you also will be where I am. So those two passages line up perfectly.
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Jeff: Before we get to the last verse in that passage, I want to back up just for a second and maybe slow it down even more a little bit. To ask you a couple of questions about that. You talked about Jesus descending with a command. My translation says, “A shout.” If we know anything about a shout, we know that a shout is by definition loud, right?
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Todd: That’s right.
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Jeff: So know that whatever Christ says is going to be loud. Obviously it’s going to be heard by every believer across the entire planet.
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Todd: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
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Jeff: That means it’s going to be a supernatural command. Obviously it’s going to be authoritarian because something’s going to happen to us based upon the words that come out of his mouth. So there’s going to be a call, a summons, if you will. I think that’s part of the trumpet thing. We’ll get to that in just a second. But I think it, like you said earlier Todd, it’s really the summons of a bridegroom to his bride, calling the bride to the wedding, which fits in so perfectly with that John 14 passage about Jesus going away as our betrothed and we are his beloved.
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Jeff: When he comes back and he calls us to be with himself and later on in this passage it says, “Thus we shall be with the Lord in the air and with one another.” The whole idea of being with Christ is a theme that really runs throughout the New Testament. I mean, really all the way, I mean, you could go back to his choosing of us before the foundation of the world. But even in Mark chapter three verse 14 where it says, “He called his disciples.” It says, the number one reason he called them was that, “They might be with him.” That’s what it says. Then we get to John 14 and of course they were with him. John 14 Jesus says, “I’m going away. I’m going to come back so that you can be with me.” Right here in this passage, says it again, “Be with me.”
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Jeff: Read about in Revelation when we’re in heaven with eternity with God, it says, “They are with God, within his presence.” So the whole idea of this depth of relationship and intimacy with God, that tells me that the rapture is more than just a clinical theological happening. Man, it’s a romantic event.
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Todd: So you think the Lord longs to be with us even now?
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|
||||
Jeff: Oh absolutely. He longs so much that he’s preparing this place for us in heaven. So you’ve got this shout of Jesus and as you said, the voice of the Archangel. Wow! Wouldn’t that be great? That it would be Michael? Of course, we know there are more archangels than Michael, we just don’t know their names and people say, “Well, what’s he going to say? What’s going to be his word?” We don’t exactly know, maybe like the bridegroom helper, what’s it called?
|
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|
||||
Todd: The groomsmen.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Thank you very much, it’s like my tongue got tangled. Anyway, so in the parable of the 10 virgins, he says, “Behold the bridegroom come out to meet him.” Perhaps it’s something like that, that he’s going to say. Then of course, the trumpet of God. Of course in ancient Israel that the trumpet was used to bring the people of God together. That was one of the reasons why the trumpet was used in secular culture to announce the arrival of a King. So you’ve got this whole trumpet thing. I mean, are we getting the sense of this is a dramatic moment in history? Yes, this is going to be a huge event in the course of our experience with Christ. Of course, when you look over to 1st Corinthians chapter 15, Paul tells the Corinthians about this event, and he says in verse 51, “Behold, I’ll tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.”
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|
||||
Jeff: So even those who are dead in Christ, meaning those who have died in Jesus and we who are alive depending on who’s alive at the time of the rapture, we’re all going to be changed in the air. It says, “When will this happen? How fast will this happen?” This goes back to this whole frame by frame. I says in verse 52, “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet will sound and the dead in Christ will be raised first imperishable, and we shall be changed.” It’s very interesting, this word, moment in the Greek language is the Greek word, [foreign language 00:09:27] which we get our word Adam from. It’s simply a word that means that which is indivisible.
|
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|
||||
Todd: The smallest amount of time possible.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yes. The smallest amount of time, like you can’t divide that amount of time. It happens so quickly. It’s instantaneous. It happens, it says, “In the blink of an eye.”
|
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|
||||
Todd: Wow!
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Which is like, 100th of a second type thing. The twinkling of eye, excuse me. And so there’s going to be an immediate event that happens. And you know what’s really interesting to me is that if you think about it, Jesus Christ is not physically been on this earth for 2000 years. This is going to be his first quote, unquote, onsite miracle in 2000 years, though, he’s done many miraculous things in people’s lives, going to transform us.
|
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|
||||
Todd: That’s one thing I wanted to point out is that you have these little clusters of miraculous moments like Moses and the plagues and the parting of the Red Sea, of course creation when God spoke things into existence, and then all of a sudden after a long period of church history where it’s not that God doesn’t work supernaturally, but this is one big mega, overt, crazy supernatural event that’s going to be a game changer.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: It’s prophesied. That’s the thing. It’s not just something that God happens to have done in someone’s life. This one’s in the Bible. They say it’s going to happen. Paul writes about that and Jesus, and so we know that event, that a miracle is going to happen in time. The effect that it has on us is that we, our bodies are changed and we’re given new bodies, imperishable bodies, and people say, “Well, why do we want to have new bodies?” Because listen, we haven’t been in the real presence of God. We’re talking about the holy, majestic, sovereign, shining Chicana glory, God in Heaven. We need new bodies to withstand really the trauma of being in the presence of God. That’s why quite frankly in John one, when you read the vision of Jesus that he gives to John, and you see them in all of his glory, the Bible says, John says, “I fell at his feet as a dead man.”
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|
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Jeff: He had this trauma that happened to his nervous system and just to his mental overload. We need to be changed in order to withstand the glory of being in the presence of Jesus Christ. So it’s going to be a massive, incredible, instantaneous miracle that’s going to take place. Jesus is going to do something that’s never been done before. He’s going to make us completely like him.
|
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|
||||
Todd: I think it’s interesting to point out to that point too, that he spoke creation into existence. And here, once again, we have his voice speaking our new bodies into existence, so to speak. And yeah, I tell people the same thing our body, our current bodies can’t even handle the sights and sounds we would see, we would explode on impact.
|
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|
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Jeff: Yes, absolutely.
|
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|
||||
Todd: So we need new glorified spiritual bodies that can handle that.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. We would explode. We would burn up as a cinder in his presence. That’s the thing that I think a lot of times that people talk about, there’s this famous sort of painting. It says, I think the caption says, “First day in heaven, first moment of Heaven.” It’s got this picture of a girl who’s like running in the arms of Jesus and she’s got her arms wrapped around his neck and kind of thing. I tend to think when we look at scripture that that’s not going to be the case. We’re going to be on our face before Jesus Christ. We’re going to be worshiping him. We’re going to be overcome by all and glory. When you read in Revelation, chapter four where we see the throne room of God there, man, they’re not given Jesus high fives. They’re falling on their face to worship him. This is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords.
|
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|
||||
Todd: In all of his glory.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: In all of his glory, he’s not our bro, kind of thing. I mean he’s the God of the universe. Think of that moment when we are raptured. It’s going to come at an unexpected time, which is why we should always be prepared for the coming of the Lord. We’re going to get more into some of the specifics of this here in just a little bit, but I think it says something to us about our preparedness and about the fact that this is a Christ who deserves our devotion right now.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think scripture teaches, we should be looking for that moment, being prepared for it, expecting that moment to happen at any time. We see that in the parables of the bridesmaids, some of them were ready, some of them weren’t. We see that in all the type ology. We see that clearly taught in first and second Thessalonians that we need to be looking for him. It’s amazing.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yes. It’s what theologians call the doctrine of immanency, meaning that Christ could return anytime. There’s many scriptures in the New Testament, just a couple of them where Paul says, Romans 13:12, “The night is almost gone. The day is at hand.” 1st Corinthians 1:7, “Awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” We talked about Maranatha, our Lord come, how the early church used that to greet one another. Philippians 3:20, he talks about heaven, he says, “From which we also eagerly await a savior.”
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Philippians 4:5, the Lord is near, talks about waiting and 1st Thessalonians, the coming of the Lord is at hand and James and on and on and on. Like you said, Titus 2:13, looking for the blessing. This is the most expectant moment of a believer’s life, and we’re going to be with the Lord. That’s the promise that we have.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Then of course in Revelation 3:11 Jesus says, “I’m coming quickly.” Revelation 22:7, “I’m coming quickly.” Revelation 22:12, “I’m coming quickly.” Revelation 22:20, “I’m coming quickly.” I mean, how much more does Jesus have to tell us he’s going to come back?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Exactly.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And it’s going to be soon and it’s going to be quickly. So we have to be prepared for that glorious event’s going happen.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So Jeff, that’s been 2,000 years almost. So I think a lot of believers have lost the art of waiting. So what would you say to a believer that says, “Well that was 2000 years ago and he said he was coming quickly, but he’s still not here yet.” What would you say to somebody that said that?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well I’d say a couple things. We have to ask the question, what in the world is God waiting on? Both from a believer standpoint and from a world standpoint, we see our world deteriorating. We see things happening in our culture that are mirroring the days of Noah. So we’d have to ask ourselves, “Why has God waiting?” I think one of the main reasons that he’s doing so according to 2nd Peter chapter three verse nine is that he is waiting for those to come to Christ who are going to come to Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Romans 11:25 talks about the fullness of the Gentiles and there’s going to be, if you’ve ever thought about this, I don’t know if our listeners have ever considered this, but the fact that there’s going to be a last Gentile to come to Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Let’s find that guy right now.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Seriously, let’s go locate him, just do an internet search form because guess what? There’s going to be that person. Once that person comes to faith in Jesus Christ, God’s going to say, “Okay, blow that trumpet. Let’s do this thing. Let’s get down there and rescue my bride. Because my wrath has been building against this dam of mercy for 2000 years. The dam is about to break on planet earth.” So I think that God is waiting because he’s… number one, he’s setting the stage for the end times, he’s setting the stage for revelation.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I think secondly, he’s waiting for the lost to repent. Jesus still loves sinners. He still wants people to come to Christ and he’s still working through his Holy Spirit to romance and woo and to convict those people of their sin, to bring them. Then he’s just waiting for the appointed time, this time for the wedding to begin for the bride of Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I find it just fascinating to me, this whole idea of the rapture, and we talked about this word [foreign language 00:16:51], the Greek word, which means to violently seize or snatch away someone to rescue them type thing. That word is used in Acts chapter eight, where it talks about Phillip being snatched away and suddenly finds himself in a whole different location.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Same word, right?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yes, exact same word. 2nd Corinthians 12:2, where Paul says, “I was caught up to the third heaven.” Exact same word. In Revelation 12:5, it’s talking about the Ascension of Jesus uses this word, [foreign language 00:17:19]. So Jesus was raptured at the Ascension, so in 14 times in the New Testament it’s used in five of those 14 times, it means to disappear. So, I mean, that’s a little bit of a detail on behind the scenes kind of thing. But the whole idea, Todd, is the fact that Jesus has promised to return for his bride, he’s going to return for his bride and we should be looking for his return and anxiously awaiting and anticipating that. In the meantime, we’ve got to keep getting the message out and telling people about Jesus.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. That’s right. Today would be a good day.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It really would be. Yeah. It’s very interesting, my mother came to Christ on her deathbed and I asked her why she had not done this before and her answer was, “Well, I guess I never got around to it.” But she came to Jesus on her death bed. And guess what, maybe some people listening today have just thought to themselves, “Well, I just never got around to it.” This doctrine of the rapture is not meant to frighten people. It’s not meant to scare people into heaven, at the same time it is a reality. And if that produces a sense of urgency in your life to get your heart right with Christ, to repent of your sins and give your heart to Jesus Christ, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. If that’s what motivates you, then so be it. That’s the way God’s drawing you to himself.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It’s exciting doctrine. By the way, the very last verse there Todd, back in 1st Thessalonians chapter four, in verse 18, remember what it says there? It says, “Therefore, do what with these words?” Comfort one another.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Comfort one another.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Comfort one another. So for believers, the rapture is a great doctrine. It’s kind of a… it’s that exhale.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It’s a breath of fresh air.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And to me it’s another support for the pre-trib view because how could that be comforting if you had to go through seven years of hell on earth to get there? It is our escape clause. It is our… again, it’s not that we won’t face tough things. Christians are being persecuted all over the world, worse now than any other time in history. But at the same time we have some of the biggest revivals in history, Iran right now, Muslims are turning to Christ in droves, underground church in China, Malaysia, God is definitely working behind the scenes.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I think that goes back to what you said about there is that last person that needs to receive the Lord and perhaps this is the last in gathering of some of the people that he’s trying to reach. We don’t know the timing of it, but it sure seems like it’s closer now than it’s ever been before. That’s for sure.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yes, that’s so true. You’re right about the revival. I’ve seen it firsthand in the Philippines, what God is doing right now.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I think that the bottom line just of an encouragement to believers who are listening out there to embrace this doctrine. Hey, dive in 1st Thessalonians chapter four, dive into first Corinthians 15, dive in John 14. Get into these passages for yourself and study it and just allow the Holy Spirit to give you that comfort to make sure that you’re his and that you’re going to be rescued by this great conquering hero, Jesus Christ when it comes back for us. So that’s a little bit of the doctrine that we’ve unpacked today. There’s more, right?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, absolutely. [crosstalk 00:20:06]. There’s lots more.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: We can always talk about more.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I love what you said. I mean that really is the crux of it, right there is don’t take our word for it, dive into the word, learn it for yourself and again this is conversational. We’d love to hear from you. If you have questions about the rapture or any other topic. We want to hear what’s not clear, what you need to figure out, what confuses you. Those are the things we want to address. We want to make sure that this podcast is something that you can look forward to hearing and learning from and we just count it a privilege to talk to you each week.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. So send those questions into where, Todd?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Prophecyprospodcast.com. There you can ask questions. You can also find out information about Jeff’s ministry, my ministry, and some live events doing called the Daniel Project and all kinds of other stuff. So that’s prophecyprospodcast.com. See you next time.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe if you have not done so already. If you like what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review, that does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot. For more resources or to ask questions or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com and a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,239 +0,0 @@
|
||||
|
||||
![[S1E7: What’s the Big Deal with Israel?.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Why is the world so enthralled and captivated by this one tiny country that can literally fit into Lake Michigan with room to spare? That’s what we’re going to talk about next on the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Welcome to the podcast. My name’s Jeff Kinley along with Todd Hampson and we’re the Prophesy Pros and we’re here to help you understand, make sense of Bible prophecy so that it impacts your lives and gives you the strength and confidence to live in these perilous times that we’re in town.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Todd, we’re talking about Israel today, which is a very, very fascinating topic. I know that most people don’t get up in the morning go, “Hey, I wonder what’s going on in Israel today?” But there is a lot going on in Israel and there seems to be a lot of focus on Israel. Talk about that a little bit.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I remember even as a kid, even before I was a Christian and seeing just so much Middle East drama ramping up and I always wondered why so much was focused on that. Of course, you’ve got the oil and everything else, but even today, from that time til today, it’s just ramped up even more to where literally the entire world’s focus is on Israel and the Middle East and all the drama that goes on there.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: What we don’t realize without studying scripture is that it’s actually biblical. Even going back, we’ll just start with the Abrahamic promise, when God literally gave an unconditional promise to Abraham. That’s found in Genesis chapter 12 and starts in verse two, it’s verse two and three. There we read, “I will make you into a great nation, I will bless you. I will make your name great and I will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you and whoever curses you, I will curse. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So there’s multiple prophesy details in that dense verse that we could talk about, even leading to Jesus. He came and blessed the whole world. But this is an unconditional promise that God made to Abraham and his descendants that is not replaced by the church. We’re going to talk about that a lot today. But I think it all stems back to that, Satan hates what God loves, and here God set the standard and the framework for everything that was moving forward from this point.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. People ask, well, why is Israel such a focus? Why do they seem to be at the hub of all the conflict and all the controversy? But something you mentioned there about Satan. I mean, you think about Satan and his hatred for the Jewish people. I mean, antisemitism is on the rise today. It’s really growing rapidly in Europe and we see it even some places in America as well in these shootings and stabbings and that type of thing with Jewish synagogues and gatherings. But it really goes back, this ancient hatred goes back to the verses that you just talked about, where God himself made a covenant with a people.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yep.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It says in Deuteronomy, at least Deuteronomy seven, God says, “I didn’t choose you out of all the nations of the world because you are the biggest nation, but because I loved you, because I wanted to,” basically God says. So he makes this covenant with the Jewish people, but Satan hates the Jewish people. Why? Because through the Jewish people came the scriptures, through the Jewish people came the Messiah, the Jewish people have promises from God that are yet fulfilled. The Jewish people, one day, Todd, are going to call upon their Messiah to return. He’s going to return. If Jesus returns, that means Satan is kicked out of the house, that means he doesn’t get to rule the earth anymore.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So Satan hates the Jews for a variety of reasons, but I think some of our listeners are probably thinking, “Yeah, okay, so there’s the Old Testament-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s so old fashioned, Jeff.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It is-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s old school, man.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I mean, you call the Old Testament, it just sounds so antiquated, out of date. It’s kind of like an old dictionary from 1900. Who uses those things, right?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Shouldn’t we just love God and love our neighbors and not worry about the Old Testament?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, just love Jesus, you don’t need theology, right? But in the Old Testament, we learn so much about the character of God and the way that he deals with his people, his relationship with his people. We see that throughout the Old Testament. You look through the Kings and the Chronicles and you see it in the Psalms, obviously, but that’s what the Old Testament is about, it’s the history of God’s covenant relationship with the Jewish people.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Even through, as we talked about last time, about Daniel and them being in captivity and then they were scattered and dispersed among the nations, they ended up kind of congregating for a little while in Israel. That’s where we get to 70 AD, we talked about earlier where the Jews were dispersed again. So this history of the Jewish people is buried, it’s dramatic, it’s romantic, it’s violent. There’s so many things involved there. But we get to this point where God’s covenant with them has still not changed, because these were unconditional promises.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: We mentioned here and in Genesis chapter 15 where God, he re-institutes this covenant with Abraham. God is the only one who takes part in the covenant, Abraham’s asleep in this thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: God himself makes-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Cuts an animal in half and walks through.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Just cuts it in half walks through, and so he is the one that signs the contract, if you will. So that’s one reason why we know. Then as you just trace it a little bit through history about those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. If you look at the history of Egypt, Syria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, those are nations that conquered Israel, they took their land, they took their people captive, they dispersed them in the earth. Hey, where’s Babylon today? Are they a powerhouse?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Even more modern times, where are the Nazis?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, exactly.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I mean, they’re gone.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Right.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I mean, there’s people that try to claim to be, but those plans did not work out.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, and even the country of Germany was split in two after that. So, there’s all this relationship between those who treat the descendants of Abraham a certain way. God says, “Hey …” It’s like I told my boys when they were young, say how you treat your mother will determine your happiness.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Wise advice.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Then God says, “Hey, how you treat my people of Israel will determine how I treat you as Gentile nations.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But hasn’t the church replaced Israel, so those are no longer true? I’m being facetious here.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Well, and that’s one of the things that you have a whole branch of theology that does believe that we just kind of became the new Israel, that type of thing. But a couple of things we need to keep in mind is, first of all, is that those promises that God made to the Jewish people were specifically to them as a nation.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Historically, what we find in the New Testament is Jesus came, the Bible says in John one that he came to his own and his own didn’t receive him. I think that’s one of the saddest verses in the whole Bible, is that Christ came to the Jews, he presented himself as the Messiah. They rejected their Messiah at the time, they were looking for a conquering King and he came as a suffering servant to die for their sins. So they rejected that and then God turned to the Gentiles, Paul became the apostle to the Gentiles.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So it’s interesting in Romans chapter 11, this is what Paul says, he says, “For I do not want you brother to be uninformed of this mystery.” Once again, here’s a prophetic mystery that Paul’s saying don’t be ignorant, don’t be uninformed about it. He says, “Lest you be wise in your own estimation.” He says that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So basically what God did as a nation, talking about a national relationship, not an individual relationship with Jews who become Christians, but national Israel, he says I’m going to put you on the back burner here while I deal with the Gentile nations and bring in the bride of Christ, which is this mystery, the bride of Christ. He brings in the bride of Christ as the mystery into this covenant relationship with God, salvifically speaking. Then he says, “Until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So there’s going to come a time when the age or the time of the Gentiles, the church age, is going to come to an end and God’s going to say, “Okay, now it’s time to turn my attention back to the Jewish people.” That’s where the tribulation period will begin that’s very Israeli-centric in the tribulation. In fact, the very next verse says, “And thus all Israel will be saved.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So at some point, all Israel will turn to Christ and see him for who he was.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. There’s going to be this remnant in the end times in the end of the tribulation, God’s going to turn back to them. So I think it’s just interesting to think about this is that people who think that the church is Israel, you could almost understand that thinking just from what’s going on in the world, until 1948. On May 14th, 1948 when Israel became a nation again, nobody could really see that coming.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I mean, here we have six million Jews being slaughtered in the Holocaust and we think, “Well, Israel for sure is done now, right?”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yep.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But God actually used that horrible series of events to create sort of a worldwide sympathy for the Jews to allow them partially to go back to their Holy land. I think within 11 minutes of that declaration being made, President Truman said, “Hey, we’re on board as well.” America’s always been really the Jews greatest ally, Israel’s greatest ally.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So all that to say is that for the Jews being scattered for 2,000 years, 20 centuries to 70 more countries, the language being dead, now that they’re coming back, it’s been a process of course, but now they’re coming back to the Holy land and they’re in the land now. The Bible says revelation can’t happen basically until the Jews are there.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, that’s amazing when you think about it. Honestly, I think this is where some believers get a little tripped up is, okay, 70 AD, Jerusalem was destroyed, Jews were scattered everywhere, there was no more Israel. End of story, focus on New Testament. But what they failed to realize is no, God was still at work, actually fulfilling prophecy, he has prophecies. For example, Deuteronomy 28:64 says, “The Lord will scatter you among the peoples from one end of earth to the other.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Then there’s several prophecies, I won’t go through all of them. But Isaiah 11:11 says, “In that day,” talking about the end times, “In that day, the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to bring back the remnant of his people.” So notice he says there’ll be two dispersions. One is what we talked about with Daniel in the last episode, but that there would be another worldwide dispersion. So God was at work during that time and just like scripture says, everywhere they went, they were persecuted, they were mistreated, like you said. Somehow they kept their identity, that’s never happened with any other people group.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: A few podcasts ago, we talked about even the land was completely just a wasteland. Mark Twain visited it before they came back into land and was like, I forget the exact words, but he essentially said, this place is just a mess. I haven’t seen a tree in three days, I’ve seen two or three people. I can’t believe this is the Holy land.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But as soon as Israel became a nation again, all of a sudden the weather patterns changed, vegetation began to grow, they came up with new ways to hydrate things. I mean, all kinds of stuff. That’s a fascinating study from a military perspective. There’s just so many, probably hundreds of prophecy details that line up perfectly with what’s happened in modern times, and it’s a really powerful thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It really is. When you think about the fact that, like we said earlier, Revelation has a lot to do with Israel. It’s about what’s called the time of Jacob’s trouble. It is a time of tribulation. Yes, it’s a time where God is pouring out his wrath on the world and on Gentile nations during the reign of the antichrist, but it’s all kind of leading. Kind of like tributaries and different tributaries and creeks in a river, going into one giant stream there that’s heading towards Israel, and it all lands in Jerusalem, it all lands right there.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: When we read Revelation, and this ties back into the 70 weeks we talked about, and that final seven year period is focused on the Jews and trying to win them back to Christ, that’s why you find so much Jewish symbolism in the book of Revelation. There’s 404 verses, but over 800 references to the Old Testament. We see 144,000 Jewish evangelists.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: 144,000 Jewish Billy Graham’s running around the world proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom. The two witnesses are Jewish, it’s a focus on the temple. I mean, you can’t read the Book of Revelation and not see its Jewishness.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. That’s a great point, because I think sometimes, specifically as Americans, we kind of think we’re the center of the world, we’re the center of the universe.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: We’re a little spoiled that way.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: We’re kind of a big deal here, okay? But we’re really not in terms of Bible prophecy. I wrote a whole book called The End of America? and just talking about where is America in Bible prophecy? Yet when we look at Israel, we know that Israel’s there, because we have it right here in the things that you just mentioned. I think what that does is it tells us, Todd, that God has a master plan.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: God is not doing this just piecemeal by piecemeal, he’s not just ad-libbing history here, it’s already been planned out.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Part of his plan is to return his attention to the Jewish people, to redeem that remnant of the Jews and to save Israel, because he has promises to them. Promises regarding the land, promises regarding David’s throne, promises regarding his relationship with them and even the 12 apostles sitting on 12 thrones, the 12 Jewish apostles. So, there’s so much about Israel that we find in the Book of Revelation.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Even I was just looking at Revelation chapter 12 where it’s previously talking about the two witnesses you mentioned, which many people believe are Moses and Elijah come back to planet earth here, but is talking about just how Satan has always persecuted the Jewish people. In chapter 12, he tried to destroy Christ when he was born through Herod.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But in the end of verse 12 it says, “For this reason, rejoice O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you having great wrath, knowing he only has a short time.” It says here that when the dragon or the devil comes to the earth, it says he goes to persecute the Jewish people. The Bible says that God protects them as a great eagle in order that she can go into the wilderness to a place where she’s nourished for a while. So, there’s going to be a time when this antisemitism is going to be full-on persecution.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Listen, Hitler’s going to be like Walt Disney compared to the antichrist. I mean, he’s going to bring it on. He’s going to bring all the power of Satan, because guess what? His regime is in charge during that last seven year tribulation period, so he’s going to go after the Jews and persecute them and slaughter them, along with Christians who refuse to take his mark.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, that is a horrific time. We’ve talked about this before, just there is scary stuff in Revelation. Excuse me. The Bible doesn’t pull punches, it’s a rated R book, so to speak.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It is, yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I mean, it really shows you things like it’s going to be. But woven throughout that, like you said, the hope we can have is that as believers, if we know the Lord, we’re out of here before that. Also even in the midst of those who do go through all that, God still has a plan. That’s ultimately what we want to see is for God’s plan to come to completion, for him to get glory, for him to be seen for who he is. Also, we can’t blame the tribulation on God, it’s the culmination of God’s patience waiting for the world to turn to him.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Even in the Book of Revelation, even after the judgments are setting in, it says they still did not repent of their sin and still rebelled against God. All the way to where at the end of the Book of Revelation, nations literally tried to fight God. I mean, how stupid is that?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s how deceived they are and that’s how evil they are. So it’s really a time we should celebrate, not because of the scary stuff, but because God is bringing things to a close, and like you said, he has a plan. If he’s got a plan for the whole world, you better believe he’s got a plan for our lives. He’s intimately involved in every detail our lives as well.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yes. Yeah, God has a macro plan for the world and for Israel, he has a micro plan for our lives. You say, “Well, gosh, how do I find that plan?” Well, guess what? You find the macro plan by getting into the word, finding out what God’s going to do in world history. It’s exactly how we find out God’s plan for our lives.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: When we understand God’s mind, God’s heart, which we find in the word of God, and we get his principles in our heart, we get to know him. Can’t know God without the Bible-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Because God’s revealed himself in the Bible. So that’s why it’s so important for us, Todd, to always be really married to the scriptures, anchored in the scriptures, have our tent pegs just driven down very deep into the scriptures, because that’s where we get the insight, the wisdom and the plan that God has for our own lives.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And the clarity. The confusing things of the world or the confusing things that people hear, even about the Bible, some people just throw their hands up and kind of give up. But really what God wants you to do is dive in yourself and figure it out, wrestle with it until you fully understand it, and you’ll find that it changes you and encourages you along the way.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yes. That’s a great point, because when people look at Israel today and they’re seeing all the attempts at, yeah, there’s attempts at peace, there’s attempts at war. There’s hundreds and hundreds of rockets being fired in Israel every single month and the iron dome sort of protecting them from that. So it kind of creates, like you said, confusion, sort of like a fog. But with our car, we’ve got these thing called fog lights as we drive in the fog. Doesn’t take the fog away completely, but it does give us clarity and confident enough to drive through the fog.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I think that’s what we’re seeing right now. We’re seeing these, as you said earlier, birth pangs, in previous podcasts. Birth pangs, where it’s like when a woman is pregnant, she gets these contractions. Sometimes she gets false contractions, they’re called Braxton Hicks contractions. They’re like, “False alarm, you’re not really having a baby right now.” I think some people mistake sometimes those Braxton Hicks contractions for the real thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: With prophecy, they go, “Oh, this must be the fulfillment of Bible prophecy.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, not necessarily. I mean, it could be, like you said, the birth pangs.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Stage setting or-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, a stage setting, kind of like in a theater and a play. I mean, there’s the backdrop and people are putting different players on the stage, but the play hasn’t started yet. I think that’s what we’re seeing right now. We’re seeing God just like chess pieces on a chess board, he’s moving the pieces into place with nations and events. I mean, even with what’s going on in the world today, the Bible says that the whole creation in Romans eight groans redemption.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So we’re seeing that with the earthquakes and the cataclysmic events that are happening in the world. It’s just a sign that the earth is ready to be redeemed. I think in the Middle East, we’re seeing this powder keg, this boiling pot as it were, it’s ready to explode. We need to have the confidence of knowing that not only is God going to redeem his church out of that future time, but also when it does happen, that God’s still going to be guiding history. Satan doesn’t have free reign completely, God is still overseeing the whole thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I’m glad you mentioned that, because there is this tension between man’s responsibility and God’s sovereignty. We see that in our personal lives, we see that in the doctrines of salvation, we see that in history, like we mentioned earlier. In a sense, God could have ushered in his kingdom when Jesus came the first time, even though God had predicted that that wasn’t going to happen. But in a sense, if they would have responded, he would have ushered it in all then. Because they didn’t, we’re blessed, the Gentiles get to be grafted in. That was part of God’s plan as well.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So I’m going to mention that too, because people often wonder that between, well, if God’s dictating everything, why am I responsible? Well, we can’t figure that out, we’re not God. We can’t reconcile that in between our ears. But there’s this tension between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility, and all we can do is just learn as much as we can about the Lord and respond as much as we can and know that he’s got this plan in tact.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right. Today there’s a lot of talk about being on the “right side of history” out there.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: You can say, “Well, you need to get on the gay rights agenda to be on the right side of history.” But when we look at the Bible, we see what the right side of history is.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: The right side of history is to be pro-Israel.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yep.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: What that doesn’t mean, Todd, is that we agree with everything that the nation of Israel does-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Or that they’re perfect and deserving of-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, that they’re perfect. They’re an unredeemed nation right now, but yet God is still guiding them specifically and generally towards an appointed end.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yep.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So it just means that we in support, we’re an ally, we’re a fan of Israel, that type of thing. It also doesn’t mean, and this is another question that I get asked a lot, does that mean that if you’re born Jewish that you’re automatically saved? Well, no, that doesn’t mean that at all. I mean, each individual has to make a decision to follow Jesus Christ. You and I both know many Jewish believers who have become Christians, and some people call them completed Jews or messianic Jews or whatever. But in the end, they’re brothers and sisters in Christ and they are a part of the church.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But in the end, as far as the nation Israel’s concerned, God’s got unfinished business with them. If we’re going to be like that promise of Abraham, bless those who bless you, Israel, then that’s how we are on the right side of history.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I want to be blessed, man.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, exactly. I want to make sure that-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Even from a selfish standpoint, I want to be blessed, I want to do what God says is going to bless me.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. I think that’s so important for us to understand that it’s not just a … people talk about the president and how he’s pro-Israel, and that’s great and everything, but it’s not a political thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It really is, in essence, a spiritual thing. I think what God allows us at times to do is, as a country, to experience that blessing through having a president that is pro-Israel.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Blessing Israel, yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: We haven’t always had that in recent administrations, and so, I mean, it’s a great time. It doesn’t mean that everything that he does with Israel is perfect or great, but it just means on a general sense, that we are pro-Israel, we’re their greatest … we’re kind of like their big brother in a sense.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. That’s a really important point and one that I think Christians in particular really at this time need to understand, is that forget about politics, forget about right versus left and all the stuff that’s in our face, look biblically at the issues and follow God’s plan. That’s where we need to focus. I think the enemy’s done a great job of fooling a lot of Christians into getting caught up into political stuff when we’re saying, “No, look at the underlying biblical plan and framework that God has set up and let’s follow that.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Absolutely. I think just to close out to say that people have said that the greatest miracle of the 20th century was the Jewish people becoming a nation again, returning to Israel. Really nothing can happen in the tribulation period as it relates to Israel, unless they’re in the land.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I mean, the war of Gog and Magog, which we’ll talk about in a future podcast, can’t happen unless Israel’s living securely in the land. The temple can’t be rebuilt unless they’re there, the sacrifices, everything. So it has to happen. But guess what, folks? They’re in the land, they’re a nation again.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I’m reminded of a quote by a Benjamin Disraeli who is a 19th century British statesman. He was asked one time, because he was of Jewish ancestry, obviously, he was asked one time if he knew of any infallible proof of God’s existence. He thought for a moment and he paused, and then he looked at the person asking the question, with confidence he said, “The Jew, sir, the Jew.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I think the fact that there are still Jews that are alive today, that they’re living in the nation of Israel is clear evidence of the fact that the word of God is authenticated, it’s true, it can be trusted. That, yes, there is a God who does write history. So the existence of Israel is this miracle, it’s the sign of the end times and that’s why we believe that we’re living in that time.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. We know that we’ve probably answered some questions for you and unveiled new questions that you might have. So we want you to feel free and we encourage to send us those questions. We want to make sure we’re answering some questions that you have and want to make sure we’re hitting the mark. So if you go to prophecyprospodcast.com, you can ask us questions there. You can also find out about our ministries and also where you can follow us on social media. So until next time, this is Todd and Jeff for the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Hey, thank you so much for listening, we’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe, if you have not done so already. If you like what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review. That does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot. For more resources or to ask questions or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. A major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,87 +0,0 @@
|
||||
|
||||
![[S1E8: Dillon Burroughs – Purpose of a Watchman.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast. We are thrilled today to interview another person. Jeff, why don’t you tell us who we’re interviewing today?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: You know, Todd, there’s a verse in Isaiah chapter 62 verse six that says, on your walls, oh Jerusalem, I have set watchmen. The purpose of a watchman is to help the people that are inside the walls know what’s coming. That’s what our guest today is going to help us do. His name is Dillon Burroughs and he’s with an organization called I am a Watchman. This organization is committed to Bible prophecy, to get the message about prophecy out there. He has interviewed a ton of guests on his program there, so he has an incredible amount of expertise and influence in this area. Dillon is a Master of Theology graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, and he also has a PhD, and is also working on another PhD. This is not a slacker here, Todd. This is a bonafide guy. He knows what he’s talking about, so we’re glad to welcome Dillon to the show. He’s very passionate about Bible prophecy. Let’s get started.
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Jeff: We’re talking today with Dillon Burroughs and Dillon, it’s great to have you on the Prophecy Pros podcast. Thanks for taking the time out here at National Religious Broadcasters convention to be a part of this.
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Dillon: Yes, Jeff, it’s great to be with you today.
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Jeff: Awesome. Tell us a little bit about your background, how you got into Bible prophecy and what sparked your interest in the whole area.
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Dillon: In college, I felt this strong calling to serve in ministry. I was at a state university, didn’t have a lot of resources, but I did find a Ryrie study Bible, and when I began reading the Ryrie study Bible, I saw these notes about Bible prophecy that I hadn’t seen anywhere else. As I studied them more, it led me to other resources. A lot of these were from Dallas Seminary professors who were really big on Bible prophecy. When I graduated from college and was looking at what seminary to go to, there was only one choice. We moved to Dallas, Texas, my wife and I, we were newly married, right out of college, spent time with people like Dr. John Walvoord, some of the other top prophecy scholars that they had there during those years. During that time it was so formative to me, that when I would go to colleges and churches and conferences and talk about Bible prophecy, I realized I had all this information that most people have never accessed. Now I had this deep responsibility and privilege to communicate Bible prophecy to a new generation based on what I’ve been blessed with.
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Jeff: It sounds so similar to my story. We got married, moved to Dallas and started seminary at about the same time. I’m taking pictures of parking spaces. Oh, that’s Dr. Walvoord’s space.
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Dillon: Your heroes, yeah.
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Jeff: I was such a newbie. I was a fan, to put it the least. The point is, when we talk about Bible prophecy, there’s so much white noise out there and so many people are talking about speculative things and stuff. How did you decide that you would be a part of a ministry, and tell us a bit about your ministry, but how’d you decide to be part of a ministry that that’s sole purpose would.
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Dillon: Well, I’ve been involved in apologetics for many years and one of the things I found that has been most effective in apologetics is to look at the fulfilled prophecies of scripture. The Jews did that in the early church. They used the prophecies of the Old Testament about Jesus as the Messiah to show people the way to Christ. I started doing that myself, and I thought prophecy is so unutilized in communicating the gospel. Why don’t I try to do that some more? So did that, but it also led to this fascination of people wanting to know about the end times.
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Dillon: Every time there’s a headline that happens in the Middle East or even here in America, what does the Bible say about that? Well, most people have no clue, so if you can give a basic answer for that, suddenly they’re interested in more. You can take them to Ezekiel 38 and talk about the nations that will align against Israel and how that’s shaping up today. You can take them to Revelation and talk about this revived Roman empire that will arise in the last days and a global leader called the antichrist during the tribulation, and show that all these things are coming very close to fulfillment in our time. As a result, we should be living a life that’s pleasing to the Lord and communicating the gospel.
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Todd: Amen. Man, I’m so glad we have you on the show because you have the same heartbeat we do. We’re trying to package and present Bible prophecy to a whole new generation that has never heard it before or has heard just enough that they’re inoculated to it, that they know they don’t want to understand it, but they’re missing out on what I call the central nervous system of the Bible. I actually have a similar background. I was unchurched, but I came to the Lord primarily because of fulfilled Bible prophecy as an apologetic proved to me that the Bible was from God. That got my attention. Then I started studying the rest of it. What you guys have been doing, you guys have some amazing ministry tools that you’ve been rolling out and some doing interviews nonstop, yourselves and stuff like that. What are some ways that you’ve been able to communicate to that next generation? What are some tools that you’ve used or some approaches that you’ve used that seem to be effective in conveying that information to a new generation?
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Dillon: Well, I think some of the most important things that we’ve done has been able to connect what’s going on in culture with aspects of the Bible. Not just going into these fringe things about predicting the dates and the color of the antichrist’s shoes and some of these things nobody is going to know, but just the essentials that are shaping up in terms of globalism, in terms of the church becoming hardened to the things of God. You look at this and say this isn’t stuff that just accidentally happened. This is stuff Jesus said in Matthew 24 is coming. These are all signs of the last days.
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Dillon: When people see that it gives them this urgency, I guess, that they’ve lacked before. I think that’s the biggest thing that I try to communicate is that there’s this urgency that’s lacking in the church. Nobody is talking about Jesus can come back at any moment. Are we living like it? We talk a lot of times about making an impact with our lives, but we don’t do it from the perspective that Jesus might be the reason that life ends today, not just you might go out and get hit by a bus or something like that. There’s a spiritual motivation that is lacking among many Christians. If I can just communicate that one thing. The apostles lived like Jesus could come back any moment, and he wants us to do the same. I’ve made some good progress right there. We do that in different ways through social media. At I a Watchman ministries, we focus first on Facebook because that was the largest platform.
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Dillon: One thing that’s grown a lot is this area of podcasting because everybody’s wanting to listen to content. We started a podcast, my friend Joe and I, we’re the cohosts of it, and at iamawatchman.com, you can see our episodes. You guys have been on some of them. What you see is that people are eager to hear the perspectives of others who’ve researched some of the end times topics. Whether it’s the content you’ve produced over the years or whether some of the things we’ve brought in from people like Ron Rhodes or Mark Hitchcock, or even political leaders who are talking about things related to Israel and the Middle East, people are fascinated by it. If you can talk about it in a way that’s not too weird, that connects with real life, they’re coming back for more. That’s what we’re seeing again and again.
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Todd: That is so exciting. You talk about the church and where we are today. You read the book of Revelation and in the first couple of of chapters, Jesus talks to the seven churches, and he says to one of those churches, wake up, Revelation 3:2. It seems that the church in many ways has not changed in that sense. We have a tendency to fall asleep, to be lethargic. We’re just two generations away from the crucifixion of Christ, and already the churches have wandered way off course. As you guys look at the state of the church today and have your finger on that pulse, what do you think are some of the reasons why the church has really lulled herself to sleep today regarding Bible prophecy?
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Dillon: That’s such a good question. I think the number one thing I see is that the American church focuses on the here and now. You think about how can I lose 10 pounds by next month, or how can I get a better position in my career? How can I get a degree or this relationship? It’s all about the here and now. Ed Hindson does a good job of joking about that. He says that when students come into the University of Liberty, where he teaches, and he talks about the rapture, all the students say, oOh, I hope Jesus doesn’t come back yet. I want to get married, have some kids. Then a few years later he sees them and they are married and they have kids and they say, I hope Jesus comes back today. That’s the reality that we’re missing, that when life is difficult, you look New Testament. When they were persecuted, they said, Lord Jesus, come quickly. Because we lack that persecution in American culture in so many ways, we have it so easy, all these service times we can go to, all these resources and websites, that we don’t take seriously the commands of scripture to live for him fully today because this could be the last day before his coming.
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Jeff: Absolutely.
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Todd: That’s a great point. You mentioned II Thessalonians chapter two where these false teachers had come into the church and they were basically telling the church, hey, you’re in the day of the Lord right now. Of course, they bought that because they were being persecuted, they were being marginalized in a culture that was very hostile against Christianity. Today, as you said, we don’t have that right now, so there is a sense in which we tend to have more of a comfortable approach to Christianity, more casual type thing. There’s not that sense of purposeful urgency about preparing for the return of the Lord, being the bride that has clothed in that fine white linen ready for our bridegroom to come back.
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Todd: I think part of what that does is that, like you said earlier, we’re preoccupied with the here and now and meeting our own needs. I think that’s something that Todd and I’ve experienced as well, where people are, it’s almost like you walk into a room, someone’s asleep and you turn the light on. They’re like, whoa, this truth, it’s really blinding me. Could you just dim the lights up gradually on me? The church today, I feel like is in that sleeping mode by and large, although there are some Christians that are getting it. You guys have had a ton of guests on your show and there’s so many issues that you’ve covered. Is there maybe one or two issues that you see as more of a refrain or a reoccurring theme that are coming up with some of the authors and speakers and people that you’ve had on your show?
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Dillon: Well, two things that come to mind initially. One is that when things are going bad in our world, people say, does the Bible say anything about this? That’s your open door, whether it’s a Christian or a non-Christian. Yes, I’ve studied the Bible. There’s a lot in the Bible about this. Wouldn’t it be great if there is some information we could share?
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Dillon: Then that second aspect that we see increasingly, at least right now in our culture, is this focus on Israel. I love that because you have a president right now who has built very strong relationships with governing leaders in Israel. You see changes taking place that are phenomenal, that you could say are almost miraculous. The example of the embassy of America being moved to Jerusalem on the exact day and in the exact hour of the 70th anniversary of modern Israel. That’s a pretty big deal. It doesn’t make the headline news like some of the other things we see, but that is so significant because Bible prophecy says that in the last days Israel will be in its land, and it’s there. That the people from the nations would come back and millions have. That they would speak the same language again.
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||||
Dillon: When we look at the end times in the tribulation, there’s going to be a temple in Jerusalem again. People look at that and say, well, how is that going to work? Well, if you look into it, there’s a Temple Institute that has all of the resources and all the plans ready. They could build this thing about as quickly as we could put together a house if they were just given the green light. We have some very volatile real estate involved, but if things were to change there politically in some way, that could very quickly shape up and very much fulfill what we see in the tribulation.
|
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Todd: Yeah. You bring up a lot of really interesting points. As you’re talking, I’m thinking from the perspective of the people that we’re trying to reach, millennials and gen Z. I mean really everybody, but we really are trying to package this for a new generation that is really confused by it. Even when you look in cultural Christianity, some people don’t even know, are we supposed to be for Israel or against Israel? There’s so much confusion there, where those of us who study Bible prophecy know clearly no, we are … bless those who bless you and you’ll curse those who curse you. We’re to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, we’re to support Israel at every turn, not because of who they are, but because of God’s purposes and God’s promises and everything that happens in the end times.
|
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|
||||
Todd: All that to say, what would you say to a millennial who’s being bombarded by all these different voices that we need to be against Israel or for Israel, or that there are so many different versions of the end time events that how do I know pre-trip is the one? I mean we know from studying scripture, it’s crystal clear and that’s our, that’s our hope. That’s our blessed assurance, our blessed hope, that we’re going to be raptured before the tribulation and we’re not appointed to wrath and all these beautiful things.
|
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||||
Todd: It just seems like that the culture at large, especially the younger generations, have heard so much infighting and so much confusion and so many different voices that they don’t even know who to listen to. We’re actually trying to gain credibility with them as a trusted voice. We want to share our beliefs, but we’re very careful not to say, not to be adamant about in the bushes or the sensational things. There are concrete things, whether it’s Israel or pre-trib rapture, those kinds of things. I’m rambling a little bit, but what could you say to that audience that would kind of convince them to at least take a look at the fact that Bible prophecy sheds light on all these things, not in a debatable way, but really in a crystal clear way that we should understand?
|
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||||
Dillon: Right. Well, you touched on a lot of things there. I’ll address a couple of them. First, when it comes to Israel, we are in a culture today where everybody wants to fight racism, but when you talk about Israel, there’s some kind of exception clause there. If we talk about the Jewish people, if we talk about Israel in the sense that this is a racial group in addition to a spiritual group, and we want to show compassion, kindness, and honesty and not discriminate against the Jewish people, and put it in the same terms as human rights activists would for other groups, then I think we’ve made a good case right there without even going to the Bible.
|
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Dillon: The second thing you talk about is this idea of the pre-trib rapture and how do you get people to even consider that when they either don’t know what it is or they oppose it? For me, the biggest eye opening case for that was when you look at scripture regarding the end times, there are all these passages that talk about Jesus coming back. Some of them talk about the day of the Lord, and some of them talk about events like he’s coming back and we’re all going up to heaven with him. When you start looking at the differences between the rapture passages and the second coming passages, you put them on a list and you go, this can’t be the same event. There are so many things that are different between one and the other. It’s almost like some kind of weird aerobics class where you go up, come down and do all kinds of different activities all in one act. That doesn’t seem to be consistent with what the Bible teaches.
|
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Dillon: The way to make the most sense out of it is to say there’s going to be a rapture at any moment where all the believers, the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then all who are living will go to be with the Lord forever, for eternity to escape the tribulation period. Then there’s a time at the end of the tribulation where Jesus comes back with all of us and we get to be part of this final coming of Jesus, where he comes and it’s not just for a moment, but he stays and he reigns for a thousand years in Jerusalem, which is another reason why we should support Israel.
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Dillon: Then at the end of that, there’s a final judgment and come back at Satan, and there’s a new heaven and a new earth and a new heavenly city called Jerusalem. Even though it’s going to be rebuilt and redesigned much better than, it’s still talking about, Israel is still talking about the Jewish people, it’s still talking about the things that we’re sharing now that are important as being important now and through all eternity future. It’s not just a limited time offer, but you’re talking about God has promised to Abraham something that’s going to be now and in the future for all eternity.
|
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Jeff: Amen. You know, it’s interesting. Todd and I were just at a Christian school of over 500 high school students. We spoke for three days there and there were two questions, one that Todd asked, one that I asked, that really almost, it was really an eye opening thing, very emotional moment, I think for both of us. I asked the students, I said, how many of you guys have ever been taught through Revelation at your church and your youth group or through even Bible prophecy as a whole? Over 500 students, only a handful raised their hands. Then Todd asked a very pointed question. He said, how many of you guys in the past week have heard something about global crisis into the world, climate change, all this stuff that predicting an existential threat to humanity, every single hand went up. It’s on their mind, it’s on their consciousness.
|
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Jeff: It really illustrates two areas of the body of Christ. There’s ignorance on one hand, but there’s interest on the other hand. On the idea of interest, Dillon, tell us, in wrapping this thing up here, tell us what would be maybe a first step or two that a person who’s maybe someone’s a college student right now, is listening to this, or maybe someone is a young professional, they’re listening to this on their way to work or whatever. What would be one or two things that they could do in the beginning to start engaging in Bible prophecy? Just simple baby steps here.
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Dillon: Right. I think for me the most important Biblical passage on rapture and the end times is I Thessalonians four. If you look at the last part of that chapter, it gives a clear description of the rapture, that it’s any moment. The dead in Christ rise first. We go up to be with the Lord forever. This is an incredible prophecy that’s not talked about very much. Paul gets to the end of that and he says, therefore encourage one another with these words. For me, when it comes to talking about Bible prophecy, you see all the book covers with the bombs and the planes and the doom and the gloom. I say, no, that’s not what scripture presents for believers.
|
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||||
Dillon: Prophecy is an encouragement. We’ve gotten the story framed wrong from the start, that Christians look at prophecy and we get excited because of what’s to come. We don’t look at it and go, oh no, look what’s going to happen in the future. That’s for the unbeliever. It gives us a comfort as believers, especially when you talk to believers who are coming toward the end of their lives and they’re thinking, what’s going to happen after this life is over? Well, look at the promises of the Bible. Jesus could come back before you’re gone, but if he doesn’t, look at what lies ahead for you in eternity future.
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||||
Dillon: This should be a blessing. For me, I lost my dad at the age of 24. I had just gone to seminary. He had finally given way to cancer. He knew the Lord and I knew he was going to heaven. When it was all said and done, I was sad. I mourned, I grieved just like anybody would, but I realized I would see him again. That’s something that the believer has that is a hope in this world that people are lacking, that people need. If they can find it through a conversation with you and through the scriptures, it will change their life in a radical way.
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|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, so engaging the scriptures, Todd.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yeah, absolutely. To me, that’s foundational. You can’t believe Bible prophecy or study it properly unless you first start with the baseline that the Bible is the word of God. Every word in it is intentional. God doesn’t contradict himself, and we can trust it and study it systematically. I think those waters have been so muddied that people don’t know. They think there’s truth in the Bible, but they don’t realize that you can systematically study it and come to logical conclusions that God wanted us to understand. That’s the cerebral part of it. The emotional and spiritual part is what you said, Dillon. When your loved ones die, when you get hit with a job loss or sickness or whatever, where are you going to turn? God’s hand is on the steering wheel of the world and his hand is on the steering wheel of our lives and there’s nothing that could give us more hope than that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: The last verse, that passage he was quoting, verse 18 he says, therefore comfort one another. Nothing more comforting than knowing that Jesus has got this, and he’s got us, and he’s going to rescue us from the coming wrath.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Dillon, thank you so much for being here, man. We want to highlight your ministry. We want people to know where to find you, what really cool things you’re working on right now. Feel free to share any cool projects or any cool initiatives, and also how people can get in contact with your ministry.
|
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|
||||
Dillon: Sure. To find out more, go to iamawatchman.com. iamawatchman.com is where you can find all of our radio episodes, everybody from Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, to you guys have been on there, but we also have tons of articles, devotionals that you can pick up, social media tools that you could share with your friends and family. We want to give you lots of opportunities to be a resource, but also to have a community and to know you’re not the only one out there who is dealing with these issues. There are many people out there who consider themselves watchmen on the wall, who want to make an impact in these last days.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Amen. Thank you so much. Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe if you have not done so already. If you liked what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review. That does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot. For more resources or to ask questions or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com, and a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House publishers for helping us with this podcast.
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![[S1E9: Are we living in the days of Noah?.mp3]]
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---
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Todd:A few years ago, one of the most popular names that popped up was Noah. And that hadn’t been seen for a long time. So, what in the world does Noah have to do with Bible prophecy? Stay tuned. That’s what we’re going to talk about next.
|
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|
||||
Todd:Welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast with Jeff Kinley and Todd Hampson. And today, we’re talking about the days of Noah. So, stay tuned. This is going to be really cool.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:So, Jeff, I just want to kick it off talking about the opening words of Jesus’ biggest talk on the end time. It’s the second longest teaching in scripture and it was specifically on the end times. And we find… Probably the primary area we can find it is in Matthew 24. And I’ll just read a couple verses there. It says, “Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. ‘Do you see all these things?’ he asked? ‘I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another. Everyone will be thrown down.’ As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. ‘Tell us,’ they said, ‘when will this happen, the destruction of the temple? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?'” And then Jesus gave them a whole list of signs to look for, but he opened with this. “Jesus answered, ‘Watch out that no one deceives you.'” That’s a pretty powerful opening to that whole section.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah, it really is because there’s a lot of deception today, Todd, about the end times. And I find it very interesting that when they asked Jesus that question, he didn’t rebuke them. He didn’t say, “No, we don’t need to be talking about prophecy. Let’s talk about loving one another,” or, “Let’s go over here. Let’s have some fellowship together. Let’s go bowling,” or something like that. No. He launches into this apocalyptic vision that we read about in the Book of Revelation.
|
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|
||||
Jeff:And then he ends up, he goes all the way to verse 37, he says, “For the coming of the Son of Man… To answer your question, gentlemen,” he says, “The coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.” “Whoa, what are you talking about, Jesus?” Well, he goes on to say, “For in those days, of which were before the flood, they were eating and drinking and they were marrying and giving in marriage until the day that Noah entered the ark. And they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away. So shall the coming of the Son of Man be.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Those are really sobering words, Todd. I mean, these are not just fun little precious promises we put on our mantle at home kind of thing. I mean, these are predictions and prophecies about the end of time. And Jesus says it’s going to be like it was in the days of Noah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Now, you have to understand the context here. A couple things is, one is that when Jesus mentions the days of Noah, that’s not a happy rainbow kind of time for those guys. These Jewish males understood the days of Noah. They understood what was going on there. They understood that people were just living their lives, going about their business. But what kind of business? What kind of lives?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah. What characterized those times?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah, exactly. What’s going on during those times. And as we sort of rewind back to Genesis chapter 6, we see, sort of emerging out of the waters of history, these four characteristics that I think characterize the days of Noah that I think we’re going to see, we actually do see during the tribulation period, during the Book of Revelation. So, we look back at Noah’s day, we look forward to the days of the tribulation, then we look around to our day and we go, “Whoa, how are we mirroring those days?”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:So, if we go back to Genesis chapter 6, the Bible says in verse 5, it says, “Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” Now, keep in mind, this is from God’s perspective, not necessarily from man’s perspective. But God’s looking at humanity. He’s going, “All you guys do is sin. That’s all you think about. You’re just thinking about me, me, me.” And you just look around our world today. There are characteristics of that as well.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:But let’s see more specifically what’s going on here. It says in verse 6, “And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth. And he was grieved in his heart.” Those are synonymous phrases there, Todd. It just means that God had sorrow in his heart. “Well, gosh, can we make God sad?” Yeah, God can grieve. The Holy Spirit can be grieved, Ephesians chapter 4 tells us. It says, “And the Lord said, ‘I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the land, from the animals to creeping things to birds of the sky for I am sorry I have made them.'” Think about how sinful, how wicked we have to get that God finally looks down and says, “You know what? I can’t do this anymore. I mean, this is enough.” And so, it says, “But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. He was a righteous man.” It says in verse 9, “Blameless in his time.” He wasn’t a perfect person, but he was blameless in his time. But here’s the key phrase though, it says, “And Noah walked with God.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:So, what do we see that’s going on during the days of Noah? I mean, what marked this? Well, we already saw one of them. It’s just a complete lack of God in people’s lives. It was just godlessness. It was just pandemic godlessness. And the way I think we’re seeing that happen today, Todd, is that we, in our culture, we want to get God out of every aspect of our culture, out of our society. We don’t want God in our schools.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Kicking him out of everything, yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Get out God. We don’t want God in our education, higher education. We don’t want God in science. We want to create our own truth, our own reality. I mean, Romans 1 talks about the fact that when we look at the heavens and we see the clear evidence of God’s handiwork. And when we reject that, the Bible says that our foolish hearts are darkened.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:You and I talked briefly about that yesterday. We had dinner with my son. And we were talking about the sense of awe when you stop and think about space and stars and outer space and inner space, like biology. You should be in just utter awe of what God has created. How people can become so coarse and callous. Like you said, Romans 1 shows that whole trajectory, how they reject God and just they don’t even see him in that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah. Well, if you think about it, no one looks up anymore. I mean, in these days, I mean, they looked up at the sky at night. There weren’t street lights and skyscrapers and things like that. But they were looking at the heavens. And God, in Psalm 19, says that the heavens declare the handiwork of God. I think it was Charles Spurgeon who said that the stars are God’s traveling preachers.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:That’s awesome.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:They go across the sky at night. And I think that’s one of the things that we lack in our world today, is that we’re not looking up and contemplating the world and the earth and the sky and the heavens that God has made. And even when we do, we’ve been brainwashed and inundated with secular philosophies that tell us, “No, God didn’t make that.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:It’s all an accident.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:It just happened. “Now, where the materials came from, we can’t tell you. We have to have faith in that.” Oh, so it’s a religion kind of thing for them too.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:And here’s the wild thing, is that blindness and that deception like we talked about Jesus said, “Do not be deceived.” By and large, most people are deceived and believe we’re here by accident, evolution’s true, whole nine yards. So, we’ve lost that awe and wonder for God. And what that naturally does… Then we wonder why society’s falling apart.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Paul picks up on the… He doesn’t mention Noah, but he also reiterates that whole phenomena. In 2nd Timothy 3, he says, “But mark this. There will be terrible times in the last days. People… ” And as I read this, think about recent news articles or things you’ve seen in the press. This should line up perfectly with what you see. “But Mark this. There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,” and this last one really seals the deal, “Having a form of godliness but denying its power.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:That’s so true. And really, it does really mirror the Romans chapter 1 there. And as you look at that passage, as I said earlier, he says that their foolish hearts were darkened.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And people think that they can just simply deny God’s existence or deny God’s work and just go on with their lives, but the Bible says no, there is a consequence to that. And this is kind of a hard topic to talk about, Todd, just real quickly. But in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, the Bible says in the end times, God himself is going to send a diluting influence upon those who refuse to believe in his gospel and in his truth. And we see that same thing happening in Romans chapter 1, where it says their foolish heart was darkened. And they become foolish in their speculations, are futile in their speculations. So, it’s like if you don’t have God to explain the universe, you have to think, “Well, I guess I can come up with my own idea.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Come up with some crazy stuff.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah, some crazy stuff. And here, scripture calls those speculations futile. And what’s really amazing is that, again, back to Genesis, that when we remove God from the picture and we’re left to ourselves, it’s like a blind man in the dark walking around trying to describe the room. And God says, “You’re just going to be making up stuff.” And that’s what they do. And what’s crazy is at the end of chapter 1, verse 22, it says, after they come up with these foolish speculations, it says, “Professing themselves to be wise, they become fools.” So, what’s really amazing is that we think that we’re smarter than God. When we get God out of the picture, we think that we’re really the point. But that word, “fool” there is a Greek word, “moros,” which we get our word, “moron” from.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:That would be fitting.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:I didn’t make that up. That’s actually the word. And, really, speaking just honestly is that we are morons when we take God out of the picture.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Apart from God.
|
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|
||||
Jeff:Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And we try to replace him with ourselves. And so, I think that’s one of the things we see back in the days of Noah that obviously they were thinking only of themselves. So, you think, “Well, what does that lead to?” Well, Genesis tells us what it leads to. In the next verse, it says, “The whole earth was corrupt in the sight of God and the earth was filled with violence.” And so, if you think about a culture, think about cities in the United States, you think about areas in the United States that are full of violence, those are areas where there is no God presence. You think about places in the Middle East where there’s no Christian God presence, a Judeo-Christian God, I mean, it’s full of violence.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And the reason we have violence, and people say, “Well, I think most of the wars in the world were fought by religious Christians.” Oh, no. Less than 2% of the world’s wars were fought because of Christianity. And those were just people that were corrupt. And, of course, there are just wars and that type of thing, but that’s another topic. The point is, is that a man or a woman left to themselves eventually will become violent because “I want what you have. I want to take by force.” So, if you can imagine the millions, perhaps billions of people living in a pre-flood earth. And they’re living without God. It’s a pagan, corrupt, a demonic culture, we know also from chapter 6, with the sons of God marrying the daughters of men. And so, you’ve got rampant violence. There’s bloodshed. Mankind bled the ground red during the days of Noah. And God didn’t like that. God does not like us just to go off killing each other.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:That’s right. Not a good thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah, it’s a violent culture. So, you don’t really have to jump in your imagination to imagine the robberies, the murders, the rapes, the assaults that went on. And it was global. It was happening everywhere and on a great scale. So, violence was one of the things that marks the days of Noah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:And along with Jesus’ words about the days of Noah, he reiterated there or added to it, talking about the fact that it would just be business as usual. People would continue in business and marriage and giving in marriage and all this stuff. So, it’d be kind of life as normal, even though all this violence and immorality was happening all around them. Kind of like we’re seeing today.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like when you ignore God, you just go about life as normal. I mean, there’s nothing you know… You just-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah. Even though people are getting killed left and right and there’s so much bad stuff happening.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And we, those who aren’t involved in that, try to ignore it and to buffer themselves from it. But eventually, it’s like the seeping floodwaters of a typhoon or a hurricane, it’s going to eventually break that levee and come into our lives. So, we see that violence.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Another thing that we see, I believe, is unrestrained immorality. We see that in verse 11. It says, “The earth was corrupt in the sight of God.” It’s a very interesting word that he uses there. And it’s a word that the same author, Moses, uses later in Exodus to describe the sexual immorality that was going on at the base of Mount Sinai. When Moses went up to receive the 10 commandments and Aaron melted down the gold, made the golden calf, it says that the children of Israel were rising up to play. And it’s that whole phrase that means to be corrupted.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:So, there’s a little more going on there than just making a golden calf.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah, yeah. When it says, “They rose up to play,” it doesn’t mean they were going to play chess or monopoly or something. I mean, they were engaged in gross-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Immorality.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:… sexual immorality. And, of course, we can just imagine everything that went on with that, everything from adultery to fornication to rape and to incest, to homosexuality, lesbianism, all the things that are involved in sexual immorality, which is another thing that Romans chapter 1 addresses in depth in detail, is the stages of a culture or of a nation that are being handed over to themselves. And God specifically says it is because of sexual immorality, homosexuality, lesbianism, and all the consequences that go along with that. But all that begins, Todd, with that godlessness that begins in Genesis chapter 6.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:And we should point out that anybody who’s caught up in any of that can be redeemed, can turn to the Lord, can be healed. There’s… I’m trying to remember where it is. One of Paul’s letters, he said, “Such were some of you,” and listed the worst of the worst and said, “Such were some of you.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:So, I think that’s a big lie that’s being pushed on the church of today, is that “You can’t change. You are who you are. God doesn’t really have standards.” No, he has very clear standards. And we need to speak to truth and love and accept people. He loves us too much to leave us the way we are. He wants to change us from the inside out. We can’t force that from the outside in. But I want to mention that because I know that’s a question that people have, is like, “Well, what about that issue? How can people change?” And absolutely, people can.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:We all have to keep our thought process in check and our actions in check, especially in these last days because there’s a lot of temptation coming at everybody in every form. So…
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Well, that’s very true. That 1st Corinthians 6 passage that you mentioned to me, he mentioned several different types of sin. I think it’s important for the church to know that a lot of people in the Christian church have sort of pendulum-swung from the, “Oh, we shouldn’t condemn sin,” all the way over to accepting the sin. And really, the key thing I think we have to understand, Todd, is that God is not telling people just, “Hey, you people down there sinning, stop it! Just stop it right now!” That’s not his point; his point is he wants to redeem us and change us-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:He loves us.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:… from the inside out. Yeah, because he loves us. And so, for example, homosexuality. God’s not saying, “Just stop being gay.” No, he wants to save that person, to give them a brand new heart, a brand new mind. And that’s quote, unquote “the cure.” I mean, that’s what they need, is not to just stop sending, but to become a brand new person. As Paul says in 2nd Corinthians 5:17, “New creature in Christ: old things have passed away; new things have come.” And that’s the message.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:The Bible says that Noah was a preacher of righteousness. And what’s significant about that? We think, “Noah, well, hell, he was just a great carpenter. Him and eventually his sons, they just hammered and sawed all day long.” But it was more than that. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Enoch was another man living during that time, as well as Methuselah. And people say, “Methuselah. He lived 969 years.” What’s very interesting about Methuselah is his name. The name, Methuselah, means when he is gone, it will come.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah. That’s powerful.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And the Bible then tells us, “In the year that Methuselah died, the flood came.” So, it’s like his very name was preaching to the world. And I’m sure it wasn’t just the fact that… I’m sure there was preaching along with that. But Enoch was a preacher of righteousness as well. And, in fact, he walked with God so closely that God raptured him before the flood came, which is another evidence of…
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:And I’ve heard a lot of teachers say that that’s a picture of the end times too, that Enoch represents the church being raptured; and then Noah and his family represent the Jews being carried through the tribulation or the judgment and then being saved at the end. That’s pretty powerful typology right there.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:It really is. And consider when we look at ourselves, and there’s another aspect we’re going to bring up here in a minute, but we look at ourselves and our world, the world around us and we go, “Wow, things are getting so bad.” And it’s like it seems like the floodwaters of evil are just creeping in and depravity is on parade. And people are not just accepting their sin; they’re celebrating their sin.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:And wanting everyone else to celebrate. You’re not doing good unless you’re celebrating everything bad I’m doing.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah, that’s right. And, Todd, we’re living in a country where legislation is being made, where we not only legalize certain sins, but in certain parts of the country Christians are being forced to accept certain lifestyles. We’re being sued because of our refusal to take part in certain type of sinful activities.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And Noah lived in a similar time. And every time he hammered with his hammer, he was saying to the world, “Listen, I’m preparing this ark. God is demanding that you repent.” But what’s tragic about Noah’s day is that no one repented.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And what does that tell us about the deception of sin in a world, in a culture, when you love your sin so much that you look at the preacher of righteousness and you demonize him instead of looking in the mirror and comparing yourself to God’s standard? So-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:I was going to say, I imagine during that time, because it was a long period of time he was building the ark, I’m sure he was made fun of, he was mocked. He had opportunities to witness and be a preacher of righteousness. So, he’s really a snapshot of what… it’s kind of like the closer we get to the Lord’s return, what it’s going to be like for believers. So, we should talk about that too, the practical side. So, how do we live in a time like this?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah. I think that’s a great point because I think, as you said, I talk about in my book, As It Was in the Days of Noah, how they must have looked at Noah’s ark and called it Noah’s folly. It’s like, “Hey, it’s never rained before and you’re building a boat.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:“You’re crazy.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yes, exactly. It’s like, “Noah, you’ve been in the sun too long here, bud.” But we live in a world today where Christian beliefs and scriptural principles are mocked. They’re ridiculed. And it’s very interesting that when we talk about Jesus coming back and that type of thing, how people want to make fun of that. But what I find just fascinating, as I look at what Peter wrote to those believers that were scattered across Asia Minor, listen to this. He says in 2nd Peter chapter 3, he says, “Know this. Know this.” So, there’s some clarity for us. He says, “First of all, that in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking, following after,” what? “Their own lusts.” Whoa. Does that sound like the days of Noah? Does that sound like our day?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yep.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yes, it does. And then what are they saying to us? They’re saying, “Where is the promise of your Lord’s coming? I mean, come on, dude. You guys have been crying wolf for 2,000 years. He’s not coming back yet.” [inaudible 00:20:02] “For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues as it was from the beginning.” And then it says, “They deny the fact that the world was once flooded with water.” So, you’ve got Noah’s day mocking Noah. You’ve got the end-times generation mocking Noah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:“The flood never happened.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:[crosstalk 00:20:21] mocking our belief.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:“The Grand Canyon’s not concrete evidence that there was a flood.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Rights, right. And all these fossils we find at the top of mountains and sea creatures and that kind of thing, you know?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Mm-hmm (affirmative).
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:But it’s very interesting to me that today, it’s not just standing up and saying, “Jesus is God,” or, “The Bible is the word of God,” and being mocked for that. Although we are. It’s just saying something simple like, “Man was made for woman,” or, “A man is a man and can’t be a woman.” Just simple. Or, “He’s not supposed to have intercourse with another man.” I mean, those are kind of elementary moral principles. They’re not really deep things; they’re just elementary things. And yet, the world doesn’t just mock us; they get livid. They become unhinged. There’s protests. There’s violence. There’s threats of killing people type thing all because we’re simply saying the elementary things of scripture.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:So, how do we then respond to that? Well, in verse 8 of 2nd Peter 3, it says, “But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord, one day is 1,000 years and 1,000 years is one day.” What’s he saying there? He’s saying that God is beyond time and that he understands. He has a lot of patience for people, which is what the next verse says. “The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is patient towards you, not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.” So, here’s a couple of things that I get-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Love that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah, it’s so beautiful. Now, think, this gives us hope, Todd, in the world that we live in. Number one, you and I cannot change culture. In and of ourselves, we don’t have the power to go in and just change people’s lives, change culture.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And it’s important for us to stand for what’s right. And there are times when we need to declare the truth of God to the culture, much like the Old Testament prophets did to Israel. But we can’t just curse the darkness; we have to light a candle. And Jesus says, “We are that candle.” The light of Jesus Christ in us is the candle in the darkness.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And so, on the one hand, yes, we need to stand for truth and to call out culture when it’s appropriate to do that and to stand for morality and what’s right. But on the other hand, we need to give the solution. And in Noah’s day, he wasn’t just saying, “Hey, stop killing each other. Stop sleeping with each other,” all this stuff. But he said, “Hey, but here’s an ark,” kind of thing. And so, there is a positive aspect to that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And I think obviously, the first thing that we need to understand is that we, ourselves need to keep ourselves clean, you know?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Mm-hmm (affirmative).
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:We need to make sure that we are not indulging in the flesh, as Peter talks about in 2nd Peter chapter 2, but to remember that Christ has given us a way and given us answers to give to them.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:That’s right. I love what Ephesians 4:15 says, just simply, “Instead speaking the truth in love.” So, we need both ends of that pendulum. The true loving thing is to speak truth because truth is reality. It’s like spiritual laws that you can’t change, but we need to do it in a loving way where we’re building relationships with people and we love them enough to tell them the truth.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:I mean, we, those of us who have kids, we don’t see our kids heading for danger and not warn them. We don’t see kids going to grab a hot stove and not tell them that it’s hot. We want to see them in safety. We want to see them in the ark. And that’s what God invites everyone to do, is to come into that ark of safety, which is who?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah. Jesus Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Jesus Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Exactly. Yeah, if we see our child put a fork into an outlet there, we don’t go, “You know, he’ll learn.” We don’t want him to really learn that way, you know?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Right, exactly.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:We want to help him and save him. And my eyes just went over here to 1st Peter chapter 4. And this is incredible. This tells us how to live in the end times and how to relate to people. He says, “Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,” he’s talking just about purifying ourselves, “So as to live the rest of the time in the flesh, in our bodies, no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. For the time has already passed that is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lust, drunkenness, carousals, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.” He said, “Guys, your time to do that is gone. I mean, you’ve already spent that time in your life.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:But he says, “And in all this,” he says, “They… ” Who is they? Well, those are those people that are still involved in these things, those people that are still in the days of Noah in our day. He says, “In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them in the same excess of dissipation or of sin and of just worthless living, and they malign you.” They criticize you for not doing the things that they’re doing in their lives. But then he concludes by just saying, “But keep this in mind, they shall give an account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” And so, what that tells me is that…
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:People talk about, “You’re judging them,” kind of. No, no, we’re not judging. We’re not the judge. We’re just simply proclaiming the truth, as you said; they’re the ones who will give an account. So, our job is to help them find the ark so that they don’t have to give an account to God for their sin. So, really, the greatest loving thing to do is, as Jesus said, in John chapter 15, he says, “If I hadn’t come, they wouldn’t have sin.” In other words, “If I hadn’t come and declared what right and wrong was, they wouldn’t even not even know.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:They wouldn’t even know, yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah. and they wouldn’t even care. But now, they have no excuse for that. And so, as we think about living in the days of Noah, which I do believe that we’re mirroring the days of Noah, that we are ramping up to revelation in this regards.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:And one final thing that he mentions there, or that we observe rather from Genesis chapter 6, is we go from Adam all the way to Noah. As you trace that, what you find is is that evil and wickedness and lack of faith and lack of belief in God grows, and a purity of following God narrows to the point where it’s down to really one family on the whole earth. And I think that’s what Paul says in 2nd Timothy, where he says, “In the last days,” 2nd Timothy 3, “That many will fall away from the faith.” And I think we’re seeing that too, not just on a cultural standpoint but also in the church as well. And we see that in the days of Noah. So, I think God would have the church be purified. I think our own individual lives, he wants us to really have our garments on, our wedding garments on to purify ourselves, to prepare for his return.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:So, I think, Todd, as we look at the days of Noah, we kind of look back because Jesus pointed this back in Matthew 24. We look back. And then we look ahead at the prophetic Book of Revelation. We see how depraved humanity’s going to be during that time. And it’s going to be full, Revelation says, of immoralities, of sorceries, of all these things.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Drug use, whole nine yards.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Absolutely. And then we look around at our world and go, “Wow, we’re getting there.” And we haven’t always been there. We’ve always been a sinful planet.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:There have been pockets.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Yeah, there have been pockets and there have been times, but-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Now, it’s like-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:… in recent days, it’s like 50 years ago, your grandparents, my grandparents’ generation-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:They wouldn’t believe what we’re seeing right now.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:No concept of what we’re seeing now. But now, we’re seeing just gross perversions being celebrated and sin being promoted in our culture. And we’re really living in those latter days of Noah again.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah. And I think where we find hope in that, because again we’re speaking the truth and love. The truth is these are dark times. These are scary times. But the love part is, and where we can draw hope is, knowing that it’s God’s hand is still on the steering wheel. He’s in control. This is heading somewhere.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:And that’s why you and I beat this drum beat so hard, that you got to study Bible prophecy because that’s where you find the hope. That’s where you find the answers. That’s where you find the clarity to understand how we’re supposed to be like the men of the Issachar that you talked about in the last episode. All the answers are tied to Bible prophecy and a respect for God’s word.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:It’s so true because even secular people are seeing what’s going on in the world around us. And even if they don’t buy into biblical morality, they’re still seeing the planet deteriorating, they’re still seeing nations come against nation, they’re still seeing our world on the edge of World War III, all these things, but they have no answer.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Nope. And they want to blame people for it. They want to blame anybody else. They want to find some excuse that it’s somebody’s fault. And that’s why we’re seeing the division and the further violence and confusion and all that, when the answers are found in scripture.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:It’s so true. The only answers they have is just to imagine utopia one day. Imagine peace. Imagine a world of peace. Well, you can imagine all day long-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Yeah, not going to happen.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:Someone needs to make that happen. And it’s very interesting. When my book, As It Was in the Days of Noah, came out, I had the privilege to be on the Ben Shapiro Show and talk with Ben Shapiro about the days of Noah. He was in complete agreement, as an Orthodox Jew, as to what’s going on around us. And, of course, I brought in the answer being Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:I had the chance to be on Fox and Friends and was talking to them about the book and about the movie, Noah, and how it didn’t match up with the Bible kind of thing. But the last question that was asked me on that interview, Todd, was very interesting. Elisabeth Hasselbeck said that. She said, “Jeff, what should we do? Should we be building boats, ready for the second judgment of God? I mean, is there any hope?” And I thought, “Whoa.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:She set you up.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff:“She just asked me to share the gospel with millions of people.” And this is what I said. I just said, “You know what, Elisabeth? There is nothing but hope for those who put their trust in Jesus Christ. He is the ark of salvation. And the door is open right now. And we’re living in an age of grace. And God has opened that door so wide and he’s shouting to the world, ‘Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden and you will have rest and have salvation. Whoever believes in the name of the Lord, doesn’t matter where you’ve come from, what your past is, you can be saved. You can be on that ark and be saved from the wrath that is coming.'”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Amen. Wow. I could not think of a better way to end this podcast, man. So, we’re going to drop the mic right there. That was beautifully put. That’s where the hope is, in the ark, in Jesus Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:If you have questions that you want to ask us about regarding this or any other topic, please go to prophecyprospodcast.com. Leave us a question. And you can also find out information about Jeff’s ministry and mine. And we would love to hear from you.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd:Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe if you have not done so already. And if you liked what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review. That does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot. For more resources or to ask questions or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
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|
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||||
![[BONUS: Todd Interviews Jeff about God’s Grand Finale.mp3]]
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---
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||||
![[S10E10: How to Interpret Bible Prophecy.mp3]]
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---
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![[S10E11: Q&A: More Questions Answered.mp3]]
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---
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![[S10E12: AI and the End Times.mp3]]
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|
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---
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|
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||||
![[S10E1: How Bad Will It Get Before the Rapture?.mp3]]
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|
||||
---
|
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|
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|
||||
![[S10E2: Contending for the Faith in the Last Days.mp3]]
|
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|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S10E3: The Phenomenon of Prophetic Hunger in the Last Days.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S10E4: Discovering God in Revelation.mp3]]
|
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|
||||
---
|
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||||
![[S10E5: Q&A: You Asked, We Answered.mp3]]
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|
||||
---
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||||
![[S10E6: Five Ways to Introduce Bible Prophecy in Your Church.mp3]]
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|
||||
---
|
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@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
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![[S10E7: Five Compelling Reasons Pastors Should Teach Prophecy.mp3]]
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|
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---
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@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
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||||
![[S10E8: The Revived Roman Empire with Guest Steve Miller.mp3]]
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|
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---
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|
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@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S10E9: Spiritual Warfare in the Last Days.mp3]]
|
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|
||||
---
|
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|
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@ -1,5 +0,0 @@
|
||||
|
||||
![[BONUS: All Eyes on Israel.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,5 +0,0 @@
|
||||
|
||||
![[BONUS: The Non-Prophet’s Guide to the Book of Daniel.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
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|
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@ -1,5 +0,0 @@
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||||
|
||||
![[S11E1: Why Should We Care about Daniel?.mp3]]
|
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|
||||
---
|
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@ -1,5 +0,0 @@
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|
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![[S11E2: Q&A – Answers to Your Questions.mp3]]
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|
||||
---
|
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@ -1,5 +0,0 @@
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|
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![[S11E3: Why Is Antisemitism Being Normalized? With Guest Olivier Melnick.mp3]]
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---
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@ -1,5 +0,0 @@
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|
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![[S11E4: How Close Are We?.mp3]]
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---
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@ -1,5 +0,0 @@
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|
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![[S11E5: Your Bright Future in Christ: The Hope of Every Believer in the Last Days.mp3]]
|
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|
||||
---
|
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@ -1,5 +0,0 @@
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||||
|
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![[S11E6: What Did the Early Church Believe about the Rapture?.mp3]]
|
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|
||||
---
|
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|
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@ -1,219 +0,0 @@
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|
||||
![[S2E10: Ron Rhodes: A Conversation with a Real Prophecy Pro.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Today, you’re going to be so glad you tuned in. We are interviewing an absolute bona fide Prophecy Pro. You do not want to miss today’s episode.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I’m Jeff Kinley, welcome to the Prophecy Pros Podcast. We are excited today, for our very special guest, Dr. Ron Rhodes. You know, we’re the Prophecy Pros, but this guy is a real Prophecy Pro. I mean, he was a professional at prophecy long before we were, and we’re so excited to have Dr. Ron Rhodes with us here today. He’s the president of Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries, he’s the author of over 60 books, and is a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary. As I am, our alma mater. Go DTS. He also teaches there on occasion, as well as several other known seminaries, and has had various seasons of prominent ministry since 1988. I mean, this guy’s been around. He’s there, he’s a pro.
|
||||
|
||||
So, Dr. Ron Rhodes, welcome to the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Well, thank you so much. It’s an honor to talk to you guys.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, well we’re very excited to have you on. We’ve had the privilege of co-teaching at various prophecy conferences over the years, and seen you around, but never really got a chance to hang out with you. But, I know that your love of Bible prophecy goes way back. In fact, I heard that Bible prophecy actually played a role in your conversion to Christ. Is that true?
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Well, that is true. You know what’s interesting is that I grew up in a showbiz family, and we were on the Hollywood scene quite a bit. We used to do a lot of the big TV shows. Did The Tonight Show, and The Merv Griffin Show, and The Mike Douglas Show, and Jerry Lewis Telethon, and American Bandstand with Dick Clark, just all kind of shows. And, we had been attending a liberal church, so I didn’t know anything about prophecy at all. As far as I knew, going to church made you a Christian. But, they also taught weird things about prophecy. For example, they said that the Second Coming refers to whenever a person find God in their heart, so that can happen many times in a person’s life.
|
||||
|
||||
Well, as it happened we were working with Pat Boone and his family, and they were very much into Bible prophecy, having read Hal Lindsay’s book The Late, Great Planet Earth. That’s the first I’d ever heard of that. I had never heard of the Rapture, of the tribulation, or the Anti-Christ, or anything. The long story short is that that made a big impact on me, I became a Christian. I dumbed Hollywood and went to Dallas Theological Seminary, and I haven’t looked back. My wife, Carrie, likes to tell people that she thought she was marrying a rock star, and she got a seminary student. It’s funny the way things work out.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s incredible.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: God definitely has a sense of humor, who He calls into ministry.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, it’s like Abraham Lincoln said, “God must love ordinary people, He made so many of them.”
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: That’s right, that’s exactly right. I know if God can use me, He can use anybody.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen. Amen to that. We believe that as well.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. Yeah I was going to say, we definitely feel the same, and we’re blown away at how God opens ministry doors when you’re willing to follow them. It’s pretty exciting.
|
||||
|
||||
You know, speaking of that, this year in particular, 2020, obviously with COVID-19 and civil unrest, and all kinds of stuff, all of these global problems, Jeff and I have seen a grassroots questioning from a lot of people who have never studied Bible prophecy before. Do you think, Ron, that there’s a resurgence, or a new interest in Bible prophecy today?
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Well, I think that there is. You know, I look back to maybe the ’70s and the early part of the ’80s, there was a lot of interest. You might remember, after Hal Lindsey wrote his book, a whole lot of people started writing prophecy books. That’s when I started to read books by the Dallas Seminary faculty. People like John Walvoord, and Dwight Pentecost, some of my heroes. You know, it seems like prophecy waned after that. I think a lot of people got impatient with the Rapture not happening soon enough. People started to think that because there’s so many different opinions out there, maybe you really shouldn’t spend too much time on prophecy. I think that prophetic agnosticism swept the country, at that time.
|
||||
|
||||
But in recent days, I think it’s really picked up. I think that COVID-19 has caused a lot of people to come face-to-face with their own mortality. Suddenly, people have become interested in whether all this relates to prophecy. I was talking to Bob Hawkins, a friend of yours and mine, and he’s the president of Harvest House, and he told me that, based upon what he has seen, it seems like a lot of people have turned to prophecy, in terms of prophecy books in these days. So, I think that there is a renewed interest.
|
||||
|
||||
There was a poll taken not terribly long ago, which indicated that 44% of people believe that the Coronavirus is a wake up call to turn back to God, and may be a sign of coming Judgment.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Wow.
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: And then, 29% said that Coronavirus indicates that we’re living in the End Times.
|
||||
|
||||
Now, I’m glad to see that. I wish that people had been interested in prophecy all along. I think that that’s important, because over 25% of the Bible was prophetic when written.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: And you simply can’t ignore 25% of the Bible. I’m coming from the position of knowing what it’s like to not have prophecy, because I went to church for about 16 years without hearing a single thing about prophecy. That’s that liberal church that I had attended. And I’m afraid a lot of churches are like that out there, and so I’m glad that God has been able to get people’s attention such that they are turning to prophecy. And even beyond that, they’re turning to the Bible, a lot of people are turning to the Bible for the first time.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, that’s very true. We’re hearing that as well. It’s interesting you should mentioned both things, the grassroots movement, and also the churches, whereas the churches, on the whole, are ignoring prophecy, and a lot of pastors are either afraid or unequipped to address the topic. At the same time, ordinary Christians are just screaming for answers.
|
||||
|
||||
I’m sure you get it, too, Ron. We get emails every single week, sometimes every day, people just wanting answers and they’re not getting them in their churches. What do you think is causing that?
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Well, that’s a good point. Let me just say, as a part of that point, that I was contacted by a church in a rather liberal denomination, and they contacted me and said, “You know what? Our denomination doesn’t talk about this at all. Our denomination does not produce materials, teaching materials, that cover this stuff. Therefore, would you come in and spend a week with us, and help us to understand what’s really going on?” And so as a result of that, I went in and I taught them, and for the first time, they got to hear what the Bible has to say about prophecy. So, I was very pleased about that.
|
||||
|
||||
You know, in terms of prophecy today, and the lack of interest in prophecy, I think it goes along with the overall lack of interest in the Bible itself. You know, the Bible has been issued out the backdoor, and experience has been invited in the front door. It seems like, today, people are basing their religious views all on experience. If it feels good, it must be right. Bible doctrine is no longer en vogue, it’s no longer popular today. People don’t want to hear about doctrine, people want to hear about experience. So, I think that’s a dangerous trend.
|
||||
|
||||
In fact, about 15 years ago, there was a president of a seminary who asked me what I saw coming down the pike in the next 10, 15 years. I told him that I thought that mysticism would probably be the big thing, and it would be all about experience. Indeed, that’s exactly what’s happened. What’s really sad is that even among those churches that use the Bible today, very often their sermons are either maybe 15 minutes long and that’s it, or they might just cite a verse and then use that as a launchpad to talk about some topic like how to raise your children, or how to have a successful financial year.
|
||||
|
||||
I’m not saying those things are unimportant, I think the church should address those issues, but not to the exclusion of Biblical doctrine. Who was Jesus Christ? What was his purpose? What is the Gospel? What does prophecy teach? All of those things are absolutely critical.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, those are the foundations, the moorings of our faith, the cornerstone of our faith, being Christ Himself. When we launch off into the stratosphere with just feel good sermons, self-help … As one pastor said that, “A lot of churches today are a light show and a concert, followed by a TED Talk.” That’s what we’re seeing a lot of today.
|
||||
|
||||
And yet, you see these churches that, those that are preaching the word, that are grounding people in the scripture, those are the believers that are going out in the world, and they’re not just surviving, they’re thriving because they’ve been equipped with the word of God according the Ephesians Four, and they’re able to not be tossed back and forth with every winded doctrine.
|
||||
|
||||
And speaking of that, when this whole Corona thing exploded, Ron, a lot of people were wondering how this particularly related. I mean, we know that obviously we have lessons we can learn from it. Do you see the Coronavirus something, because it’s hung on? It’s not something that’s been like the Ebola blip on the radar, this thing is hanging on. How is this contributing, if at all, towards a movement towards globalism today? Do you think it has any relationship to that?
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Well, I think it’s one contributing factor. It’s not the only thing, but there’s a number of things, I think, that are contributing towards the movement towards globalism today.
|
||||
|
||||
The fact is, is that hundreds of nations have been infected by Coronavirus. Countless people within those nations have been infected. And just as the US economy has been greatly wounded by the Coronavirus, so the economies of hundreds of nations around the world have been injured. Now, you guys know enough about economics to know that what happens with one economy in one nation affects what happens in another nation. We have a globally connected economy, and that means that if our stock market goes down, the likelihood is that the stock market in other countries will also go down. And so, everything is interconnected today.
|
||||
|
||||
Now, there have been many people who believe that we need a global solution for a global problem, and this global solution must come from a global leader who can chart a clear course for the future. The idea is that maybe the nation state system is no longer working, maybe individual nation states and their individual solutions are not really addressing the global problems that we face today. And so to me, this may be one contributing factor that is setting the stage for the eventual global rise of the Anti-Christ. Guys, you’ve also heard about track and trace technology. This track and trace technology is used to analyze potential hot zones of the Coronavirus. Well, I think that this kind of technology and other similar technologies can be part and partial of the movement towards globalism. To me, this kind of technology means a loss of privacy. You can potentially be tracked wherever you go. Now, that kind of technology is a dream technology for any leader who wants to control the world. So again, I think that’s setting the stage for the future.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, absolutely. We’re seeing so many things like that, that do affect things globally. And, it’s funny, all this relates together. The fact that people aren’t learning Biblically why there’s nations, why globalism apart from God is a bad thing, and how all that’s going to culminate in the future tribulation period. The Anti-Chris will arise on the scene, and take hold of all that technology and those systems.
|
||||
|
||||
And along with that … It’s funny. Every one of these questions could probably be an entire podcast episode.
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Yes.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: We appreciate you handling all that we’re throwing at you. But, these are the questions that we wonder about and we study. And also, these are the questions that a lot of our listeners have as well.
|
||||
|
||||
One of those, related to global events, is this whole thing with the Abraham Accords. You know, there’s been different takes on that. We’re just curious, what’s your take on the Abraham Accords and how it relates to end time prophecy?
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Well, to begin with there’s been a lot of people who have contacted me and asked me if the Abraham Accords … Which, if you’re out of the loop on all this, it’s the peace agreement in the Middle East between Israel and some Arab nations. So, a lot of people have contacted me saying, “Is this the covenant that’s prophesied in Daniel 9:27?” And, it’s my personal feeling that no, it is not.
|
||||
|
||||
I say that because we know that this Daniel 9:27 covenant will be that the Roman Anti-Christ sides with Israel. We know he will be a Roman, because he will be of the people that destroyed Jerusalem and it’s temple. That’s what Daniel 9:26 says about the Anti-Christ. He is from the people that destroyed the temple and Jerusalem. This is going to be a Roman, the head of a revived Roman Empire, or the United States of Europe, will sign this ultimate covenant.
|
||||
|
||||
You know, against this idea that this is the covenant of Daniel 9:27 is the temple sacrifices. You see, in Daniel we are told that when this covenant is signed, temple sacrifices begin in the Jewish temple right after the signing. And then, these temple sacrifices will be disallowed in the second half of the tribulation period. Well, you know the temple’s not even built yet, guys. Preparations are now being made for the building of the temple, money is being raised for the building of the temple, architectural plans have been called for by the Sanhedrin. But, it’s not built yet and it doesn’t even have to be built until that future, first part of the tribulation period.
|
||||
|
||||
All of that simply indicates to me that this is not the same as the covenant that is mentioned in Daniel 9:27. The Abraham Accords might be setting the stage for that, but it’s not the same covenant.
|
||||
|
||||
You know, what I wonder about, guys, is why would a covenant from the Anti-Christ be necessary, in view of the Abraham Accords? Have you thought about that? Well, I’ve thought about it. I think there’s a number of possibilities, and I know that we’ve got time limits so I’ll just give you the quick summary.
|
||||
|
||||
It could be that the Arabs and Israel backslide into new hostilities. But, what about the after effects of the Rapture? You know, with the Rapture, all Israel supporting Christians will be removed from the Earth, including Israel supporting Christians who are politicians. Maybe the Arabs get a little bit hungry for the attack, at that point. Or, it could be that the hard line nations over in the Arab areas will not sign the covenant. I’m talking about nations like Iran, the nations that are part of the Ezekiel Invasion, maybe they won’t sign this covenant. Or, it could be they sign this covenant and then double cross Israel. You know, there’s all kinds of possibilities there.But, for whatever reason, there will be a future covenant signed by the Anti-Christ with Israel.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: The fact that we’re seeing a push for that now, or a desire for that now, like you said, Ron, I think just shows it’s a foreshadowing. It’s showing us that those conditions worldwide are also in place.
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Well, I think it’s also … It may relate to the Ezekiel Invasion itself.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Because one of the things that we know from Ezekiel is that this invasion into Israel by Russia and some Muslim nations cannot happen unless Israel is dwelling in peace and security. We see that in Ezekiel 38.
|
||||
|
||||
So, is it possible that the Abraham Accords will make Israel feels at peace, and living securely?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It seems like it.
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: It might be meeting that precondition.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Also, Satan is always wanting to jumpstart the tribulation, because he knows that’s his time to shine. I mean, that’s his time to bring his man on the scene, and so throughout history he’s tried to get this thing going in several different ways. Obviously, the biggest being during World War II, with Hitler.
|
||||
|
||||
But, Satan doesn’t know God’s timetable, and I think he arrogantly believes that he can somehow get this thing going without God’s permission. And yet, God says, “No, no, it’s got to happen after I take my bride home.”
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Well, that’s right. One thing we do know for certain is that Israel will be a sore spot in the world, in the End Times. I mean, that’s an absolute. But, I do find it interesting to see what’s going on today, even when you just look at the Ezekiel prophecies.
|
||||
|
||||
Ezekiel first prophesied that Israel would become a nation again. That happened in 1948. And then, Ezekiel prophesied that Jewish people from every nation in the world, the Jewish people would stream back to the Holy Land. That’s been happening every year, since 1948. And then, Ezekiel prophesied that there would be a coalition that arises between Russia, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Turkey, and all the nations around the Black and Caspian Seas. You know, that’s all the Stan nations, like Turkmenistan, and Afghanistan. All of those would join together, and one day attack Israel, but this can’t happen until Israel’s dwelling in peace and security.
|
||||
|
||||
So it just seems to me that what we’re seeing in our world today is exactly what Ezekiel outlined, either prophecies have been fulfilled, or the stage is being set for a future fulfillment.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen. Well, the word of God always comes true, every jot and tittle be fulfilled according to Jesus, His words will never pass away. So, we know all these future prophecies will be fulfilled, literally, in exactly the way that they’re predicted, because all the previous ones were done the same way. Jesus was the one who spoke about those, and He spoke about all those. In Matthew 24, we see this huge discourse, the Olivet discourse about the End Times.
|
||||
|
||||
And that leads me to the next question, Ron, is that one of your latest books is called Jesus and the End Times, and the subtitle is What He Said, and What the Future Holds. Now, when you’ve written 60 books, and many of them on Bible prophecy, at some point … I’ve only written, I think 35 or 36 books, but at some point you just go, “What’s my next book going to be about?” How did you come to this whole point of I want to focus in on Christ and the End Times. What brought you to that intersection?
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Well, that’s kind of funny. I read a magazine that said, “Somebody has locked Ron Rhodes in a close with a typewriter.” But, that’s not true, I just love to write. The truth is that I think about nine out of 10 people are more interested in what Jesus says than any prophet or apostle. And as you guys know, Jesus had three primary roles in the New Testament, Prophet, Priest, and King. And in his role as a prophet, he gave three major sermons, and two of those contain prophecies of the future. One is the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24 and 25. And then, in the Upper Room discourse, Jesus talked about the Rapture in John 14, verses one to three. So, I find that extremely significant, and I believe that people want to know about what Jesus says about the End Times.
|
||||
|
||||
One of the reasons that I wrote the book is my growing conviction that Jesus is the heart and center of Bible prophecy, and that He is the true source of Bible prophecy. Let me just tell you what I mean by that.
|
||||
|
||||
First of all, I believe that it was Jesus who spoke through the Old Testament prophets. First Peter 1:11 says of the prophets that “the Spirit of Christ within them set forth prophecies of the future.” Now guys, you know that there’s some debate on this verse, whether that’s talking about the Spirit of Christ, or the Holy Spirit. You know, from the original Greek, it could be translated to Spirit of Christ, or the Spirit from Christ. You know, it’s the same in the original Greek. In agreement with the early church fathers, I believe that this is talking literally about Christ, and so that means that Christ was speaking through the Old Testament prophets.
|
||||
|
||||
Furthermore, the revelations that John gave in the Book of Revelation came from Jesus. In Revelation 1:1 we read, “This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that will soon take place. And then, Jesus’ angle communicated this to John.” So, all the prophecies in the Book of Revelation came from Jesus. Likewise, the prophecies from the apostle Paul. Keep in mind that, in Acts 9:15 Jesus said of Paul, “Paul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel.” So, all the prophecies that Paul gave were part of Christ’s message. And so, that’s why I believe that Christ is the ultimate source of Bible prophecy. That’s why I wanted to write this book, I don’t think a lot of people think about that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: No, that’s really compelling. Even as a Bible prophecy teacher and student myself, I’ve studied the Olivet discourse several times and it is complex. It’s like fitting a puzzle piece together, when you read Olivet discourse, the Old Testament prophets that you mentioned, Paul’s writings, and of course the Book of Revelation, and see how it all fits together. With Jesus’ Olivet discourse right there, that’s the key thing.
|
||||
|
||||
I’ve even been talking to Jeff lately, I’m taking a fresh look at that now. So I have not had a chance to read this book of yours, Jesus and the End Times, but I am ordering it today because it’s perfectly timely for me.
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Just contact the publisher, and have them send you a review copy.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, there you go.
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: Get it for free.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s it, when you can.
|
||||
|
||||
Ron: One of the things that strikes me is how, if you compare the teachings of Jesus with those in Revelation, they’re so parallel. Jesus and the Olivet discourse warned the rise of false Christs, just as Revelation warned of the rise of the Anti-Christ. Jesus and the Olivet discourse talked about the rise of false prophets, Revelation talks about the false prophet. Jesus and the Olivet discourse warned of wars and rumors of wars, Revelation talks about peace taken from the Earth. Jesus warned about famine, just as Revelation warns about famine. I mean, I could just go on and on, but there’s one parallel after the other. And it makes good sense that they agree with each other, because all of it came from Jesus.
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Todd: Yeah, that’s a great, fantastic … I love how you tied that together, I had never thought about that before, specifically how Jesus is the author of all of those. That makes a lot of sense. Now, what does Jesus indicate about the course of the present age with his prophetic parables, related to and following the Olivet discourse? Do you cover that in that book as well?
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|
||||
Ron: Well, yes I do. You know, the course of the present age, I believe, takes place primarily in the parables of Jesus Christ. Now, I love the parables, the parables are so loaded with prophetic truth. I say this because so many people skip over the parables. And you shouldn’t do it, there’s so much good stuff there.
|
||||
|
||||
A parable is basically a teaching tool, and Jesus often told the story from the real world to illustrate a prophetic truth, or some other kind of truth. So just to give you an idea of what I’m talking about, the Parable of the Sower teaches that our current age will be characterized by the sowing of the Gospel onto different kinds of soil. You know, some of the soil is good, and those people will become Christians. Other soil is bad, it’s characterized by the world, the flesh, and the Devil. Those people, they’re not going to bear any fruit, they’re not going to really come to know the Lord.
|
||||
|
||||
The Parable of the Terrors indicates that the true sowing of the Gospel seed will be imitated by a false counter-sowing. Satan is busy at work, sowing his seeds out there as well. The Parable of the Mustard Seed indicates that God’s spiritual Kingdom would begin very small, but it would grow to become very, very big. When you look at, back in New Testament times, that Kingdom was small, but, look at how Christianity now engulfs the entire Earth. The Parable of the Net indicates that, up until the Second Coming when judgment takes place, there will be genuine Christians and phony Christians that co-exist in the Kingdom. But, at the end of the age, there will be a separation of the righteous from the unrighteous.
|
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|
||||
In the Parable of the Fig Tree, one of my favorites, Jesus indicates that God has revealed certain things through prophecy that ought to cause people who know prophecy to understand that a fulfillment of prophecy is taking place. Or, perhaps in our present day, that the stage is being set for an eventual fulfillment of prophecy. So Jesus is informing his followers to be accurate observers of the times, so that when Biblical prophecies are fulfilled, they’ll recognize it. Guys, that’s one of the reasons why we ought to study prophecy. We cannot possibly recognize the signs of the times, unless we first know what those signs are.
|
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Todd: Yes, so well put. I think a lot of times people think when you say, “Oh, I’m studying Bible prophecy,” they immediately think of sensationalism, or that you’re setting a date for the Rapture. I love what you’re pointing out is that no, it’s much broader than that, and it’s much more integrated to the entirety of scripture than that. Earlier, you used a phrase that I’m totally going to steal, prophetic agnosticism. I love that.
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Ron: Well, you know it’s sad because, I’ll let you know, a lot of people do think that because there’s so many different views, we can’t trust prophecy.
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Todd: Yeah.
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Ron: But, the thing that makes sense to me is simply this, and this has been my guiding light, my guiding principle. When the plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense lest you end up in nonsense.
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Todd: I love it.
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|
||||
Ron: That’s what it comes down to. When the plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense lest you end up in nonsense. It’s like you guys pointed out earlier, if you want to know how God is going to fulfill prophecy in the future, take a look how He’s fulfilled prophecy in the past.
|
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Todd: Amen.
|
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|
||||
Ron: Because all those past prophecies were fulfilled, literally. It was prophesied of Jesus to “be born of a virgin,” Isaiah 7:14. “In Bethlehem,” Micah 5:2. “Pierced for our sins,” Zachariah 12:10. I mean, I could go on and on, there’s over 100 prophecies literally fulfilled. And, all the Second Coming prophecies will be just as literally fulfilled.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Amen. And speaking of that, and another phrased that you used and I’m really interested to hear about this one, you say that there’s a “grand reversal is coming.” Can you talk about that a little bit?
|
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|
||||
Ron: Well, I teach this everywhere because there’s a lot of people that are discouraged today. Whether it’s from the Coronavirus, or some of the unrest that exists in the world today, so I like to talk about a grand reversal.
|
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|
||||
What I mean is simply this. In Genesis, we witnessed God creating the heavens and the Earth. But in Revelation, God creates the new heavens and the new Earth. In Genesis, the sun and the moon were created as great lights, but in Revelation, in the Eternal City there is no longer any need for such light, because God’s glory lights up the Eternal City. In Genesis, God created the night, but in the Book of Revelation, in the Eternal State there is no longer any night. In Genesis, human beings succumbed to the temptations of Satan, but in Revelation, in the Eternal State, Satan is eternally quarantined away from the people of God. In Genesis, the first man and woman sinned against God, in Revelation redeemed humans are free from sin forever, and live in a perfectly holy environment.
|
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|
||||
In Genesis, as a result of sin, a curse was pronounced by God. But in Revelation, in the Eternal State, there is no more curse. In Genesis, paradise was lost, but in Revelation, in the Eternal State, paradise is gloriously restored. In Genesis, the first man and woman were barred from the Tree of Life, but in Revelation, in the Eternal City redeemed humans are restored to the Tree of Life. And then finally, in Genesis, tears, death, and mourning came into human existence. But in Revelation, in the Eternal State, tears, death, and mourning are forever absent from the redeemed.
|
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|
||||
So my friends, there’s a grand reversal coming. And if that does not put wind in your sails, then we need to get those shockers that the hospital uses and put them on your chest and bring you back to life.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Amen.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: That’s like we say here in Arkansas, if that doesn’t fire you up your wood is wet. You know, that you just quoted that verse from Revelation 21:4 about no longer any tears, or mourning, or crying, or pain. The very next verse says, “He who sits on the throne says behold, I am making all things new.” And that is exactly who our God is. I know one of the things that Bible prophecy does, Ron, is instill us with great hope. It’s not a feeling, it’s not a wish, it’s a real confident expectation. Can you just speak just a moment, as we close out just how does prophecy give us that kind of hope?
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|
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Ron: Well, it gives us a very powerful hope. I think, first of all, prophecy is the motivation to live expectantly. What is it that we’re expecting? Well, we live expectantly because the Rapture is imminent, it could take place at any moment. Paul said, “Time is running out. Our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed,” because the Rapture is imminent.
|
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|
||||
Secondly, we live expectantly because we will be with Christ following the moment of death. Even if we don’t take part in the Rapture, if we die before the Rapture, not a problem, we go straight to Heaven. And we are fully confident that, when we are away from this body, we are at home with the Lord, so we can live expectantly of that. We can also live expectantly because we’re going to get a body upgrade. It’s a resurrection body, and it’s a body that will never again get sick, no more heart problems, no more kidney failure, no more hairs falling out of your head. One of the best things is that in your resurrection body, you can still eat. Jesus ate food four times after he resurrected from the dead, and scripture indicates that our resurrection bodies will be much like his.
|
||||
|
||||
And then finally, guys, prophecy’s a motivation for us to live right. If you’re really expecting the Lord to show up at any moment at the Rapture, that’s going to motivate us to want to live for Him. I have found that to be very true in my own life.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Amen, amen. Wow, well put. That’s good to hear, and looking forward to that new body. And, thankful that we’ll be able to eat and it’s not going to be just a boring time of hanging out on clouds, playing harps.
|
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|
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Ron: Amen. That would be more like Hell, to me.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yes, exactly. Well Ron, before we wrap it up, first of all we just thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to join us, and let us pick your brain. We literally could do this for hours but we’ve got to wrap it up. But before we go, please share with our listeners where they can learn more about you and your ministry.
|
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|
||||
Ron: Well, you can just go over to ronrhodes.org, R-O-N-R-H-O-D-E-S.org. You can download lots of free articles, you can sign up for a free newsletter. I don’t ask for a red cent from anybody on keeping all this going. So if you want a lot of free stuff, my website’s the place to go. Of course, I can’t give out free books. I wish I could. But nevertheless, a lot of the books are listed there, and they’re there if you want them. But everything else is free, and so we exist to serve the Body of Christ. If we can help you, stop by, let us know. There’s a place where you can contact me, and send me an email. As hard as it sometimes, I do make an effort to eventually get back with everyone.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yeah, that can be a challenge sometimes.
|
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|
||||
Ron: It can be, especially after you do some national radio show and you get a billion emails.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
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|
||||
Ron: It might take a month or two to get to all those, but eventually.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Again, we cannot thank you enough, we just really appreciate it. We know that many people were blessed by today, and also to learn about your ministry. I pray that a lot of people will go there to get those resources. We really appreciate you joining us today.
|
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|
||||
Ron: Well, thank you so much. You guys keep up your excellent work with this podcast, and your excellent books.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Thank you so much, appreciate that.
|
||||
|
||||
Hey, well thanks for listening to today’s episode. To find out more information, visit prophecyprospodcast.com. There, you can find out more about Jeff’s ministry, my ministry, the books we write, and you can also ask us any questions you want and we’ll be glad to respond. Also, please share this with as many people as you can, we want to get the word out about this podcast as widely as we can because it’s really impacting lives. Thanks again for tuning in, and visit prophecyprospodcast.com.
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![[S2E11: Where is America in Bible Prophecy?.mp3]]
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Todd: Hey, Todd here, and you’re listening to the Prophecy Pros Podcast on the Edify Podcast Network. Our guest today, Olivier Melnick is the Northwest Regional Director of Chosen People Ministries’, and he serves on the board of directors for Chosen People, France. He’s an author and a speaker and a personal friend of ours. He’s an expert on the topic of anti-Semitism and Bible prophecy and how they intersect. Olivier, welcome to the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
|
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|
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Olivier Melnick: Thank you, Todd and Jeff. I’m very happy to join you today.
|
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|
||||
Todd: We really appreciate your time, brother. We’ve been looking forward to this. And most of our listeners probably have never heard of you before. So if you could, won’t you tell a little bit about you and your ministry and your background and that kind of thing.
|
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|
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Olivier Melnick: Okay. I was born and raised in Paris, France, in a Jewish family. My parents are both gone now. We’re war and Holocaust survivors. My mother actually was hidden in the South of France on a farm as a Catholic girl during the last two years of the war. And so I was brought up in a Jewish family, but not really religious because as many Jews during the war, my parents lost any shred of faith in any kind of God after the Holocaust. So I was brought up Jewish, but not religious. I moved to the United States after I got married to my American wife who led me to the Lord in 1985, by scaring me about the rapture and telling me that we would be separated if she was taken, and I thought this was crazy, but I believed.
|
||||
|
||||
In 1983, she led me to the Lord in the summer of 1983, came back to the States and started getting involved in church, Bible studies, joined different ministries as a lay person, and eventually in 1998, we joined Chosen People Ministries’, and we’ve been with them for almost 23 years now. I currently, like you said, serve in the Northwest and do a lot of travel, a lot of speaking on the topic of anti-Semitism. Started doing that in about 2000 and I’ve written several book on the topic and many articles. This is not a topic that I’ve chosen, this is a topic that God has kind of put on my lap and it gets very draining, very difficult to deal with this on a daily basis, but not that many people that are Jewish, who are believers in Yeshua, Jesus do do this. So I keep doing it until God tells me that I’m going to have to do something else.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen. Well, Olivier, I first met you at a prophecy conference about a year ago. I think our tables were beside one another, and you gave me a copy of your book End-Times Antisemitism, a new chapter in the longest hatred. I brought that book home, I set it in my stack of books to read, and then I started writing one of my books. And one of my chapters deals with anti-Semitism. But I just want to tell you that, I read your book from cover to cover and you did such an incredible job of categorizing all of the anti-Semitism really all the way from biblical times up until now. And brother, you just did a fantastic job. I highly recommended this book. I quote from you several times in my new book, because you highlight the fact that there is a sub current of anti-Semitism that has really run throughout history. Would you just speak on that for a second, and then tell us about how you see it on the rise right now in America with perhaps even some recent examples.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier Melnick: Well, in the book, which is my second book on the topic, I felt it necessary to go through history and give Christians, a history of anti-Semitism. When you look at the history of the Jewish people, and I just started to teach a Bible study online on that topic two weeks ago. When you look at the history of Jewish people, it’s easy to say that the history of Jewish people has been punctuated by acts of anti-Semitism. And you look at how we look at Jewish people, and it actually is not uncommon to speak of Jewish history as pre-Holocaust and post-Holocaust. And so I wanted to document in that book, the progression of anti-Semitism, which really started as anti theological anti Judaism between the Christians and the Jews in the first couple of centuries after the closing of the Canon, the first, second century.
|
||||
|
||||
And then it evolved and evolved to the apex being the Holocaust. Then it morphed. I’m giving you a quick summary here. It morphed within 20 years, two decades after the Holocaust would become taboo, but then it was swept under the carpet. The early stages of political correctness, so to speak. And then it came up again. It never really died, it came out again, and it was rebranded and reborn as the new anti-Semitism where the victims became the perpetrators, and the perpetrators became the victim of a big shift in the way people look at anti-Semitism today. But the bottom line is this, friends, anti-Semitism is a creation of Satan who wants to destroy the Jews because he knows what’s happening at the end of times that God is going to use Israel for the return of Jesus, the Messiah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen and I echo what Jeff said. This book is amazing. It’s a topic that honestly, most Christians I know have never really studied in depth. And your book lays it all out concretely and in a way that’s literally, once you start reading, it just sucks you in and you don’t want to put the book down. Olivier, honestly, I think that book has a potential to wake a lot of modern day believers up to the fact that anti-Semitism is on the rise today and the role that it’s played throughout church history and even before that. And unfortunately, even how even so-called Christians have done some horrific things in church history against the God’s chosen people. You hit on it a little bit, but where’s all that coming from? Both in terms of kind of an earthly view, what are the groups now that it’s rising from? Whether it’s Progressive’s and anarchists or Islamic or whatever, but also unpack a little bit more, what you talked about with that ultimate source where anti-Semitism is coming from.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier Melnick: Well, I believe that satan is a very astute theologian. He does not like what the Bible has to say, especially what it has to say about him. And he really does not look forward to his retirement plan. So what’s happening is that he knows from scripture, he knows from Matthew, and he knows from Zechariah chapter 12 and 13, that when the Jewish people say [foreign language 00:07:51], when they call up on the one, [inaudible] and simplicity, he who comes in name of the Lord, that Yeshua, Jesus is going to return. The second coming is triggered by Israel, corporately saying, “We missed you the first time, please come,” and calling on the Messiah. And he knows that this is going to start a series of event in the end times or actually that will be towards the end of the events of the tribulation. But it’s going to start the beginning of the end for Satan.
|
||||
|
||||
And so he’s thinking in his narrow minded mind that if he can stop the Jewish people from calling on Yeshua, then He will not come back, and then his career will go forever, even though he knows it’s not true. So he is the creator, he is the mastermind behind ant-Semitism. What we’re seeing today, we’ve seen it throughout history. We see it more today, and I would say more in the last 10 to 15 years. We see a tremendous irrationality. The word that I keep bringing up when I teach on the topic is that the current iteration of anti-Semitism is based on irrational thinking, because people are believing things that are completely irrational. When you look at the two extremes of the people that are actually going against the Jews today, you could look at the liberal left and radical Islam. What’s amazing about those two is, if you put a proponent of the radical left and a proponent of radical Islam in the same room, pretty much, they will agree on nothing except the destruction of Israel.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. It brings common ground to those two groups there, and it’s very interesting. Even recently, but since you’ve written this book, obviously there’s been many more incidences, but just in terms of kind of an undercurrent that’s going on, Olivier, like recently with the coronavirus, there were reports that, Israel is to blame somehow for the coronavirus. And then they tried to blame the death of George Floyd on the Jews, because it turns out that the police departments were supposedly trained by IDF soldiers on take down techniques and arresting techniques. It was, “All goes back to the Jews,” blame the Jews has been this refrain that has been really parroted, like you said not based on facts but based on myth throughout the ages, but more recently.
|
||||
|
||||
So as we began to ramp up to revelation, let’s think about this for a second. Tell our listeners, because I think most people have not really thought about even those familiar with Bible prophecy thought about how Israeli centric the tribulation period is. So what’s going to happen to Israel at the beginning of the tribulation? And just take us through just an overview of how that affects the Jewish people.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier Melnick: Well, I think what’s interesting on top of that, Jeff is the fact that we are seeing right now, some things taking place in the Middle East. I’m a very conservative Bible students so I really don’t like to have to backpedal, so I don’t make statement. I’m careful that way, but what I see with the Middle East peace process right now, the peace that’s being signed between Bahrain and United Arab Emirates and possibly Saudi Arabia soon, and whatever other country that that is untold, but that we know is coming is that, it is setting the stage in Israel for Israel to drop her guard down because it’s like, now the Arab world, all of a sudden is concernting together to say, “Hey, you know what? After all the Jews are really not the problem. And we can get along, we don’t have to be enemies anymore.”
|
||||
|
||||
So this is setting the stage for this person that Jeff knows very well, not personally but [crosstalk 00:12:02]. Exactly. Which is very funny because I’m in the process of writing a paper for Dallas Seminary right now, on the person of the antichrist in Daniel. So this is very fresh in my mind. But the antichrist is going to come, this person who is against Israel, he wants to replace Jesus and he’s against Jesus and he wants to take his place, and he’s going to sign a covenant with Israel. So we’re looking at the seven year tribulation. He’s going to sign a covenant at the beginning of the tribulation and then break that covenant and make life, miserable, is not even the word to use. Basically bring death and destruction to whoever is left behind.
|
||||
|
||||
I’m a pre-trib, I believe that will be gone during the rapture before that. But the antichrist is going to do whatever he can to destroy Israel and the Jewish people. But first that covenant has to be signed, which means that also a temple is going to be rebuilt. I think I’ve been to Israel many times, you go into the Temple Institute, they’re ready. They’ve got everything except for maybe they’re already half for the ashes of the Red Heifer, but they’re ready to rebuild. And that temple is not condoned by God, but it has to be rebuilt because the antichrist is going to desecrate it and call himself God. And in the process, he is determined to destroy the Jewish people. There’s going to be a tremendous hardship against Israel during the tribulation, but there’s also, and I don’t know, do you want me to go any further on that, but there’s also a very interesting passage in Matthew about the sheep and the goats.
|
||||
|
||||
And I find this to be very encouraging, to know that there will be people that will go through the terrible time of the tribulation, but that will actually go out of their way to help Jewish people. And that’s not what’s going to get them saved because what gets them saved is by faith only in Yeshua only. But because they are saved, they’re going to see that God has a special place for the Jews and they will go out of their way to help the Jews during the tribulation. That warms my heart because I see there’s still hope for some Jewish people during the tribulation, mind you, it’s better to reach out to them before the rapture than after obviously.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. Yeah. “When you’ve done it to the least of these, you’ve done it to me,” Jesus said, speaking of his Jewish brother.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier Melnick: Exactly.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I just love the light that you’re bringing to that and the awareness that you bring into it. And with all that, what do you see all of this setting the stage for, in terms of like, what’s next biblically, prophetically speaking, like we look at Ezekiel 38 and with the cords, maybe sending Israel up to be in a place where they’re feel more at peace and let their guard down, like you said, what do you see as next that we should kind of keep our eyes on?
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier Melnick: Well, I’d like to turn that question on its head a little bit and not so much what’s next, because what’s next is basically what the Bible tells us what’s next is going to be… Technically the rapture could take place in the middle of this podcast. There’s nothing, [crosstalk 00:15:53]. The rapture, that would be nice. The Rapture is imminent, it could happen anytime. There’s nothing that needs to happen before the rapture as of this point right now, we know that. So after that, we’ve got the seven year tribulation and the end of the tribulation, Israel recognizes that they miss the Messiah. But what I’d like to spend a moment discussing is that there is a need right now. And that is the topic of my newest book, I don’t know if you guys have it or not, The Time Is Now, which is a smaller booklet that I did. After 20 years of discussing about anti-Semitism is getting and how bad it is, I put this little book out together on, seven steps Christians should take to help the Jewish people.
|
||||
|
||||
I see a need right now for a group of people that I’m very familiar with, they are called, the righteous among the nations. And they were started in 1953 by Yad Vashem in Israel. They’re Gentiles who helped the Jews during the war at the risk of their own lives, not taking any money and really helping to hide and feed and send the Jews into a safe place. They continue to be a group recognized from the Second World War. But I see a need right now for Christians today to realize the gravity of what’s happening and that’s coming against the Jews globally from the right, from the left, from the church even, from radical Islam, from all angles and be prepared to go out of their way.I call them the new righteous among the nations. I talk about them in a little booklet. And I think that we have a biblical mandate as Christians, especially Gentile Christians, to prepare to help the Jewish people again, not to get saved but to get them protected and to eventually get them saved. People will have a chance to say, “Hey, listen, I want to reach out to you. I want to really help the Jewish people, because my Messiah is Jewish, because I have a relationship with the God of Israel, because he loves Israel so I love Israel.”
|
||||
|
||||
So I think we need to wake up the Christian church right now. We need to wake them up to the reality that they are going to need to take a stand for Israel even more so. I look at the chapter 25 of Matthew. I look at that chapter, it’s going to take place in a tribulation where we can take the principle of helping the Jews, because we love the God of the Jews, we can take the principle and do it today, even though that chapter speaks of something taking place in the tribulation. That’s what I like to concentrate on right now, trying to wake up the Christian church to the fact that the Jews are going to need them. And we really, as a church failed 75 years ago.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Really indeed.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Olivier, a couple of questions that just come to my mind is that… Because I want to piggyback on that just a second, a little bit more, but how do you think persecution? And just more of a… Sometimes it’s hard to nail it down and to give specific examples, but sometimes it’s just in the air, how do you think that anti-Semitism across the world is really playing into God’s plan to drive Jewish people back to Israel? What’s the cause and effect relationship you see there?
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier Melnick: Yeah. I definitely see that’s part of the equation because we have seen a large number of Jewish people going back to Israel in the last, maybe 10 years. I think it started with an event that took place in France in 2012, where a rabbi was skilled at a school in the South of France. And then it kept going. And so maybe eight years, I document that in both my books, but there’s definitely an increasing number of Jewish people moving to Israel in fear for their life because Israel might not be a cakewalk, but it’s definitely a country that is not going to deny that the Jews need protection. Currently there’s no place but Israel that is safe for the Jewish people. I get stuff constantly. I just got two different emails recently coming from France, where a long stretch of an avenue right next to the shores in New Zealand, parallel to the Louvre Museum and they have like a series of arcades.
|
||||
|
||||
And then on every single one of the pillar, somebody at sprint painted a swastika for like hundreds of yards. And then two weeks prior, they went into a kosher restaurant, happens to be my nephew’s friend who has a kosher catering business, they destroy the whole restaurant and said, “Hitler was right. Didn’t kill enough Jews.” But that happens all the time, a lot of it in France, a lot of it in different countries of the world, and in some cases, in places where people don’t even know a Jewish person. They’ve never met one, is based on the hearsay, it’s based on the false narrative, but it’s forcing Jewish people to go back to the land, which is something that is predicted in Ezekiel. And so they’re going to go back in unbelief. This has been happening for a while now, the Jewish people are going back to the land in unbelief. So without being a sensationalist, we are really living in prophetic times because the prophecy is being fulfilled in front of our very eyes.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. A lot of people that I know when I try to talk to them about Bible prophecy, and I want to introduce them to the relevance of Bible prophecy in our times, I always challenged them and say, “Please just go read Ezekiel 36 through 39. And you can see that has been filled since 1948, and it continues to be.” And it reads in the exact chronological order of what we see. And so I highlight that and I also remind people, Jesus is a Jewish savior. I hear people say, “Jesus was a Jewish carpenter.” No, he still is Jewish. That’s one thing that I think a lot of believers don’t grasp and think of, he is Jewish. And in the end times there’s going to be this beautiful culmination of the merge of the church and God’s chosen people. What can you share with us about that? Like how all this ties in the end times?
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Olivier Melnick: Well, I was looking for that scripture, as you asked the question. Actually on my iPad, I’m looking for that scripture, and I think it’s in Zephaniah. I love that scripture when it talks about in the millennial, 10 Gentiles would walk and would want to grab the hem of the garment of a Jewish person because they know God. The Jewish people at the end of the tribulation, corporately will all see that Messiah the Jesus is the Messiah and would recognize him and call him to return, which is what triggers the second coming of the Messiah. And so in the millennium, we have Jews and Gentiles who get along [crosstalk] doesn’t exist anymore. And not only that, but the head become the tail and tail become the head.
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And the Jewish people will in a way lead under Messiah Yeshua. But I love that scripture. I can’t find it right now because I’m talking and looking at the same time. But, 10 men from the nations will follow, and I’m paraphrasing the scripture, or follow a Jewish person and say, “We want to go with you because we know that you know God.” So that tells me two things. Number one, that the Jewish in the millennial, and of course you have to know they’re come to saving knowledge of Yeshua. They’ll get into the millennium, they’ll survive the tribulation. Those who will, of course the Jewish believers will return with us at the second coming, but they will know Yeshua, but also anti-Semitism will stop. The Gentiles will be in a good way, jealous of the Jews, in a good way, wanting to go with the Jews because the Jewish people will reflect the awesomeness of God at that time.
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Jeff: Well, and the ultimate irony of history is that every anti-Semite, from Gentiles to radical Muslims will one day stand before a Jewish savior at the great white throne and be judged by him. Kind of, one of those things it’s like, the ultimate oops moment, when they finally realized that. Well, Olivier, I want to ask you this question here, because many people that are listening here have Jewish friends. There are everything from complete atheists who are Jews and rice only, but not in religion all the way up to Orthodox Jews, a varying forms. I was on the Ben Shapiro show once, and he made that a point, “I’m an Orthodox Jew, but I love your book,” And that type of thing, Jews are open to truth, common ground, as we talked about earlier, but how would you say, or how would you suggest that people, if they have a burden for a Jewish friend, how do you open a conversation with someone who is either from the Jewish faith or raised in a Jewish household?
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Olivier Melnick: Jeff, this is not a good question for the last two minutes of a podcast.
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Jeff: Okay. All right. Good.
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Olivier Melnick: So this is what I would like to do. I would like to invite myself at a later date to do a podcast on how to share Messiah with [crosstalk 00:25:41].
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Todd: That’d be awesome.
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Jeff: It also needs to be the topic of a follow-up book that you need to write.
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Olivier Melnick: Yeah. No, we have those books, they exist. But there are some basics on how to reach Jewish people with the good news of the Messiah, and it’s different on the spectrum from being very agnostic and anti-God to being ultra Orthodox. And I could not do justice in giving you an answer in a minute [crosstalk 00:26:11]. I think it would be really worth our time to discuss this at a later time. If you guys are interested.
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Jeff: [crosstalk 00:26:17]. No, I think that would be a highly listened to podcast. That would be great. Olivier, you are an incredible man and we appreciate you so much. We love your heart. We love your spirit. Just the love that flows from you for all people. It was just such a great joy to be able to meet you and to read your book, and to really hear where the path that God has chosen for you and the mission that God has given to you. I know our listeners need to really check you out and talk about just the things that you have accomplished. Tell us right now, tell our listeners where they can find out more information about you and your ministry.
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Olivier Melnick: Well, I am part of chosen People Ministries’. So anything they want to know about what the mission is doing to reach out Jewish people with the gospel of Jesus, they go to chosenpeople.com. They’ll find what we do, the campaigns that we do, or they can help in prayer and support and all the resources that we have a lot. My books and DVDs and various things are available on newantisemitism.com. They’re also on Amazon if you look for them. One is called, The Time Is Now and the other one is called End-Times Antisemitism, as you mentioned earlier. You go to my website to newantisemitism.com, you can find those resources. I’m always open, I have my email, is there on a website. I’m always open to answer questions. If somebody has a Jewish friend who needs to know about Jesus, I’m an email away.
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Jeff: That’s great. Well, Olivia again, thank you so much on behalf of Todd, myself, we love you as a brother, but more than that we just… Not more than that, but in addition to that, we really do appreciate your ministry and pray God’s richest blessings on you as you penetrate the darkness with the message, the truth about our great God and savior Jesus Christ. You’ve been listening to the Prophecy Pros Podcast with our guests, Olivier Melnick, and we appreciate so much your tuning in and being able to join us on these podcasts. This has been a great journey, and we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for sponsoring our podcast. And we want to thank the Edify Network for helping us get the message out there, but more than that, the message about Jesus Christ taking that light into the darkness is what we’re all about. So, thanks again for listening. Jeff Kinley, Todd Hampson saying thanks again from Prophecy Pros Podcast.
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![[S2E12: Olivier Melnick: Global Anti-Semitism and God’s Plan for Israel.mp3]]
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Todd: Hey, Todd here, and you’re listening to the Prophecy Pros Podcast on the Edifi Podcast Network. Our guest today, Olivier Melnick, is the Northwest regional director of Chosen People Ministries, and he serves on the board of directors for Chosen People France. He’s an author and a speaker and a personal friend of ours. He’s an expert on the topic of antisemitism and Bible prophecy and how they intersect. Olivier, welcome to the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
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Olivier: Thank you, Todd and Jeff. I’m very happy to join you today.
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Todd: We really appreciate your time, brother. We’ve been looking forward to this. And most of our listeners probably have never heard of you before. So if you could, why don’t you to tell a little bit about you and your ministry and your background and that kind of thing?
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Olivier: I was born and raised in Paris, France in a Jewish family. My parents who are both gone now were war and Holocaust survivors. My mother actually was hidden in the South of France on a farm as a catholic girl during the last two years of the war. So I was brought up in a Jewish family but not really religious because as many Jews during the war, my parents lost any shred of faith in any kind of God after the Holocaust. So I was brought up Jewish but not religious.
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Moved to the United States after I got married to my American wive who led me to the Lord in 1985, by scaring me about the rapture and telling me that we would be separated if she was taken. And I thought this was crazy, but I believed. In 1983, she led me to the Lord in the summer of 1983. Came back to the States and started getting involved in church, bible studies, joined different ministries as a lay person. And eventually in 1998, we joined Chosen People Ministries, and we’ve been with them for almost 23 years now. And I currently, like you said, serve in the Northwest.
|
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I do a lot of travel, a lot of speaking on the topic of antisemitism. Started doing that in about 2000 and have written a civil books on the topic and many, many articles. And this is not a topic that I’ve chosen, this is a topic that God has kind of put on my lap. It gets very draining, very difficult to deal with this on a daily basis. But not that many people that are Jewish, who are believers in Yeshua, Jesus, do this. So, I keep doing it until God tells me that I’m going to have to do something else.
|
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Jeff: Amen. Well, Olivier, I first met you at a prophecy conference here about a year ago I think it was. Our tables were beside one another, and you gave me a copy of your book, End Times AntiSemitism: A New Chapter in the Longest Hatred. Brought that book home, I set it in my stack of books to read. And then I started writing a book, one of my books, and one of my chapters deals with antisemitism. But I just want to tell you that I read your book from cover to cover and you did such an incredible job of categorizing all of the antisemitism really all the way from biblical times up until now.
|
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And brother, you just did a fantastic job. I highly, highly recommended this book. I quote from you several times in my new book because you highlight the fact that there is a sub-current of antisemitism that has really run throughout history. Just speak on that for a second, and then tell us about how you see it on the rise right now in America with perhaps even some recent examples.
|
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Olivier: Well, in the book, which is my second book on the topic, I felt it necessary to go through history and give people, give Christians a history of antisemitism. When you look at the history of the Jewish people, and I just started to teach a Bible study online on that topic two weeks ago, when you look at the history of Jewish people, it’s easy to say that the history of Jewish people has been punctuated by acts of antisemitism. You look at how we look at Jewish people, and it actually is not uncommon to speak of Jewish history as pre-Holocaust and post-Holocaust.
|
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|
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I wanted to document in that book the progression of antisemitism, which really started as theological anti-Judaism between the Christians and the Jews in the first couple of centuries after the closing of the Bible, closing of the Canon, the first, second century. And then it evolved and evolved and evolved to apex being the Holocaust. And then it morphed. I’m giving you a quick summary here, it morphed within 20 years, two decades after the Holocaust would become taboo. It was swept under the carpet. Early stages of political correctness so to speak.
|
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|
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Then it came out again, it never really died, it came out again, and it was rebranded and reborn as the new antisemitism where the victims became the perpetrators and the perpetrators became the victim, a big shift in the way people look at antisemitism today.
|
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|
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The bottom line is this friends, antisemitism is a creation of Satan who wants to destroy the Jews because he knows what’s happening at the end of times that God is going to use Israel for the return of Jesus, the Messiah.
|
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|
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Todd: Amen. And I echo what Jeff said, this book is amazing. It’s a topic that honestly, most Christians I know have never really studied in depth, and your book lays it all out concretely and in a way that’s, literally, once you start reading, it just sucks you in, you don’t want to put the book down. And I think Olivier, honestly, I think that book has a potential to wake a lot of modern day believers up to the fact that antisemitism is on the rise today and the role that it’s played throughout church history and even before that. And unfortunately, how even so-called Christians have done some horrific things in church history against God’s chosen people.
|
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|
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You hit on it a little bit, but where’s all that coming from both in terms of kind of an earthly view, what are the groups now that it’s rising from? Whether it’s Progressive’s and anarchists or Islamists or whatever, but also unpack a little bit more what you talked about with that ultimate source where antisemitism is coming from.
|
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|
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Olivier: I believe that Satan is a very, very astute theologian. He does not like what the Bible has to say, especially when it has to say about him. And he really, really does not look forward to his retirement plan. So what’s happening is that he knows from scripture, he knows from Matthew and he knows from Zechariah chapter 12 and 13, that when the Jewish people say [Hebrew], when they call up on the one whom they’ve pierced and say, blessed is you who comes in the name of the Lord, that Yeshua, Jesus is going to return. The second coming is triggered by Israel corporately saying, we missed you the first time, please come, and calling them the Messiah. And he knows that this is going to start a series of event in the end times, or actually that will be towards the end of the events of the tribulation, but it’s going to start the beginning of the end for Satan.
|
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So he’s thinking in his narrow-minded mind that if he can stop the Jewish people from calling on Yeshua, then you will not come back, and then his career will go forever, even though he knows it’s not true. So he is the creator, he is the mastermind behind antisemitism. And what we’re seeing today, we’ve seen it throughout history, but we’ve seen it more today, and I would say more in the last 10 to 15 years, we see a tremendous irrationality. The word that I keep bringing up when I teach on the topic is that the current iteration of antisemitism is based on irrational thinking, because people are believing things that are completely irrational.
|
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When you look at the two extremes of the people that are actually going against the Jews today, you could look at the liberal left and radical Islam. What’s amazing about those two is if you put a proponent of the radical left and a proponent of radical Islam in the same room, pretty much, they will agree on nothing except the destruction of Israel.
|
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Jeff: It brings common ground to those two groups there. And it’s very interesting. Even recently, but since you’ve written this book, I mean, obviously there’s been many more incidences, but just in terms of kind of an undercurrent that’s going on, Olivier, like recently with the coronavirus, there were reports that, oh, Israel is to blame somehow for the coronavirus. And then they tried to blame the death of George Floyd on the Jews because turns out that the police departments were supposedly trained by IDF soldiers on take down techniques and arresting techniques. So it all goes back to the Jews. Blame the Jews has been this refrain that has been really parroted, like you said, not based on facts, but based on myth throughout the ages, but more recently.
|
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So as we begin to ramp up to revelation, let’s think about this for a second, tell our listeners, because I think most people have not really thought about, even those familiar with Bible prophecy, thought about how Israeli centric the tribulation period is. So, what’s going to happen to Israel at the beginning of the tribulation, and just take us through just an overview of how that affects the Jewish people?
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Olivier: I think what’s interesting on top of that, Jeff, is the fact that we are seeing right now some things taking place in the middle East. And I’m a very conservative Bible students so I really don’t like to have to backpedal, so I don’t make statements. I’m careful that way. But what I see with the middle East peace process right now, the peace that’s being signed between Bahrain and United Arab Emirates and possibly Saudi Arabia soon, and whatever other country that is untold but we knew is coming, is that it is setting the stage in Israel for Israel to drop her guard down because it’s like, now the Arab world all of a sudden is concerting together to say, hey, you know what, after all, the Jews are really not the problem, and we can get along, we don’t have to be enemies anymore.
|
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So this is setting the stage for this person that Jeff knows very well, not personally.
|
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|
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Jeff: Barely.
|
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|
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Olivier: Right, right, right. Exactly. Which is very funny because I’m in the process of writing a paper for Dallas Seminary right now on the person of the antichrist in Daniel. So, this is very fresh in my mind. But the antichrist is going to come, this person who is against Israel, he wants to replace Jesus and he wants to, he’s against Jesus and he wants to take his place, and he’s going to sign a covenant with Israel. So we’re looking at the seven year tribulation, he’s going to sign a covenant at the beginning of the tribulation and then break that covenant and make life, miserable is not even the word to use, basically bring death and destruction to whoever is left behind. Now, I’m a [inaudible] pre-trib, I believe that we’ll be gone during the rapture, before that. But the antichrist is going to do whatever he can to destroy Israel and the Jewish people. But first, that covenant has to be signed, which means that also a temple is going to be rebuilt. I’ve been to Israel many times. You go to the temple, they’re ready, they’ve got everything except for maybe the red heifer or the ashes of the red heifer. They’re ready to rebuild. And that temple is not condoned by God but it has to be rebuilt because the antichrist is going to desecrate it and call himself God. And in the process, he is determined to destroy the Jewish people.
|
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|
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So there’s going to be a tremendous hardship against Israel during the tribulation. But there’s also, and I don’t know if you want me to go any further on that, but there’s also a very interesting passage in Matthew about the sheep and the goats. I find this to be very encouraging, to know that there will be people that will go through the terrible time of the tribulation but that will actually go out of their way to help Jewish people. And that’s not what’s going to get them saved because what gets them saved is by faith only, in Yeshua only. But because they are saved, they’re going to see that God has a special place for the Jews and they will go out of their way to help the Jews during the tribulation. That warms my heart because I see there’s still hope for some Jewish people during the tribulation. Mind you, it’s better to reach out to them before the rapture than after obviously.
|
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Jeff: Absolutely. Yeah, when you’ve done it to the least of these, you’ve done it to me, Jesus said, speaking of his Jewish brethren.
|
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|
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Olivier: Exactly.
|
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Todd: I just love that the light that you’re bringing to that and the awareness that you bring into it. And with all that, what do you see all of this setting the stage for, in terms of what’s next biblically, prophetically speaking. We look at Ezekiel 38 and with these accords maybe sending Israel up to be in a place where they feel more at peace and let their guard down, like you said. What do you see as next that we should kind of keep our eyes on?
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Olivier: Well, I’d like to turn that question on its head a little bit. And not so much what’s next, because what’s next is basically what the Bible tells us what’s next, is going to be, I mean, technically the retro ridiculous in the middle of this podcast.
|
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|
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Jeff: Yes. That’d be nice.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: That would be nice. The rapture is imminent. It could happen anytime. There’s nothing that needs to happen before the rapture as of this point right now. We know that. So after that, we’ve got the seven year tribulation, and at the end of the tribulation, Israel recognizes that they missed the Messiah. But what I’d like to spend a moment discussing is that there is a need right now. That is the topic of my newest book, I don’t know if you guys have it or not, The Time is Now, which is a smaller booklet that I did. After 20 years of discussing about antisemitism [inaudible] how bad it is, I put this little book out together on seven steps Christians should take to help the Jewish people.
|
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|
||||
I see a need right now for a group of people that I’m very familiar with that used to, they are called the righteous among the nations, and they were started in 1953 by Yad Vashem in Israel. They’re Gentiles who helped the Jews during the war at the risk of their own lives, not taking any money and really helping to hide and feed and send the Jews to a safe place. And they continue to be a group recognized from the second world war. But I see a need right now for Christians today to realize the gravity of what’s happening and what’s coming against the Jews globally from the right, from the left, from the church even, from radical Islam, from all angles. And be prepared to go out of their way, I call them the new righteous among the nations, I talk about them in that little booklet.
|
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|
||||
And I think that we have a biblical mandate as Christians, especially Gentile Christians, to prepare to help the Jewish people, again, not to get saved, but get them protected and to eventually get them saved, as people have a chance to say, hey, listen, I want to reach out to you, I want to help Israel, I want to help the Jewish people because my Messiah is Jewish, because I have a relationship with the God of Israel, because he loves Israel so I love Israel. So, I think we need to wake up the Christian Church right now, we need to wake them up to the reality that they are going to need to take a stand for Israel even more so.
|
||||
|
||||
And so, I look at Chapter 25 of Matthew, I look at that chapter, it’s going to take place in a tribulation but we can take the principle of helping the Jews because we love the God of the Jews. We can take the principle and do it today, even though that chapter speaks of something taking place in the tribulation. That’s what I like to concentrate on right now, trying to wake up the Christian church to the fact that Jews are going to need them. We really as a church failed 75 years ago.
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|
||||
Todd: Really did.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Olivier, a couple of questions that just come to my mind is that, because I want to piggyback on that just a second a little bit more, but how do you think persecution, and just more of a, sometimes it’s hard to nail it down and to give specific examples, but sometimes it’s just in the air. How do you think that antisemitism across the world is really playing into God’s plan to drive Jewish people back to Israel? What’s the cause and effect relationship you see there?
|
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|
||||
Olivier: I definitely see that’s part of the equation because we have seen a large number of Jewish people going back to Israel in the last maybe 10 years. I think it started with an event that took place in France in 2012, where a rabbi was killed at a school in the South of France. And then it kept going. And so maybe eight years, I document that in both my books. There’s definitely an increasing number of Jewish people moving to Israel in fear for their life, because Israel might not be a cakewalk, but it’s definitely a country that is not going to deny that the Jews need protection. And currently, there’s no place but Israel that is safe for the Jewish people.
|
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|
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I get stuff constantly, I just got two different emails recently coming from France, where a long, long stretch of an avenue right next to the [inaudible] parallel to the Louvre museum, like an arcade, a series of arcades. And then on every single one of the pillar, somebody has spray-painted a swastika for hundreds of yards. And then two weeks prior, they went into a kosher restaurant, happens to be my nephew’s friend who has a kosher catering business, they destroyed the whole restaurant and said, Hitler was right, didn’t kill enough Jews.
|
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|
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That happens all the time. A lot of it in France, a lot of it in different countries of the world. And in some cases, in places where people don’t even know a Jewish person, they’ve never met one. It’s based on the hearsay, it’s based on the false narrative. But it’s forcing Jewish people to go back to the land, which is something that is predicted in Ezekiel. So they’re going to go back in unbelief. This has been happening for a while now. The Jewish people are going back to the land in unbelief. So without being a sensationalist, we are really living in prophetic times because prophecy is being fulfilled in front of our very eyes.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: A lot of people that I know when I try to talk to them about Bible prophecy and I want to introduce them to the relevance of Bible prophecy in our times, I always challenged them, I say, please, just go read Ezekiel 36 through 39, and you can see that has been filled since 1948, and it continues to be. And it reads in the exact chronological order of what we see. I highlight that. And also, I also remind people, Jesus is a Jewish savior. I hear people say Jesus was a Jewish carpenter. No, he still is Jewish. That’s one thing that I think a lot of believers don’t grasp and think of, he is Jewish. And in the end times, there’s going to be this beautiful culmination of the merge of the church and God’s chosen people. What can you share with us about that, kind of how all this ties in the end times?
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Well, I was looking for that scripture, as you asked the question, actually on my iPad, I’m looking for that scripture, I think it’s in Zephaniah, I love that scripture when it talks about, in the millennial, 10 Gentiles would want to grab the hem of the garment of a Jewish person because they know God. The Jewish people at the end of the tribulation, those who corporately will all see that Messiah, [inaudible] Jesus is the Messiah and would recognize him and call him to return, which is what triggers the second coming of the Messiah. And so in the millennium, we have Jews and Gentiles who get along, antisemitism doesn’t exist anymore. And not only that, the head become the tail and the tail become the head. And the Jewish people will in a way lead under Messiah Yeshua.
|
||||
|
||||
I love that scripture, I can’t find it right now because I’m talking and looking at the same time. But 10 men from the nations will follow, I’m paraphrasing the scripture, will follow a Jewish person and say, we want to go with you because we know that you know God. So that tells me two things. Number one, that the Jewish people in the millennial, of course you have to know, they have come to a saving knowledge of Yeshua. They’ll get into the millennium, they’ll survive the tribulation, those who will, of course. The Jewish believers will return with us at the second coming. But they will know Yeshua but also antisemitism will stop, the Gentiles will be in a good way jealous of the Jews, in a good way wanting to go with the Jews because the Jewish people will reflect the awesomeness of God at that time.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, and the ultimate irony of history is that every antisemite from Gentiles to radical Muslims will one day stand before a Jewish savior at the great white throne and be judged by him. That’s kind of one of those things that’s like the ultimate oops moment, when they finally realized that. Well, Olivier, I want to ask you this question here because many people that are listening here have Jewish friends. There are everything from complete atheists who are Jews in race only, but not in religion, all the way up to Orthodox Jews of varying forms. I was on the Ben Shapiro show once and he made that a point. I’m an Orthodox Jew, but I love your book, and that type of thing. People that are open, Jews that are open to truth, common ground as we talked about earlier.
|
||||
|
||||
How would you suggest that people, if they have a burden for a Jewish friend, how do you open a conversation with someone who is either from the Jewish faith or raised in a Jewish household?
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Jeff, this is not a good question for the last two minutes of a podcast. This is what I would like to do. I would like to invite myself at a later date to do a podcast on how to share Messiah with the Jewish people.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Oh perfect.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’d be awesome.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It also needs to be the topic of a follow-up book that you need to write.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: We have those books, they exist. There are some basics on how to reach Jewish people with the good news of the Messiah. And it’s different on the spectrum from being very agnostic and anti-God to being ultra Orthodox. I could not do justice in giving you an answer in a minute. I think it would be really worth our time to discuss this at a later time, if you guys are interested.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. No, I think that would be a highly listened to podcast. That would be great. Olivier, you are an incredible man and we appreciate you so much. We love your heart, we love your spirit. Just the love that flows from you for all people. It was just such a great joy to be able to meet you and to read your book, and to really hear where the path that God has chosen for you and the mission that God has given to you. And I know our listeners need to really check you out and talk about just the things that you have accomplished. Right now, tell our listeners where they can find out more information about you and your ministry.
|
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Olivier: I am part of Chosen People Ministry. So anything they want to know about, what the mission is doing to reach out Jewish people with the gospel of Jesus, they go to chosenpeople.com. They’ll find what we do, the campaigns that we do. They can help prayer and support, and all the resources that we have, and we have a lot. My books and DVDs and various things are available on newantisemitism.com, newantisemitism.com. But also, they’re also on Amazon if you look for them. One is called the time is now and the other one is called End Times Antisemitism, as you mentioned earlier. So, if you go to my website, newantisemitism.com, you can find those resources. And I’m always open. My email is there on the website, I’m always open to answer questions. If somebody has a Jewish friend who needs to know about Jesus, I’m an email away.
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Jeff: Cool. That’s great. Well, Olivier, again, thank you so much. On behalf of Todd and myself, we love you as a brother, but more than that, not more than that, in addition to that, we really do appreciate your ministry and pray God’s richest blessings on you as you penetrate the darkness with the message, the truth about our great God and savior Jesus Christ.
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You’ve been listening to the Prophecy Pros Podcast with our guest, Olivier Melnick. And we appreciate so much your tuning in and being able to join us on these podcasts. This has been a great journey, and we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for sponsoring our podcast. And we want to thank the Edifi Network for helping us get the message out there. But more than that, the message about Jesus Christ taking that light into the darkness is what we’re all about. So, thanks again for listening. Jeff Kinley, Todd Hampson saying thanks again from the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
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![[S2E13: Is the Kingdom Here Now or Yet to Come?.mp3]]
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Todd: Hey, Todd here, and you’re listening to the Prophecy Pros Podcast on the Edifi podcast network.
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Jeff: Chances are, you’ve probably prayed the Lord’s Prayer at times, and you’ve said, “Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Well, that’s the kingdom, but have you ever wondered what that kingdom actually is? And is it ever really going to come, or maybe what’s it going to be like? I mean, do you see God sitting on a throne in your head, or do you see images of some future glory filling your mind? Maybe you’ve been led to believe that his kingdom is not a future reality, but maybe it’s right here and now, or could it be all of those things? Todd, so we’re talking about the kingdom of God here. This is a topic that can be a little bit confusing to people because it’s something that we toss around a lot in Christian circles. So, what are some of the ways that people talk about the kingdom of God? In the church, we’ll talk about, like I said, the Lord’s Prayer and that kind of thing. What are some other ways that we talk about the kingdom?
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Todd: I think there’s actually a lot of confusion around this, some of it because of picking out different scriptures, but also, people don’t know. Is the kingdom now, is it later? Is the future… What Revelation talks about, the 1000-year reign, is that a literal future kingdom? And as you mentioned, even when we pray the Lord’s Prayer, we’re praying, “Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Well, I assure you, God’s will is not being done on earth right now. I mean, God’s in control, he’s sovereign, but there’s a lot of rebellious people doing some crazy stuff. So, his kingdom is obviously not here, but at the same time, Jesus said, when he had his first Advent, he said, “The kingdom of God is in your midst.”
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And even as far back as the Old Testament, God’s kingdom was a prevalent theme. King David prayed, “Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty. Indeed, everything that is in the heavens and earth, yours is the dominion, O Lord, and you exalt yourself as head over all. Both riches and honor come from you, and you rule over all, and in your hand is power and might, and it lies in your hand to make great and strengthen every one.” So, obviously, God’s kingdom, God is ultimately in control and sovereign over everything. But how does that differ from what you and I talk about, is the future millennial kingdom?
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Jeff: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think it’s important to establish that, because I think from a theological standpoint, Todd, that’s an issue. God’s sovereignty… we talk about God’s sovereignty… just simply means that he’s in charge, he’s in control. And we talk about that. That is an aspect of his kingdom. I mean, just think about earthly kingdoms, for a moment, that have been on earth. I mean, there’s a king and he rules over his kingdom. Well, as you read from that scripture in 1 Chronicles 29, God is over all. So, I think just establishing that one fact, that… and y’all almost have these other sub-kingdoms or future kingdoms, but just to establish the truth that God is righteously sovereign over all that there is. And there are people throughout the Old Testament that recognize that. And King Nebuchadnezzar, after his debacle episode there in Daniel 4, he says that God’s dominion is an everlasting dominion. His kingdom endures from generation to generation. King Darius later said, “He’s the living God. He endures forever. His kingdom is one which will never be destroyed.” And others, obviously, as you go throughout the Old Testament, you see that. But then you get to Isaiah. When Isaiah starts predicting the Messiah, what he say about the coming Messiah?
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Todd: Yeah. I mean, that’s a famous Christmas passage, so to speak, that people are used to hearing, and it’s one that they don’t pay attention to all the details. I mean, I never paid attention to all the details until I started studying Bible prophecy and eschatology, but it says, “A child will be born to us, a son will be given to us,” and we’re used to hearing that part, but we often look over or don’t think about the fact that most people don’t quite understand the second part. It says, “And the government will rest on his shoulders,” and that’s in Isaiah 9:6. So, that sounds like a pretty specific thing, that the government is going to rest on his shoulders.
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Jeff: Yeah. I mean, at Christmas time, we keep going back to the baby Jesus, and we never talk about the government that he’s going to rule over, that he’s going to establish there, and yet that’s part of the prophecy of the birth of Christ. So, how does that work? I mean, Christ came and when he came to the Jews, I mean, it says he came to his own, his own received him not. But when Jesus came on the scene, as you said earlier, I mean, one of the first things… In fact, I guess the first thing we hear him saying is, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” So, in what sense, then, what different aspect of the kingdom was he talking to them about?Todd: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That’s a great question. And just to back up to one point that I wanted to point out with the Isaiah 9:6 is that often in the Bible, in the Old Testament specifically, we have the mountain peaks of prophecy. So, one verse might have two aspects. In hindsight, we see, “Oh, that’s the first coming and the second coming,” but at the time, they didn’t quite see it. So, when Jewish people used to read this, it was confusing to them. “Wait a minute. A child’s going to be born and the government’s going to be on his shoulders?” Now we understand one was talking about the first Advent, one was talking about the second Advent, but then, yeah. You come to the New Testament, and it’s where Jesus said, like you said, “The kingdom of heaven is in your midst. My kingdom is not of this world.” So, I see why there’s some confusion over the future millennial kingdom, because people are seeing Jesus talk about the kingdom of heaven being in their midst at that time. And I think part of that is, Jesus was building his kingdom one soul at a time as people received him and believed in him. Is that your take as well, Jeff?
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Jeff: Yeah. To me, it’s almost like a dual track here. I mean, on the one hand, he’s letting them know that because the king is among you, the kingdom is around you, and that he is building the kingdom… Because then later he says, “The kingdom of God is within you.” He also said that as well. The second area is that Christ did come to offer the kingdom to the Jews, and they rejected him, which is why we read in Romans 11:25 and 26 that God put Israel on the side burner during the times of the Gentiles, and of course in the end times, he’s going to return to Israel as a nation, and she’s going to repent and call upon him, and then he’s going to establish that millennial kingdom.
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But, yeah. So, I think it’s a dual track there. I read a very interesting chapter in a book. I think it’s a book called Discerners. I could check that out, but anyway, it’s a book I was a part of contributing to, but there’s a scholar that you and I both know by the name of Arnold Fruchtenbaum, and he’s a Jewish scholar, and the guy is just brilliant. And he has written some incredible insights on the Gospel of Matthew regarding Jesus’s offer of the kingdom to the Jews. And he traces through the offer of the kingdom and when that offer officially ended for them, and so that’s a fascinating study. If you want to do some additional studies, you look up Arnold Fruchtenbaum on his views on the Jews and [crosstalk 00:07:43]-
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Todd: You can say his last name five times fast.
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Jeff: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s like, I think my tongue will get tangled. It’ll get put in knot if I do that too much. I’m always careful how I pronounced that.
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Todd: Yeah. So, in a sense, we know God’s sovereign over everything. We know that he saw the church age was there, even though we didn’t see it… now we see it in hindsight… was in the Old Testament. But in a sense, if the Jewish leadership would have responded at that time, technically or legally speaking, he could have instituted the kingdom at his first Advent, in a theological, mind-bending kind of way.
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Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. And again, doctor… His name-
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Todd: Fruchtenbaum.
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Jeff: Yeah. He goes into that, about, was the offer legitimate because he knew they would reject it? What would have happened had they accepted it? That type of thing. It’s really a fascinating study, but here’s where it gets a little bit even more dicey here, Todd, is because you say, okay, you’ve said God’s kingdom has existed from eternity, because he’s ruling over all. But then you said, then it’s here with Christ. Then you said, it’s going to be in the future. And then you said, it was offered to the Jews. So, you have all these multiple aspects of the kingdom going on right now, but then now, you look at scripture and you see where the Bible says that Satan is the God of this world.And you recall, during the temptation in Luke chapter four, the devil eats Christ up, shows him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, which is a very interesting concept. You think about the spiritual world, what angels can do, the instant travel times that angels are able to have because they’re spirit beings. Obviously Christ can do that, as well. But anyway, it says he shows them all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and then the devil says, “I will give you all this domain and its glory, for it has been handed over to me and I give it to whomever I wish.” Now, what we do not see in that passage, Todd, is Jesus going, “No, no, no. You can’t give that to me. That didn’t belong to you.” In fact, Christ says of Satan, “He is the ruler of this world.” And many times he says that in John, and then 1 John, he says the whole world lies in the power of the evil one, and then 2 Corinthians 4:4, Satan’s the God of this world. So, if he’s the prince of the power of the air, whose kingdom is it? I mean, how does Satan’s kingdom fit into God’s kingdom?
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Todd: It’s funny. I write about that a little bit in The Non-Prophet’s Guide to Spiritual Warfare, and it’s really fascinating in that, as we mentioned before, God’s ultimately in control of everything. The devil’s God’s devil, so to speak. He even uses the devil with his free will and all that stuff to accomplish his will, but in some weird legal sense, when man fell, this earth was title deeded, so to speak, to Satan and like you said, he’s the prince of the power of the air. He’s the God of this age. And I find it really interesting… For another book, The Non-Prophet’s Guide to the Book of Revelation, I did some deeper study on the seal judgments, and it’s really… What I found was, and this might’ve actually been, also, some study from Arnold Fruchtenbaum, talking about how the scroll was essentially the title deed to the earth, and Jesus is seen there as the kinsman redeemer who came, who had to be willing to pay the price, able to pay the price, and from the same family. So, that’s the whole reason he came as a person, so that he could redeem us. So, the whole Book of Revelation really is about Jesus reclaiming the earth and then setting up the future millennial kingdom.
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Jeff: Yes. In fact, Todd, that, to me, is so powerful, what you just shared, because when you look at Revelation 5, it says that there’s a strong angel who says with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”, and no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or look into it. And if this truly is the title deed to the world and to the nations and to the universe, John says in verse four, “I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book and to look into it,” and to think about that from John’s perspective, for a moment, John’s going, well, if he can’t open it, then [crosstalk 00:12:17]-
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Todd: We’re toast.
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Jeff: Yeah. Well, the world’s just going to keep lying in the power of the evil one, and our future is not hopeful. But then, “one of the elders said to me, ‘Stop weeping; behold, the lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.'” I will tell you something, Todd. That fires me up, man. That gives me goosebumps.
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Todd: Yep, exactly.
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Jeff: I mean, isn’t that cool, that Jesus is the one’s going to take back that kingdom, or that subkingdom of Satan? And even as you were talking a minute ago, I had this image in my mind. It’s like, God’s kingdom on earth, God’s rule over the earth, is like a big backyard and there’s this pit bull that’s been chained to this post in the backyard. He’s there, and he rules over that little circumference that he’s able to run in, but he’s not in charge of the whole yard. And so, Satan is like that pit bull. He’s on a leash. In fact, he’s going to be on a great chain during [inaudible] kingdom, that he’s not going to be able to get out of… But, yeah. So, in that sense, maybe that’s how Satan perhaps fits into this, is that God has sovereignly allowed him to have a certain rule and domain for a period of time. Of course, that ties into God’s purpose for evil and why God allows evil, and that kind of thing that we won’t have time to go into right now, but God’s rightful rule over his creation will be resumed when Satan is finally chained.Todd: Yeah. That’s amazing, man. That just blows my mind when I think about… Whenever I read that passage and to think about that moment, that just blows my mind. That moment, and the moment when we first stand before the throne and see the 24 elders and all that stuff. It just blows your mind to think we’ll actually be there. But one big question this brings up, the whole topic of the… Especially the millennial kingdom. So, we’ve been talking about God’s kingdom, his overarching… I love how you put it, his overarching kingdom, and then you’ve got smaller spheres that he’s still ultimately in control of, but deeded over for a time period.
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But there is a future millennial kingdom, and I think this trips a lot of Christians up, depending on how they interpret scripture, maybe what denomination they came from, maybe what they were taught growing up. For example, I know a lot of believers are taught that we’re in the millennial kingdom right now, that the 1000 years that Revelation talks about is just symbolic in that it’s symbolic of the church age, when Satan is bound. Well, first of all, if Satan’s bound, I hate to see him when he’s loose, because this is a jacked-up place right now.
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Jeff: Exactly.
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Todd: But what can we share with, say, a believer who has always wondered about the millennial kingdom, but maybe doubted that it’s a literal future kingdom and doesn’t quite understand the purpose of that kingdom, in terms of how to interpret scripture and why we believe scripture says that it’s a literal 1000-year future reign of Christ on earth? What are some things we can share with them?
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Jeff: Well, I think some very positive, encouraging things, Todd, because first of all, how we approach scripture will determine how we end up in our interpretation of scripture. And I liken it to a flight plan on a plane. If your flight plan is off at the very beginning, you’re not going to just miss the runway, dude, you’re going to miss the airport, the city, the state, everything. You’re going to be out in the ocean somewhere. So, you’ve got to have a flight plan, and that’s what Bible study methods, or hermeneutics, it’s called, the interpretation of scripture, that’s what that does for us. And when you look at the Bible with, as Ron Rhodes said, “When the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you end up with nonsense.” When we take just a plain, literal, historical, grammatical approach to scripture, then you will arrive at a certain interpretation.
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Well, as it relates to Revelation, if we don’t look at Revelation as being written in plain, literal language… And granted, there are many symbols in Revelation, and many of them are explained for us within the book, but if we don’t start with that, then quite frankly, any interpretation is legitimate for Revelation. I mean, you’re going to end up way out of the ballpark and with some crazy whacked-out views if you just see Revelation as just being metaphorical or symbolic or some giant parable of good and evil or something like that. But if you look at it as literal, then history really is making sense. Then there will be a literal Antichrist, a literal rebuilt temple, a literal Israel, back in the land. And then when you get to Revelation 20, it talks about a kingdom, and six times in seven verses, it says the word 1000.
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Now, John’s not an idiot, and obviously he’s being inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is giving this vision to him. So, you have to ask the question, why did Jesus say 1000, 1000, 1000, six times? Why didn’t he just say, “It’s going to be for a long time,” or for an indefinite period, or it’s just going to be for forever, or whatever? No, there’s a specific number, and numbers are very important in the Bible, especially when they’re repeated six times in seven verses.
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Todd: I was going to say, if God says something one time, it’s important. He says it six times, he’s like, “You better pay attention to this.”
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Jeff: Yes. It’s like, any good teacher… Your wife’s a teacher. She knows this. Repetition is so key to implanting a thought in someone’s mind or getting the point across. And the other reason, not just to look at the individual passage, but to say, what did God do with all of the other prophecies in the Old Testament? Some contained numbers as well. Some contained places and cities. Well, were those prophecies fulfilled literally in exactly the way they were prophesied? Well, the answer is yes, every single one of them. I mean, Bethlehem was not a metaphor for some other city. It was Bethlehem. And so when we look at the past and we see all of God’s previous prophecies are literally fulfilled exactly as written, why would we not believe that all future prophecies would also be fulfilled in the same manner?
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So, for that reason, that’s why we choose this method of interpretation, because it leads us to believe that these prophecies are going to be literally fulfilled, and that means there’s going to be 1000 years of Christ’s reign on the earth. Not 999, not just some indefinite time, but 1000 years, and that’s called the millennial kingdom.
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Todd: Yeah. Exactly. And yeah, in the Old Testament, when God said over and over again that Israel was going to be taken captive in Babylon for 70 years, it wound up being 70 years. So, he’s very precise. And like you said, he doesn’t change game plans in the middle of the game. And so, I point people there. And then also, once that’s established, I think it’s important to tell people, “Go back and take a fresh look at Isaiah, for example.” There’s very large chunks of specific prophecies about the future kingdom that definitely have not been fulfilled yet and can only be fulfilled in the future millennial kingdom. So, either you can throw out half of Isaiah and just say, “Oh, that’s just a bunch of poetry,” but then where’s the application? The Bible tells us all scripture is God-breathed and profitable for study and rebuke and correction and all that.
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So, if we really believe, like you said, that we can take scripture at face value and God says what he means and means what he says, then we can bank on that these things are literally going to happen in the future. And while that might be hard to believe… I think it’s harder to believe than it is for people to actually… It’s less of an interpretation thing for some people. It’s just so hard to believe that there’s going to be a millennial kingdom here on earth before we go to the eternal state, and all that kind of stuff. And to be honest, the millennial kingdom gets a lot weirder than that when you think about us in our spiritual glorified bodies coming back with Christ and then survivors from the tribulation period entering in their natural bodies. But again, as weird as that is, it lines up with the Old Testament prophecies about the nature of the kingdom and everything that the Bible says about the kingdom.
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Jeff: Well, it does. And you and I got a question last week from a listener asking about, “Hey, do you know any good books out there that will help me help persuade other people of the validity of Bible prophecy?” And we had a couple of suggestions given to them, but one of the things, Todd, that we’ve actually already written is this quick reference guide to the end times that has 10 of the most-asked questions about the end times. It’s just a little booklet. It’s just like 64, 67 pages long, but it really is kind of whet your appetite. It’s a great tool to give to people for this very thing. And of course our larger book’s coming out in July. It’s going to answer 100 questions about the end times.
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But all that to say is this. When you think about the previous prophecies being fulfilled and you look at these other prophecies about the kingdom being 1000 years, that type of thing, I always tell people, I say, “Look. Hey, the Bible just keeps getting really, really lucky. It’s like, every single time it says something’s going to happen, it happens.” So either yes, the Bible is incredibly lucky, like thousands of times lucky, kind of thing, over the centuries, or it’s really written by God. And there’s only really two options to look at on that kind of thing. These are not fortune cookies that we’re reading here and just making things of history fit into it. These are very specific things that have happened.
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So, no, the Bible’s not just rolling snake eyes every time. I mean, God has divinely ordained these things and he’s going to cause [inaudible] the path, because we’re talking about a sovereign God here, a God who is over this great kingdom called the universe, and so he therefore has the power to cause these things to happen. So, yeah, I do believe it’s going to be a literal kingdom, but as we move towards the end here and wrap this thing up about the kingdom, what, Todd, would you say are some ways that we can take part in the kingdom? Obviously we do pray for the kingdom come, thy will be done. We’re talking about the millennial kingdom. This government that rests on Christ’s shoulders, that’s going to be the millennial kingdom, but we’re not there yet. So, in what sense can believers participate? And as people say, talk about building or extending the kingdom of God right now. What are some ways we can do that?
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Todd: That’s a great point. I think number one, we can just live for the Lord. God reigns as King in our hearts, so to speak, and where we… I remember distinctly, one time, going on a mission trip to the DR, and my pastor got hit real… At the end of every day, we would unpack what the Lord showed us that day and how we saw God move and stuff like that. And he shared a story where the country is so broken that he got there and he thought, “It is hopeless here. How is our small group making a difference? This is way bigger than we can fix.” And he said as soon as he was praying that and thinking that, he felt the Holy Spirit say, “The kingdom of God is with you. Where you go, you’re taking the kingdom of God with you.” So, in that sense, for sure, we’re salt and light. And that’s what we’re called to do, is bring the kingdom of God as much as we can wherever we can. So, I think that’s a key way of how we do it now, just through our influence, just through our pursuing God and following his ways. I think he’ll bring his kingdom in his way as we await that final kingdom.
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Jeff: Amen.
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Speaker 3: This podcast is part of the Edifi podcast network. Edifi is a faith-inspiring app that brings together thousands of the best Christian podcasts in one place for your listening enjoyment. Cut through the noise and grow your faith by diving into the world’s top Christian podcasts today. Download the Edifi app for free from the app store or Google Play, or by going to edifi.app. That’s E-D-I-F-I dot app.
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Jeff: I think about even my own conversion. I know you can identify with this as well, is that when Christ was shared with us, we were under the domain of darkness, the domain of another ruler, of ourself, of Satan and sin, and yet when Christ came in, he began to rule in our hearts. And now, in a sense, our hearts are like a kingdom that he’s ruling over. And when believers come together, that’s part of the kingdom of God that is ruling in their midst. And one day, all believers are going to be together in the millennial kingdom, and we’ll get a chance to really be directly under the righteous reign of Jesus Christ. And for us, in that day, we won’t have the sin nature to pull us the other way, which will be an incredible benefit of being in the millennial kingdom. So, really, I think the kingdom of God is something we should celebrate, Todd. It’s something we should pray for. The Bible says to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and I think that’s part of that whole prayer, as well. There won’t be that peace there until Christ is reigning from Jerusalem. So, it’s important for us to do that, but also to realize that we can have a part in extending the kingdom of God, and what a privilege to be able to have that kind of treasure in these earthen vessels.
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Todd: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Amen. And it should give us hope. I had breakfast with a good friend of mine who moved out of town a few years ago, and a good friend of mine, and he’s faced some really tough health trials. He’s got a rare disease that’s debilitating, and stuff like that. And if you ever think you’re having a bad day, meet with a friend who’s really going through something, who knows the Lord, and see the joy in the Lord that they have, and then it makes your problems seem this small.But he was sharing a story where he said he was talking to a family member about his trials, and he said he was trying to encourage them, and he happened to look down on the table and he saw one little fleck of pepper. And he said the Lord gave him this. He said, “You see that piece of pepper? That’s like our life right there. You see the rest of this giant table right here? That’s eternity. That’s what we got to look forward to. So, no matter how hard things get here, we have levels of better and better things coming. We get raptured. We get to be with the Lord. We get to serve him and then rule and reign with him in the millennial kingdom. Then we get to go to heaven with him for eternity and just explore the universe and explore the mysteries of God, and it never gets boring. It always gets better.”
|
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|
||||
So, the more we focus on that… Actually, the end of the last recording you and I did, we were talking about the end of America and how after we shut down recording, we started talking about how we really, as much as we love our country and want to see good things happen, it’s also a time when we can unplug from those things and really focus more on, our citizenship is not here. Our citizenship is in heaven, and we need to keep that front and center in these days in which we live.
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Jeff: Absolutely. And it’s just such a comfort to know that God really is in control. I mean, even though it doesn’t look like it at times, heaven’s not panicking. The angels aren’t running around trying to put out a fire somewhere. I mean, God is on his throne. Everything is going according to his plan, and he even uses, amazingly, the sinfulness of our own hearts to drive us to him, and he’ll use everything that’s going on in the world today to somehow give him glory in the end, but God is not panicking. We don’t have to dial 911 for him. He is already ahead of us, taking care of us, and looking out for his prophetic plan that’s going to be fulfilled in the end times.So, that’s a little bit about the kingdom of God. There’s obviously much more that we could unpack as we get into this thing. But want you guys to continue to send in your questions to us. Go to prophecyprospodcast.com, and you can… Actually, you can also not just send questions, you can also read the transcripts from all of our podcasts. And you may hear something, “Oh, gosh, I want to write that down. I want to copy that and share that with a friend.” Hey, just take them to the website there, or you can copy and paste it, and use things as quotes, that type of thing, if you want to help others understand a little bit more about Bible prophecy.
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So, that’s another great benefit our team has put together, and we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for helping us sponsor this podcast and for being behind it. Also, the great team at Unmutable that produces the podcast for us each time, and of course the Edifi network that we’re a part of right now, that’s helping us broadcast this to the world. So, Todd, till next time, we just want to thank our listeners for joining us and for being a part of the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
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Todd: That’s right.
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Hey. Thanks for listening to the Prophecy Pros Podcast. For more great podcasts that will build your faith and inspire you, head over to edifi.app… that’s E-D-I-F-I dot A-P-P… or search for the Edifi app in the Apple and Google Play stores.
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![[S2E1: Questions About the Rapture Pt. 1.mp3]]
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Todd: Hey, welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast. Today, we’re going to talk about many questions about the rapture. We tackled that a little bit in season one, but we’ve gotten so many questions from viewers and listeners that want to know more about the specific details of the rapture and how we can fully understand it based on what the Bible has to say.
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So, what is the big deal with the rapture? Why is it so important? Why is it something we have got to figure out for ourselves? Jeff, welcome to the podcast. I can’t wait to tackle this topic with you today.
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Jeff: Todd, I’m excited about season two here and just the topics we’re going to be covering here. It seems like right now there’s so much in the air about the end times and about the rapture and I’m getting a lot of questions. We’re getting a lot of questions about the rapture, why it’s such a big deal, why should I pay attention to it. I mean, there’s a lot of questions because a lot of confusion that people have about the rapture out there today, and so, I want to go ahead and just tackle some of these questions here. I guess maybe a good starting point would just be simply to say, I mean, are you guys just making a big deal about the rapture just because it’s kind of a sensational topic?
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I mean, it sounds like something people would be interested in and that’s why you’re covering it, or is the rapture really that big of an issue that we should focus time on and aren’t there other things we should be talking about? And, I guess, Todd, my response to that initially, would just be, when you think about the rapture, it’s kind of a game-changer in our history, in our destiny, in the end times because depending on your view on the rapture or depending on when the rapture actually occurs, that will determine whether or not you suffer during the tribulation period. And, Jesus, when He spoke of the tribulation, He launched into this apocalyptic vision we read about Matthew 24, Luke 21 and, of course, in Revelation 6-19, that it’s the most catastrophic, horrific time in the history of mankind, where God Himself is unleashing His wrath.So I guess the bottom line would just be whether or not you’re going to go through God’s wrath is affected by the rapture and the timing on the rapture. So I would say, yeah, it’s a huge game-changer. I mean, do you want the mark of the beast? Do you want the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments on your head? I mean, that’s a huge deal. So, I think it’s important that we address this. I mean, obviously, not in a caustic way, but just in a scriptural way to say, “I mean, yeah, I mean, Noah, do you really want to get on that ark or is the flood going to be that big of a deal?” kind of thing. So, I think it is a big deal and that’s one of the reasons why we should take time in these podcasts to address it.
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Todd: I agree. And, Jeff, I don’t know about you, but lately, I mean, even like the last year, I get two primary responses whenever I… Like I just recently put out a blog post that just says, “The seven key reasons to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture.” And then I followed it up because I thought of a few more. And then, like you said, every time I turn a page of scripture, I find another reason.
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So, there’s tons of reasons to believe it, but I got push back, and the two types of pushback that I get is one group of people saying it’s a peripheral issue, it’s secondary, it’s a distraction. And I don’t get that too often, but that comment usually comes from people who have never personally studied it for themselves, and they just go to the least common denominator that Jesus is coming back sometime, and that’s all we really need to know. But there’s so much… Why would he give us so much more than that if he didn’t want us to study it?
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And then the other more, honestly, just being real, the more caustic pushback I get are from some folks who push for a post-trib rapture. And, honestly, they’ll come at you pretty hard. Not all of them. I mean, they’re our brothers and sisters in Christ. We center on that, but several times I’ve had to just simply respond to a four-page email and say, “I’m sorry, I don’t have time to address everything you brought up here, but why don’t we spend this time reaching people for Jesus Christ instead of debating with each other? Obviously, we’re on different pages here.”
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So, we want to address some of that. We really want to tackle it head-on. We don’t want to avoid the issue because you and I, Jeff, both believe truth can be known here very clearly, and it’s very important in this day in particular, with COVID-19 and crazy stuff going on in our country. You and I both feel that between now and the election and beyond it’s going to get even crazier. So, believers who have never really studied it before, and this is the other form of emails I’m getting and comments on YouTube videos and that kind of thing is people that have never really studied it before are really, earnestly, honestly seeking truth, and those are the people that we’re really trying to do this podcast for. It’s not to debate or bash other Christians. There are people that really want to know, is it biblical to study about this? And what does the Bible say about the pre-tribulation rapture?
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Jeff: Yeah, that’s a great point, Todd, and I’m with you on that because when people bring up the issue of, well, it’s a peripheral theme, or peripheral subject, or whatever, I look at the New Testament and I see just the opposite. I see Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 when he’s telling them about the tribulation period, what’s going to happen there, he says, “Do you not remember that while I was still with you I was telling you these things?” And what that verse says is that the end times prophecy was a part of Paul’s foundational teaching and church-planting strategy because planting a church is not just putting up a sign and gathering a group of people together. As I heard John MacArthur say recently, “Church is not putting on a light and music show followed by a TED Talk,” but it’s the believers coming together to study the Word of God.And as I see what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians about the rapture, 1 Corinthians, we see in 2 Thessalonians, 1 Thessalonians 5:1, all these places, and Jesus in John 14. I mean, we see this issue of the rapture not being peripheral. In fact, if it is the blessed hope, the blessed hope that Titus 2:13 talks about, then it’s a huge thing. In fact, the early church, at the end of 1 Corinthians, Paul said “Maranatha,” which is an Aramaic term, meaning may the Lord come. And so, we believe that’s the way the church greeted one another as they came together, instead of, “Hey, how’s it going?” they said “Maranatha.” So these were always on their lips, always on their minds, is this confident and consistent expectation of the return of the Lord.
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So, without trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, I think scripture just logically balances it out and puts it in sort of the diet of what we should know about and what we should expect in the end times. So yeah, I get that too. I get the post-trib thing and that really does speak to the earlier point that I made about, yes, are we going to go through the tribulation or are we going to be delivered from the tribulation? And, of course, if you’re a post-tribulationist, that means post means after, means that we’re going to be raptured after the tribulation and immediately go to heaven and immediately come back down, which obviously leaves no time for the judgment seat of Christ, and why should we comfort one another with these words, as 1 Thess 4:18 says, if we’re going to go through all the tribulation? Now there’s no comfort there.
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Todd: No comfort at all. I mean, and you hinted at this earlier, but I think a lot of times people think the tribulation just going to be really bad, or especially the first half, oh, that’s just going to be man’s wrath. No, Jesus is the one opening the seals, and if you read carefully in several of the judgments, it even tells you what percentage of the population of earth will die. And by the time you get to the second half of the tribulation, I think it’s over three-quarters of the Earth’s population will have died or something along those lines. It is going to be horrific beyond explanation. Like you cannot even imagine. Matter of fact, if people are living in the tribulation era, I think their mindset is going to be, “I’m probably going to die. I’m probably going to be martyred,” but thank God, many of them will come to Christ during the tribulation period.
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Unfortunately, most of them will be martyred. And then, of course, by the end of the tribulation period, we’ll have the worst holocaust of the Jewish people, unfortunately, that we’ve ever seen. What we’ve already experienced with World War II will pale in comparison, unfortunately. But, at the end, all of the Jewish people who will survive will turn to Christ and accept him. So that’s a beautiful thing. But just piggybacking off what you said, if somebody just goes through the New Testament epistles with a highlighter and highlights everywhere where they’re told to watch, or wait, or wait with expectancy, or keep their candles lit, or stay awake, all of those things show that it was an eminent thing. The early church believed the Lord could literally return at any moment.
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And, we’re setting up where this is going to be a two-part podcast on this topic, so maybe right now, we’re kind of more setting up the groundwork. And then in the second one, we’ll answer some of the kind of peripheral questions, but they’re questions that everyone wants to know. But right now we’re just trying to really push the fact that it… Yes, it’s not a salvation issue, but it is a very, very important issue, and it frames how you view the end times and, honestly, they’re coming at us like a freight train. These are the questions people are asking. Am I going to be taken out of here before the tribulation period starts? And that doesn’t mean it’s not going to get tough before then, but it’s not going to be what we read about in Revelation 6-19 until after we’re out of here.
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Jeff: You’re absolutely right, Todd, because I was just… My mind just went to Matthew 24, talking about this the intensity of the tribulation and verse 21 says, “For then there will be a great tribulation,” speaking to the last three and a half years, “such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” And then he says, “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved, but for the sake of the elect, those days shall be cut short.” And it just speaks to the intensity of God’s wrath as it continues to build and build like birth pangs throughout the tribulation. Of course, we believe Revelation 6 at the beginning of the seal judgments, and that’s when the tribulation begins. It coincides with the peace treaty that Antichrist signs, Daniel 9:27. And that officially starts God’s countdown clock of that seven-year tribulation.
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When Jesus told his Jewish friends about the tribulation period, he told them to look for signs. They ask him, “What are going to be the signs?” So he gave them, he says, “Look for these signs.” But the church is never told to look for signs. We are only told to look for the blessed hope in Titus 2:13. So that’s really one of the basic, to me, one of the fundamental differences between what the church is told to do, we’re told to prepare for the coming of the Lord and the return of Christ to the rapture, but the tribulation saints and the Jews are told to look for these signs and, ultimately, the sign in the heavens in verse 30 of Matthew 24 says the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. And, of course, that’s the second coming of Christ.
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So, yeah. Not a peripheral issue, going to be an intense time, not something that anyone wants to go through. And also, as you said, people will say, “Well, the rapture is just a doctrine of convenience. It’s just an escape clause.” And my response to that would just simply be, “Well, if it’s an escape clause, then so was Noah and the ark. So was Lot and the angels who delivered him and basically escaped him from Sodom and Gomorrah before God’s judgment fell.” And as you mentioned, Todd, God nowhere says that we will not go through hard times. I mean, Jesus said in John 15, “If they hated me, they’re going to hate you.” I mean, period, paragraph. It’s going to happen. And as we ramp up closer to the time when Satan and gets his man of lawlessness ready for the world, the hatred against Christians is going to grow.
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We’re seeing that right now in many states across our country where they’re trying to shut down churches for worship. I mean, it’s an underground, low-grade hatred that people have for believers, but we’re not exempt from that. But we are exempt from God’s wrath. I mean, Jesus said in John 16 in the world, you’re going to have tribulation, but He says… He didn’t say you’re going to go through the tribulation. So, escape clause, well, yeah, we are going to escape, but it’s a deliverance from the wrath of God. And just from a doctrinal theological standpoint, just real quickly, I mean, I think it’s important for our listeners to know that God’s wrath was satisfied already on Christ at the cross, completely. And that’s why Jesus says, “It is finished,” that tetelestai cry on the cross was an accounting term that meant paid in full.
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And if God has already said, Jesus sacrifice is enough for me to forgive you of your sin, there’s not an ounce of condemnation or wrath left for us for as a judgment from God. That’s what Romans 5:9, Romans 8:1 says, “There’s therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” So, if Jesus has been satisfied, if He’s our propitiation for our sins as 1 John 2:2 says, then we’re okay. And we’re not going to experience the anger and wrath of God. In fact, all we’re going to experience is deliverance, ultimately, as He takes us up to heaven when He does unleash His wrath. So, very important issue and very important to know, from not from an emotional standpoint, Todd, but just from a doctrinal standpoint, because it’s the truth that drives us, not our emotions. So, do I want to get out of the tribulation? You better believe I do. But guess what? Fortunately, God has already said in His word that that’s going to happen.
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Todd: Exactly. That’s a great point. And that’s the pushback sometimes is like you said, isn’t it, is it a rescue clause or an escape clause? And I’ll say, yeah. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says, “And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He has raised from the dead, who rescues us from the coming wrath.” And I had someone ask me, “Well, how do we know that’s talking about the time of wrath, the tribulation period versus just God’s eternal wrath?” And, of course, it means both. Salvation rescues us from both of those forms of wrath. But, when you carefully look at scripture, especially all through the Old Testament, but the New Testament too, when it talks about God’s coming wrath or the day of the Lord, or those things, all of it points to a specific time period, Daniel’s 70th week, that it is specifically a time of God’s wrath, the day of the Lord. So yes, there’s a sense in which, of course, God will punish evil eternally, but all throughout the Old Testament and New Testament, it’s pointing to a specific time of God’s wrath on earth that we know as the tribulation period.
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Jeff: Absolutely. Yeah. And Paul’s theme to the Thessalonians, he goes over to chapter 5. I mean, he talks about as to the times and the epics, “You have no need of anything to be written to you, for you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.” Isn’t it interesting that he said to them, “You guys already know this.”
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Todd: You know full well.
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Jeff: You already know this full well. And the whole context of that passage is the day of the Lord, the tribulation period. So when he writes to them in the previous verses, right in chapter 4, the end of that chapter, he talks about the rapture being harpazo, being delivered from the tribulation and the wrath that’s coming, we’ll be caught up to meet the Lord, comfort one anothers, and then he talks about the day of the Lord. So the context is, obviously, that wrath that’s going to happen at the end of the age.We, I think, sometimes don’t have a construct in our minds to understand what this going to be like. God is a furious God. He’s a wrathful God. And there’s coming a time when His patience for planet earth as a whole is going to be up, and He’s going to unleash these judgments. So why would He want His precious bride to go through those type of horrific happenings that are going to come upon the earth? So, we’ll kind of touch back on some of these things, but I think that’s sort of an umbrella of kind of how we begin this discussion is yes, it’s important. Yes, it’s in the Bible.
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It is not just a doctrine of escapism, but a doctrine that is taught in the scripture. But, you know, Todd, people come up with a lot of other questions about the rapture that sometimes you think, “Well, does the Bible really address this and other objections that people have?” One of them is asking the question, “Will all believers go up in the rapture or just the Christians who are awake?” People will reference Matthew 25 and the 10 virgins and 5 were left behind, is that talking about people… Christians or whatever. So will Christians who are not living for Christ at the time, which at any given moment, a lot of Christians are not living for Christ, right? What about this partial rapture theory? You got any thoughts on that?
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Todd: Yeah. I mean, in one of the premier passages where Paul talked about the rapture, he said, “We shall all be changed.” All means all. And, like you mentioned earlier, our salvation is not based on our works, our effort. For most of us, I’ll speak for myself personally, after I became a Christian, I was a very immature Christian for many years. It took a long time for the Lord to really get ahold of me, to where I was fully dedicated to Him. If I would have looked at myself in those early years, I would have been like, “Well, he’s probably not getting caught up in the rapture.” But, thank God, it’s not based on our works. Ephesians 2:8-9. It’s not based on our works. None of us can boast that we’re more of a super Christian than somebody else.
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And, actually, you and I have talked about this before, just one-on-one, that the rapture is part of our salvation. We have been saved from the penalty of our sins right now as we live and try to grow in Christ, we’re being saved from the power of sin as we become more and more like Christ. But one day we will physically be saved from the presence of sin, and that’s when we get our new glorified, spiritual bodies that have no sin nature and we’re taken out of here, this sinful place. So, and that’s what you alluded to this earlier, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, that was Paul’s believers 101 class. Those were the earliest epistles in the New Testament, and he wrote it to some brand new Christians. And as you mentioned, he said, “Did I not tell you these things? You know full well.” He had talked to them in-depth about the rapture and the day of the Lord and that kind of thing as soon as they were believers. So it’s a very important part of our actual salvation.
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Jeff: Absolutely. And I love the verse you quoted from 1 Thess, oh, excuse me, 1 Corinthians 15 about we shall all be changed. How much more clear? If that’s the only verse we had, then that’s all we need. But he also says in 1 Thessalonians 4, he says that those who are dead in Christ obviously will rise first. Then it says, “We who are alive and remain, shall be caught up together.” He doesn’t say some of us who are alive and remain. I mean, there’s no indication in those verses that there’s anything but a full and complete rapture. There’s no hierarchy of salvation or of the rapture.
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And I think back to just, again, from just a doctrinal theological standpoint, Todd, back in Romans 8, I mean, there’s this chain of unbroken salvation. We see where it says in verse 30, it says, “Those whom He predestined, those He called. And those who He called, He also justified. And those He justified, He also glorified.” I mean, there’s no break in that. If you’re justified, meaning you’re saved, you’re going to be glorified, meaning you’re going to have your salvation complete. And so, yeah, there’s this unbroken chain of salvation from eternity past to eternity future, and God is so gracious to allow us to be a part of that. And I think that really is, I mean, hello? Aren’t we comforted by this? That’s the whole point of us knowing this doctrine is to not only be prepared, but also to be comforted.
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And I think that gives us kind of a great starting point. Gosh, there’s so much more we could talk about this.
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Todd: I was going to say, 20 minutes went by really quick. You know it.
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Jeff: It’s crazy. But here’s the thing. The thing that really… I think just inspires me, Todd, it’s just knowing that there are Christians across the world that are now, all of a sudden, beginning to turn pages in their Bibles. You hear those Bible pages turning and, all of a sudden, they’re starting to read books like mine and yours, and we’re getting emails from people saying, “I have never heard this in church before, ever.” And I think a lot of it has to do with just who the pastors are and that kind of thing, or maybe they’re not equipped, or maybe they’re afraid. Who knows? But right now is prime time to be studying these things because we need to be looking up and looking for the coming of the Lord.
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So we’re going to pick it back up in the next podcast because there’s so much more and, obviously, we’re not going to blast every question that there is about the rapture, but we’re going to cover some of the ones that we’ve been getting. But I want our listeners to know that this is meant to be a comfort and encouragement. It’s meant to build you up, to build your faith strong.
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And that’s why we’re here in the Prophecy Pros podcast to give you clarity, confidence, and courage, and hope as you move forward in the future. And Todd, I’m excited because God is, for whatever reason, God’s hand of favor is on this Prophecy Pros podcast ministry. And he is expanding that we’ve been getting tons of emails, people saying, “Hey, where’s season two? We’re missing you guys.” So here we are. We’ll get this thing blasted out to you, but also, and we’ll be telling you more about this in the future, but the Lord is planning some amazing things for the Prophecy Pros. Things that are going to get us out into America and plan some things for you out there, and some things that are going online, some video and stuff going on, but we’ll be telling you more about that in the future.
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But go to prophecyprospodcast.com and make sure that you subscribe, and please share this with your friends. Tell them, “Hey, here’re two crazy guys that are talking about prophecy, but they’re really, they’re basing this stuff in scripture and it’s really allowing me to understand a lot more about God’s prophetic plan.” So, prophecyprospodcast.com, and we’ll see you next time. It’s going to be more discussion on the rapture and why it’s so important for our lives today.
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Todd: Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe if you have not done so already. And if you like what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review. That does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot. For more resources, or to ask questions, or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com and a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
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![[S2E2: Jan Markell: Globalism, Lawlessness, and Delusional Thinking.mp3]]
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Jeff: Welcome to The Prophecy Pros Podcast. I’m Jeff Kinley, along with Todd Hampson and we’re excited about season two. Got a lot of fantastic guests on the show today and today is no exception to that. Jan Markel is our guest today. And if you’re a fan of Bible prophecy, then you know Jan’s name. But just in case you don’t know who Jan Markel is, let me give you just a quick little brief bio sketch.
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Jan was saved under the Jewish evangelist Hyman Appelman when she was a child. And in her early ministry years, she became a part of the Messianic movement working for pro-Israel agencies and for Jewish evangelism ministries. But in 1982, God led Jan to incorporate Olive Tree Ministries. And He has led her to write some eight books with prominent Christian publishing houses. She’s also produced dozens of DVDs, traveled across America as a speaker. And in 2000, Jan launched a radio branch of the ministry, which was picked up for national syndication called Understanding the Times Radio. Of course, Todd and I both have both been on her show many times. Really have a great time when we talk to her. But today her show is heard in some 900 stations across the country and the audience continues to grow, 92,000 subscribers on YouTube. So you need to check her out on YouTube. That’s really where a lot of people listen to the program. But she also puts on the largest prophecy conference that I’m aware of in North America called Understanding the Times Conference every fall. And so we’re just happy to have Jan on the show. She’s a great friend of both of us and we appreciate her ministry. Jan, thank you so much for being on the show today.
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||||
Jan: Well, thank you so much for having me. And by the way, a huge disappointment here in 2020 as we had to cancel our Understanding the Times 2020 for September for all the obvious reasons and that’s a heartbreak to me. But anyway, we’re in strange times.
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Jeff: Well, we really are. And what’s really crazy is just sort of the ripple effects that this has had on the body of Christ and the way that I think some people are beginning to turn the corner to say, “You know what? I think enough is enough and we’re ready to kind of get back to the Lord’s work again, regardless of what consequences.” And, of course, in California, there’s a huge battle going on right now with John MacArthur’s church and other churches that have told them they cannot meet. They’ve threatened to cut their power, threatened to arrest him for holding services. I know there was a pastor in Chicago, South side of Chicago, the police showed up this past week, this African American church, banging on the doors demanding that they stop meeting. So yeah, perilous times, strange times that we’re living in, but we’re thrilled to have you on the show today and to get your perspective on some things. Todd.
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Jan: Sure.
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Todd: Yeah. And I just echo what Jeff said, we can’t thank you enough for being on the show. For me personally, it’s great. Great to connect with you here. You’ve been a huge influence on me personally with my end times ministry and my end times ministry understanding. So I just thank you so much for your courage and for your steadfastness and how long you’ve been doing this and in how many different ways. So I really appreciate it.It’s been a blessing. And speaking of years, 2020 has been a zinger. I mean, we’ve been watching prophecy for years and it seems like the past, I don’t know, 5 or 6 or even 10 years it’s escalated more and more each year. But 2020, I can barely keep up each day and I know you feel the same. And you have a segment that you write each month or a few times a year saying, “I never thought I’d see the day when…” And you capture so many of the confusing and crazy events that line up with Bible prophecy. So with that long intro, how have you seen prophetic developments ramp up like never before in this year of 2020?
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Jan: Well, I think just in five, perhaps six months, my goodness, certainly America has changed, but the world has changed. I’m programming this weekend kind of emphasizing the influence of well, kind of the new big brother, certainly in America, other parts of the world as well. My goodness, contact tracing. I mean, give me a break. You’re going to have those we associate with traced and we’re traced who we’ve seen and interacted with. What about forced vaccines? This weekend on radio I play a clip of Alan Dershowitz, it’s probably a month old clip now where he says the government has every right to bring you into a doctor’s office, then a plunge a needle into your arm. That would be for a forced vaccine. I mean, I never thought I would see the day, I’d live a long enough to see the day when not only would government overreach like this, but this has all happened, gentlemen, in less than half a year because it really began in March of 2020.
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Todd: That’s amazing. It reminds me, Jane, of when Jesus talked about the early part of the tribulation period, and he says there, he says, “All these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.” And it seems like right now we’re seeing the birth pangs of the birth pangs begin. We’re not in the tribulation obviously, but we are seeing a lot of stage setting prophetic developments and things. Some things are in their embryonic form. Some things are in their later development form, but we are seeing these things happen. With that as we’re sort of looking at the landscape as people who kind of keep our finger on the pulse of what’s going on in culture and the world, tell us from your perspective, have you seen a rise or resurgence in the interest in Bible prophecy in the past few years? And if so, why?
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Jan: Well, to be honest, one of the greatest heartaches to me… And let me just back up and go back to where I was influenced by eschatology. As a fairly young believer in the 1970s, somebody gave me a copy of Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth, which I devoured in a day or so. And Hal told me personally, because I brought him to the Twin Cities twice, he simply wanted to make the doctrine of the last days, he wanted to put it in more simple language, which he succeeded at doing with his Late Great Planet Earth and some subsequent books as well. But that book so influenced me. At the same time I was reading that book in the mid ’70s, I then took my first trip to Israel and kind of the rest is history. I mean, everything in my life was turned upside down by those two events.
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And then I came home from the trip to Israel and just coincidentally and probably a God coincidence the organization known as Jews for Jesus was ministering in my church in Minneapolis and I went up and talked to them again. And that’s an organization at that time of young people. And I was very young at the time. And I said to them, “I think I need to be a part of your organization.” And they said, “Why don’t you to come to our summer outreach in New York City next summer and we hand out 2 million gospel tracks on the streets of New York City,” which I did and sort of the rest is history.
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But going back now more directly to your question is I would love to say that over that time period, which is a lot of years, that I have seen an intense increase in eschatology. And I think I did in the ’70s and ’80s and even the ’90s thanks to the Left Behind series. But then starting in about 2000, roughly, came the church seeker sensitive movement and the seeker sensitive leaders and pastors said, “We don’t go here. This is going to make people uncomfortable. Besides, we don’t know for sure which theology and eschatology is proper so the best idea would be the set it aside.” That means we’ve had probably over 20 years of wishy-washy in the pulpit as it concerns end times. And that means we’ve had a literal generation of people being confused and told that this topic we’re talking about right now is not all that important, it’s confusing, we can’t know for sure, let’s leave it alone. And so we’ve got people for the last 20 years who are not gaining any interest in this. It’s falling off dramatically every day.
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Todd: Yeah. That’s so sad. And as we look at what’s going on, Jan, in the church today, like you said, there’s a lot of self help sermons, a lot of feel good sermons. A lot of sermons even right now on how to deal with anxiety and depression, all the things that we’re going through. But it’s very interesting to me. I remember what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:5 where he just told them about the apostasy and the antichrist, he’s about to tell him about what’s going to happen in the tribulation. And then he says, “Don’t you remember that while I was with you I was telling you these things?”
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Jan: Well, I mean, I would love to see… Yeah, I headquarter in the Twin Cities and I think I know almost every evangelical church in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area. And I can tell you that out of probably 10,000 churches there may be a maximum of six that would be covering the topics we’re talking about today. So you consider how many people are in those churches that, again, are clueless about the issues we’re talking about unless they tap into a radio program like mine, a podcast of yours, one of you gentlemen, your books, which are fantastic. But somebody’s probably got to guide them to these things because again, the churches might not do that. Thankfully, what I am so grateful for is the online community, the electronic community, which is making up for the lack in our pulpits. And because of the electronic, be it YouTube, Facebook Live, a lot of these venues, the podcast community, even my Understanding the Times Radio, which airs on a lot of radio stations, but also electronically. Folks, if they want to find this, they can find it, but they got to search a little bit.
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Todd: Yeah, I agree. And I think you and I had talked about this before, Jan, where it’s almost… Well, it definitely lines up with the Bible prophecy and it probably is part of the falling away that just at the time when we have more of a chance for us being the generation that’s going to see the Lord’s return, all the signs are screaming at us and at this very same time almost nobody’s paying attention it seems. But it seems like God has strategically placed people almost on a grassroots effort and people that are so passionate about it like you and Jeff and myself where we’re just going to find a way to get the message out there. And it’s almost a calling as kind of a burden, I guess, in that although we’re very passionate about it, it’s not like we asked for it. It’s like we just see it so clearly and feel so compelled that we have to share the message. And you’ve been doing that for 40 years, Jan, and I just thank you. I can only imagine the flack you’ve caught at different times. Actually, I’ve heard some of the flack you’ve caught from some prominent Christian leaders at different times, and I just thank you for your courage.
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And one of the signs we’re seeing is just lawlessness and delusional thinking. 2 Timothy 3 if you read the first five verses of that, it’s like a mirror of the daily news, especially right now. And you’ve seen that lawlessness and delusional thinking in the wake of the horrific death of George Floyd, which of course, that was a horrible event, but obviously there’s been a lot of other evil forces behind it causing the lawlessness and the anarchy and all that kind of stuff. And you live kind of in ground zero of that. You live in Minneapolis so you kind of have a front row view of that. Tell us a little bit about that, what you’ve seen and also how that lines up with Bible prophecy.Jan: Man, I think the lawlessness is one of the key signs of the times that has manifested here in 2020, not that we didn’t have lawlessness before. I mean, in October of 2019, President Trump came to Minneapolis. And I consider Minneapolis-St. Paul the Heartland, I mean sort of like Omaha and some of these cities in the Midwest that perhaps are not quite like on the East coast and West coast. But even last October Antifa completely tore up parts of downtown Minneapolis because of Trump’s visit here. But little did I think that a few months later in May of 2020 that because of the George Floyd incident that Minneapolis and St. Paul… First of all, a five mile section of Minneapolis is completely burned to the ground. And I’m certainly not defending whatsoever the actions of the one police officer, but now that video of the entire incident has been released and it shows that Floyd was acting up long before the police even stepped in and he was talking about being unable to breathe before they put him on the ground there because he was filled with fentanyl.
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But having said all that, it’s still a terrible ordeal and terrible ordeal for Mr. Floyd. But my point is that as a result of that terrible incident, five miles of Minneapolis is burned to the ground and a great section of St. Paul as well. So I have seen mankind at his worst up close and personal. And not personally because I wasn’t in that neck of the woods, I’m in the suburbs, but I’ve seen enough video images to see the demonic hatred and behavior that is going on in this lawless community be it Black Lives Matter, which is totally marked as communist, godless organization that’s committed to the destruction of the family of America, a lot of things. Antifa is the same. And in my case in Minneapolis, they destroyed the section of the… particularly Minneapolis, but St. Paul as well… where low income people are, and they destroyed all their shopping places. So if Black Lives Matter is all about African-Americans, my goodness, they destroyed their grocery stores, their pharmacies, et cetera. And so there’s some tremendous irony to that.
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But here’s the followup to all of that because following the terrible ordeal, that was the last week of May 2020, then what did our brilliant city council come up with? And you talk about end time strong delusion, I think this is the epitome of end times strong delusion. Our city council voted unanimously to get rid of our police department. Well, now how much sense does that make?
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Todd: None.
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Jan: But that’s going on all over America. But can you imagine getting rid of the one outfit that’s committed to pushing back against this kind of violence? So again, you’ve got the strong delusion, you got the lawlessness. Here’s what you’ve got gentlemen, you’ve got the setup for a man with a plan who’s going to step in and say, “I can fix all this.”
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Todd: Absolutely. It’s setting it all up for that. And that’s the unfortunate thing. And this connects to the next question I’m going to ask is a lot of people don’t realize it’s not just political. And like you said, the phrase Black Lives Matter is different than the organization. A lot of people don’t even realize the organization the founders say they are trained fascists and their goal is to take down the country, but they’ve hijacked compassion for other things that people want to stand up for and they’re using that as leverage. But really what’s behind all of that, and this is what I try to get across to people… And actually just to piggyback off what you said, I have a friend that lives in Minneapolis and he has some family that lived downtown there. They literally had to leave at 3:00 in the morning because early on when it first started getting lawless, and they said the same exact thing. It was so demonic, so evil, so overrun with evil that they were the scariest they’ve ever been and literally had to leave their house in the middle of the night and have not been back since. So the people that are there like yourself and others who live in there, the rest of the country doesn’t realize how bad it is there and in Seattle and some other places. So it’s crazy.
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Jan: That’s right. And a police precinct was burned to the ground and our mayor who is, I call him pajama boy, he’s a 30-something mayor who is clueless as to what he’s doing. But our mayor pleaded with our governor to step in as the police precinct was being burned down and our governor said, “Just let it burn.” So this is Democrat Party politics. It’s blue state politics. And as Curtis Bowers said on my radio program here recently, he’s a communist expert as he’s trying to expose what Marxists have been doing in America for 100 years, if you’re in a blue state, get out. You have no protection. It is unsafe, totally unsafe. And the politicians are going off the rails with their delusions. So these are challenging times, that’s all I can say. But the Bible never said that the last days would be a picnic. The Bible says that the times would be perilous. And I think the key verse or verses would be in Romans 1 that God’s going to give these people over to a reprobate mind and that’s what’s going on.
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Todd: Lines up with Bible prophecy and it lines up with another topic and I’d love for you to share a little bit about this because I know you’ve done some in depth research for years to where people used to think it was complete conspiracy theory, but now it’s fully out in the open. And that’s the topic of globalism. I mean, the world economic forum right now is calling for a global reset of the economy in January ’21. So it’s out in the open. So how does globalism and this push towards a one world government and all that play into Bible prophecy and the destruction we’re seeing here in America?
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Jan: Well, and I have. And I’ve commented and done radio on that. And let’s keep in mind that the globalists never let a crisis go to waste and they’re always looking for a crisis. And the one they picked out about 10 years ago was global warming and climate change. Well, that didn’t work out real well. And how convenient that here in 2020 this coronavirus came along. And the uniqueness about the coronavirus is that it’s not a local problem. It’s not an American problem. It’s not a Western society problem. Corona has hit almost 200 countries and the globalists have realized this is the crisis they’re not going to let go to waste. How are we going to conquer this crisis if we don’t come together as a global one world community, one world government, one world, perhaps even one world ruler? You and I know it will be the antichrist, whether they do or not, I don’t know. And they are in a panic. These globalists are in a panic. And apparently their man, at least in America, is Joe Biden, which is just a terrifying thought when we watch this gentleman as he commentates daily.
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But I think this is the perfect storm, the perfect storm that came along in 2020. I mean, was it manmade? I mean, I think the virus was manmade in China. But here again, it’s hit almost 200 countries and it’s brought every one of those countries to a standstill and the globalists are going to step in and they have because they never let a crisis go to waste.
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Todd: And that’s a key point. And even a lot of believers I’ve talked to don’t realize that there’s something like that much bigger behind the scenes that driving a lot of the chaos we’re seeing. And that’s exactly it.
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Jan: Absolutely. I mean, it is a global conspiracy. Now, do these guys sit around in dark rooms, smoke filled rooms, discussing how they’re going to implement the antichrist plan? I don’t know. Probably not because I suspect they’re godless and they certainly don’t know the Bible. But I think they understand that the world needs a one world system to bring all of these problems under control. And man, did they get handed one on a silver platter in actually end of 2019, late December 2019. And then it blossomed of course in January, February 2020.
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Todd: Yeah. Like you said, I think most of them actually think they’re doing a good thing. I think there’s some that are overtly evil and they may not understand all the ramifications, but I think most of them think they’re actually doing something good and it’s a humanistic way of looking at the current problem. And the Bible predicted centuries ago exactly what it was going to look like and here we are.
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Jan: Yeah, I think so too. I think it’s a little bit like a lot of socialists. Socialists think that the plan of socialism is going to equalize everything and it’s basically a good thing. I mean, just read history and see the bloody history of socialism and communism. But I think they’re thinking this is all for the good of mankind. But again, it’s going to take a single government and that’s a whole nother message, how globalism has mushroomed here in the last 100 years or so and particularly in the last 30, 40 years.But we live in absolutely stunning times and I just encourage your listeners to be like the Sons of Issachar who understood the times and not be like most in the church who are not even wanting to because it’s too frightening so they’re going to run the other direction instead of trying to understand the times. And there’s a little remnant out there. I don’t know what. I know I think Bill Canuck suggests it’s about 5% of the church that desperately wants to understand the times and get everybody else to understand the times and become Watchmen on the Wall. And I just pray this little percentage grows and grows and grows.
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Todd: Me too. And with that, I know we’ve talked about a lot of scary things. For you and I we’ve studied it and we have the context, but we always try to, like you do on your show. Actually you have a phrase you use that the world’s not falling apart, it’s falling into place. As we close out this episode, what bit of hope can you share with our listeners during this unprecedented year of 2020?
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Jan: Well, we serve a God who knows the future, who orchestrated the future, who outlined the future in the Bible, who wants us to understand the future, who wants us to be like the Sons of Issachar who understood the times and knew what Israel should do. So I think the most encouraging thing of all is that we serve a God who has everything under control. We serve a God who answers prayer. We serve a God who wants to clue us in ahead of time and He’s done that through the Bible. And I know we’ve got all sorts of extra biblical. We get people coming up with dreams and visions and all of this that talk about the future.
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And I urge people to be cautious about that because it can be subjective when we’ve got the Bible that outlines everything that is to come, outlines it in detail. And what a privilege the three of us have to be able to just open the pages of God’s word and there is all outlined the things that are happening now and the things that are yet to come and that much of what’s to come the church is going to escape, thank God because of the pre-tribulation rapture, which is another program. But the church is not destined for God’s wrath. The church is destined certainly for man’s wrath and Satan’s wrath, and we see that going on in various parts of the world. But gentlemen, we are seeing man’s wrath and Satan’s wrath against the church in America now as we speak. So that’s a new equation that’s come along here in the last three, four or five months. But again, we will never see God’s wrath, and praise the Lord for that.
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Todd: Amen. And Jeff and I do actually have a couple programs on that and we unpack it pretty clearly and like you, catch some flack for taking such a bold stand. But to me, it is crystal clear in scripture that we are raptured prior to those horrific things, and thank God we are.
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And lastly, is there anything… Thank you so much for sharing that hope with our listeners. So y’all heard it here, study Bible prophecy. It’s not going to scare you. It’s going to prepare you. It’s going to help equip you to see with clarity what’s going on in the world right now. And Jan, if you would, before we shut down this program or end this program, could you share with our listeners where they can learn more about you and your ministry and your radio program?
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Jan: Well, thank you. Just find me at olivetreeviews.org. It’s Olive Tree Ministries, but olivetreeviews.org. And I air on about 900 radio stations. And let me just share with you real briefly, gentlemen, because we posted our current radio program on coronavirus and some various aspects of it. We post that, our radio program to YouTube every Friday, that radio programming airs heavily Saturday, Sunday. And I just got a notice as we were talking… We posted the program to YouTube on Corona this morning about 9:30 or so. As we were talking, I got a notice from YouTube that they took the program down because it violates their community standards, which is a heartbreak to us. We spend two and a half days making the YouTube. We put video in it. We put images in it and it reaches a huge electronic audience. It was just taken down by YouTube, but that’s our new world. You can’t tell the truth on the electronic media. You can’t do it.
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Todd: Wow. That is heartbreaking and not surprising. So again, I appreciate your courage and we will do our best to help get the word out on that episode. If we can’t do it by YouTube, we’ll let other people know in anyway we can.
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Jan: Thank you.
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Todd: You bet.
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Jan: They can find it on my website starting at midnight tonight, olivetreeviews.org and go to radio. You can find it, the visual form on His Channel, hischannel.com and various other places, oneplace.com. But YouTube, no way. They will not tolerate the truth there.
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Todd: Oh, that’s a good point. Hischannel.com. They definitely will have it up there. And Jeff had a little bit of technical difficulty, so he dropped off, but he wanted to tell me to thank you. And I want to thank our listeners for joining us. Again, you heard all the information about where to find out about Jan’s ministry. If you want to find out more about the Prophecy Pros Podcast or Jeff’s ministry or my ministry and to find out when new podcast episodes are coming out, go to prophecyprospodcast.com, and you can find everything you need to there. And be sure to tune in next week on the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
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Jeff: Hey, for more resources and show notes, how to contact us, how to ask questions, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. Hey, we’ll see you next episode. Or maybe not. Maybe we’ll see in the air.
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![[S2E3: Questions About the Rapture Pt. 2.mp3]]
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Jeff: Welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast, I’m Jeff Kinley along with my good friend, Todd Hampson and we’re the Prophecy Pros. We’re bringing to you clarity, confidence and hope from the scriptures regarding Bible prophecy in the end times, because now more than ever, we need a word from God.
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So many people right now, Todd are so confused, but at the same time, so curious about what’s happening in the world. And a lot of these questions are being geared towards the rapture. Maybe the bride of Christ is beginning to feel something here. Maybe there’s a stirring in our collective soul as Jesus’ bride. And we’re thinking about, is our bridegroom about to come back for us? So, we’re getting a lot of questions about that. And I think one of the biggest ones we talked about last time is, what about this partial rapture? Is that going to happen? And we addressed that. But here’s another question, Todd, that we can take a stab at here because a lot of people are looking at their small children and they’re going, “Whoa, wait a minute, what if the rapture came today? And what about my unborn child? I’ve got a daughter-in-law who’s pregnant right now. I’ve got some grandkids who are young. So, what about them? I mean, what are some thoughts there?” We might be able to shed a little bit of light on that subject.
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Todd: Yeah, that’s a great connected question to that last one from the previous episode where we tackled this, and we actually got a really heartfelt question from a listener on that very topic. And you and I both believe in the scriptural evidence for this, that at the moment of the rapture, anyone, whether it’s a child born or unborn, or somebody who maybe mentally has not been able to understand the rapture, somebody with some special needs. But children who are innocent and don’t fully understand good and evil and what it means to become a Christian, you and I believe all of them will be taken in the rapture.
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And we get precedent from this when David’s child with Bathsheba died once he stopped fasting and morning, they said, “Why are you not morning anymore now that the child… You mourned while he was alive, but now that he’s died, you’re not mourning.” And he said, “I know that one day I will go to him, but he will not be able to come to me.” So, that coupled with just what we know about God’s character of protecting the innocent and mercy and grace and everything about God’s character, you and I believe that every child who is under that age… And there’s no age of accountability, I think it’s different for each person, and I think God knows whether someone is mature enough to understand that, whether they’ve heard the gospel before or not, and that kind of thing. So, there’s some mystery to it, we can’t wrap our heads around it fully, but you and I both believe that children who are innocent and others who can’t understand the gospel will be taken in the rapture as well.
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Jeff: Absolutely. And I think that also applies to those children who have been aborted, some 58 million children across the world who have been aborted, that God’s mercy… There’s nothing that God hates more than the shedding of innocent blood. And so, that obviously applies to them as well. Our God is a merciful God. He is a great and loving God, and I believe he’s going to account for all those children. And how God works all that out is beyond our understanding. It’s like Isaiah 55 says, “His thoughts are above our thoughts, his ways are above our ways.” So, I don’t pretend to figure out everything that God does, but certainly I am leaning on that promise that God’s love and care and his mercy will take care of those kids there. What about this, Todd, who’s going to hear this trumpet?
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And let’s talk about the trumpet of God for a second, because I had a guy come up to me at a conference, I think you and I were both in this conference speaking, and he comes up to me and he leans into my ear, and of course, anytime that happens, I know there’s no telling what’s going to come out of this person’s mouth, but he leans into my ear and he says, “Hey,” he says, “Have you noticed that Donald Trump is in the Bible?” I was like, “What are you talking about?” He says, “Well, it says in 1st Corinthians 15:52, ‘At the last trump that’s when we’re going to be raptured.'” And I kind of looked at him like, “Is this a far side cartoon joke or something?” I’m like, “What are you saying?” Then he says, “Well, then his middle name is also John, and of course that’s John the Baptist was the forerunner to Jesus.”
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||||
So, I thought, “Well, do you have anything about his hair? That would also tell us that he’s also some sort of prophet,” kind of thing. But the way I responded to that, well, I want to talk about this trumpet here, I said, “Well, number one, that word trump is the King James translation of the word trumpet. So, he’s not Donald Trumpet, that kind of thing.” I said, “It’s an actual trumpet that’s actually going to be sounded at the rapture.” And I said, “If he’s the last trump, where was the first trump? The first Donald Trump kind of thing.” So, people try to find all sorts of little things to try to tie in what we call newspaper exegesis, or really eisegesis, which is reading in things into the Bible that aren’t even there. But let’s talk about this last trumpet, who’s going to hear this trumpet that we hear about the rapture?
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||||
Todd: That’s a great question. And this is something that I’ve studied and wrestled with, and we should mention that a lot of the questions we’re going to tackle today are a little more speculative, but not out of our own brains. We have scriptural reasons to approach them the way they are. But they’re also maybe not as clear as some of the other key things about the rapture. But personally, I wrestle with that, I don’t know if it’s going to be a situation where like Paul, when he was knocked off the horse, everyone else knew something else was going on, but he could hear it, but they couldn’t. Or if it’s going to be what I believe is the first trumpet, back in the Old Testament, the first time that God in Exodus 19, when he called them to give them the law and it says, “They heard the voice of a trumpet.”
|
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|
||||
So, I don’t know, I’m curious, what do you think, Jeff? Do you think the whole world will hear the trumpet or we’ll all hear it, but somehow like when Jesus said, “My sheep know me and they hear my voice,” maybe it’s a noise that everyone will hear, but only believers will realize what it actually is.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. I mean, the Bible doesn’t specifically tell us in parenthesis, when Paul says, “Oh, and by the way only believers will hear the…” Kind of thing, because it just wasn’t an issue with them, that just wasn’t something they were thinking about. But over in 1st Thess 4:16, he says, “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God.” And then it says, the very next phrase, “And the dead in Christ will rise first.” So, presumably, the dead in Christ will hear this trumpet. In other words, their bodies that have long since decayed are going to respond to a voice, they’re going to respond to a trumpet sound. So, they’re going to hear it somehow, we also presume that those who… It said, next verse, “We who are alive and remain shall be caught up.” So, presumably we’re going to hear, I mean, why would we not hear the trumpet? I mean-
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yeah, I think we’ll hear it for sure.
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Jeff: … So, the Old Testament, when the people of God were gathered together, they blew a trumpet for a gathering reasons, for the purpose of gathering. So, now as to whether or not the rest of the world is going to hear this trumpet, I would tend to say, no, and I don’t have a Bible verse that just says nobody else is going to hear this. We know in Revelation 1:7 when Jesus Christ returns physically, the second coming, it says, “Every eye will see him.” So, we know from that verse that, that’s going to be a global event in terms of just the visibility, but in terms of the audible here with the trumpet of God, I mean, Bible’s silent, but if they heard of the trumpet, how would that play into people’s reaction in the tribulation?Because you hear this when you read in beginning Revelation six, the judgments of God, sealed trumpet and bowl judgments, it says, “They know that these judgments are from God.” In fact, they began to blaspheme God and curse God because of his judgments. So, you could use that argument to say, well, they’re going to hear the trumpet, they’re going to know it’s the rapture and then they’re going to just be even more angry at God, kind of thing. On the other hand, which is where I’ve written about in the past and you have too, is that people will be more perplexed about the disappearance of who knows how many people on planet earth. And they’ll have to come up with speculative theories because they’ll have darkened minds and don’t understand the rapture.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
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|
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Jeff: So, I tend to think that it’s going to be only believers, and in another passage here too, when you go back to Matthew chapter 25, and this is not talking about the rapture, I’ll be very clear about that, but it is talking about a wedding custom there in Matthew chapter 25 when the 10 virgins are getting ready. And it says here, “But at midnight,” in verse six, “There was a shout, ‘Behold the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'” So, we know that, that voice was directed only at a specific group of people. So, it was to announce that the bridegroom had come to snatch away his bride. Well, I think that’s the same thing we’re seeing in 1st Thess four, is that, that shout, that voice, the archangel, that trumpet of God, if I were a betting man, I would bet on that, that voice and that trumpet only being heard by believers. So, that might be a long answer for a short question, but yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: No, that was good. And I do believe that we’re the bride of Christ and I believe the rapture is that moment when the bridegroom comes. So, maybe that shout will be, “Come forth, the bridegroom’s here.”
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, yeah.
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||||
|
||||
Todd: Or a combination of that, and like for the dead in Christ, when Jesus told Lazarus, “Come forth,” so maybe it’s going to be kind of a dual shout, because he’s raising the dead and he’s calling the bride to come be with him. And actually that lines up perfectly with the Jewish wedding traditions, lines up perfectly with the first and second coming and him… And that kind of ties back into another question we talked about, just we hit on it on the last episode, in that, some people thinking that you have to go through the tribulation. And what I didn’t get a chance to mention in that last one was, when I say, well, why would God want us to go through the tribulation? The key reason that I hear people say is, so he can purify his bride.
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||||
And again, that just does not line up with a loving God. What kind of loving God is going to ask a woman to marry him, go away, build a beautiful house for her, wait for his father to send him to go pick her up, but then before he takes her back home, he puts her in an alley and lets her get beat up for seven days. It just does not line up at all with God’s character or Jewish wedding traditions, which Jesus himself refers to many times. So, I wanted to be sure I mentioned that.
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Jeff: No, that’s a great point, Todd, because it’s worth camping off just a second, because I think that people confuse, you to talk about purifying the bride, yes, we are purified through persecution and we’re purified through tribulation and trouble and martyrdom and that type of thing, but we’re not purified through punishment from God-
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|
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Todd: That’s right.
|
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Jeff: … Through God’s wrath, that’s not the purpose of God preparing his bride is to punish her. So, there’s a difference between purification of the bride and punishment of the bride. And of course, Jesus has no punishment for the bride. So, we’re to be prepared, we are to be purified, 1st John 3:2 says, “Be ready, so we don’t shrink back at his coming,” but at the same time, we’re not waiting on God to just simply hammer us through the tribulation for some reason, to put his anger on us in order to make us ready for the return of Christ. So, that’s a great question.
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Todd: Now, we get into some little more, even more peripheral, but interesting questions that we’ve received before. So, here’s one; will the resurrection affect things physically? For example, when Jesus at the cross, we find that some of the tombs of the Old Testament believers burst open and some people were raised from the dead and walked around for a period of time. In other words, are the dead going to just kind of float through the dirt and then transform? Or are they literally going to burst out of their tombs, so to speak?
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Jeff: I vote for bursting. That’s what I learn-
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|
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Todd: Me too, man. That’d be epic.
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||||
Jeff: Yeah. I think the rapture is going to be a dramatic event. You’ve got all these movies that have portrayed the rapture and clothes just dropping and that kind of thing for people who are alive. And I don’t know if it’s going to happen like that or not, but I know this, that when people came out of their tombs, not in the same way at the rapture, when people came out of their tombs when Christ was crucified on the cross when he died and when Lazarus came out… Anytime someone burst out of a grave, it’s a dramatic event.
|
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So, in my way of thinking, I think that it’s going to be big or small, I mean, obviously people who are in the grave and the ocean that’s not going to make a big deal, big splash if you will, but at the same time people coming out of these tombs, people rising, coming out of coffins at funerals, I mean, whatever across the world, because thousands of thousands of people die every day and many of them are in Christ. So yeah, I tend to think that it’s going to be a physically changing event for graveyards all across the world.
|
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|
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Todd: And that links to another topic, and this is an argument I hear sometime, is that people say that pre-trib folks believe in a secret rapture, there is going to be nothing secret about this. It’s going to be the domino that affects everything and puts all and turn things in a motion. And we also read in scripture that there’s going to be a strong delusion, that people will believe the lie-
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
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|
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Todd: … And we don’t know exactly what that is, but I tend to believe the lie will have to do with the explanation for the rapture. And also Jesus is the truth, maybe the Antichrist is kind of personified lie, he’s the lie.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Yes.
|
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|
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Todd: So, somehow he’ll be tied to this answer, whether it’s aliens or some evolutionary thing that just the earth absorbed everybody, there’s all kinds of weird theories out there that actually those involved in the occult and new age teaching are already saying that already the groundwork being laid for excuses for why the rapture will happen. And like you mentioned, it will be a global supernatural event. So, everything is going to change. You think COVID-19 changed earth on a dime, wait until the rapture, everything’s going to change. And there’s going to be a big lie about why the rapture occurred.
|
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Jeff: Well, that’s very true. And I talk about some of these potential scenarios in my book, Interview with the Antichrist because obviously the rapture has occurred when the Antichrist is coming on the scene. But if you think about it, Todd, some countries will be more effected by the rapture than other countries. I mean, you think about countries like Albania or Slovakia or some other countries that are… I mean, even North Korea, even though they’ve got a lot of Christians there, I mean, they’re going to be less affected. And think about in the times in which we live right now, just in terms from a technological standpoint, when that explosion happened in Beirut last week, I mean, within minutes the entire world knew about it. Everybody knew about it. I mean, there were videos from everywhere and then there were posting and re-sharing and tweeting and all this stuff.
|
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|
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And guess what? I opened up my Twitter feed this morning and started scrolling through things and it’s dying. It’s dying in the news. Now, there are other theories coming off of it and stuff, but that’s the way we are today. The whole world has this sort of ADD problem with the news. I mean, something huge can happen, an event and we’ll be fixated on it for 24 hours, and then we just forget it, move on. And to a certain degree, I wonder if when the rapture occurs, there’s going to be this initial shockwave, just like that bomb in Beirut, there is going to be a shockwave, and then after that, it’s just going to be, people are going to start going back to other things because pretty soon after that, at some point, whether it’s weeks or months, the Antichrist is going to sign this peace treaty, and maybe even through that delusion get people’s minds off of the catastrophic chaos that ensued following the rapture.And again, some countries more than others, but a part of that delusion, it says in 2nd Thessalonians chapter two, verse 10, “With all the deception of wickedness that the Antichrist will have.” So, he is going to have the power to… And that’s what a great magician, a great illusionist does, he misdirects, he misdirects. And so he’s able to get their eyes on something else, and this is going to be peace and safety so that they’re not thinking about the cataclysmic chaos that’s just taken place in the world. And then of course, as you say, there’s going to be people coming up with all sorts of explanations.And we may say, “Well, people aren’t going to believe that aliens really kind of… People aren’t going to believe all this stuff, theories of why the rapture occurred.” People that are under a great delusion will believe anything. And they’ll be grasping at any solution that gives them a sense of comfort or hope or explanation or whatever it might be, and so don’t be surprised. I mean, 10 years ago, we would’ve never said that people would be believing the kind of things they’re believing and acting the way they are today-
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: … So, don’t limit the depravity and the deception of the human heart when it comes to the rapture, there’s going to be all sorts of deceptions that’s going to accompany that.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, exactly. I agree. All right. And how about this one? What about people… Because we read about 144,000 Jewish witnesses, we read about the two witnesses in Jerusalem preaching the gospel, and we read about, even in the first set of judgements that there’s going to be great martyrdom. So, in other words, after the church has gone, there’ll be tons of people saved. Now, what happens to them? I’ve heard some people say, when somebody gets saved, they’re immediately raptured. I guess that’s kind of a popcorn rapture, I don’t know what you call that-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: … But have you heard that before? And what does scripture say about when someone is saved in the tribulation period?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. In fact, I had a question, someone walked up to me at church a couple of weeks ago and just said, “What happens to believers in the tribulation? Do they kind of get in on the second wave of the rapture kind of thing?” And just to say what scripture says is that there’s only one rapture, there’s only one time where Jesus returns for his bride, takes her up to heaven and we’re there during the tribulation period. So, there’s only one rapture. So, we know from Revelation that what happens after the rapture is that believers begin to be persecuted. And presumably before the Antichrist even enters the temple and inaugurates 666, and that global mass murder of Christians, because we read in Revelation 6:9, he talks about the souls who had been slain because of the word of God, because of the testimony which they had maintained.
|
||||
|
||||
And so their blood was spilt here in the early parts of the tribulation and Todd, here’s what I think. Right now, Christians are being persecuted in well over 60 or 70 countries across the world actively right now. Brothers and sisters are dying from every single method you could possibly imagine, everything from being burned, to being raped and dismembered, to being crucified, to being beheaded. So, persecution is happening right now all across the world, believers are dying every day. However, we’ve been sort of insulated from that in America because of our Judeo-Christian roots and because of the restraining influence of the holy spirit through the church, but persecution is heating up in America. You can feel the hatred beginning to really reach our shores, and it’s coming really from within, not really from without, it’s coming from within our own country.
|
||||
|
||||
So, as that begins to ramp up, as we get closer to revelation, I think after the rapture happens, there’s going to be no one to hold back that hatred. And so anyone who will pop up to be a Christian, because guess what? The chaos that comes to the earth really comes as a result of the rapture.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yep.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And so all of the things that are going to implode from within and governments that are going to collapse, and the moral lawlessness is going to be increased. People are going to need to blame somebody, they always do. It’s usually the Jews who they blame for calamity. In fact, the Jews have been blamed for the COVID virus and everything else, but Christians, people are going to pop up and say, “Oh, I believe in Jesus Christ,” those people are also going to be blamed. And so it’s going to turn against believers.
|
||||
|
||||
So, I think that what’s going to happen is that they’re going to be believers that are going to be martyred by other people in the world. And then at the mid point of the tribulation, it’s going to be official, it’s going to be governmental, it’s going to be global. And the Antichrist is going to inact a global murder campaign on Christians because not one Christian will receive the mark of the beast. And we know that from Revelation chapter 20 verses four and five. So, I think that there is going to come that persecution and it’s going to happen to believers in the end times, but there’s no indication that they’re going to be raptured, they’re going to be beheaded and they’re going to suffer martyrdom for which they’ll receive great reward. But yeah, it’s not good times if you become a Christian in the end times.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Absolutely. And that’s why there should be such an impetus on us now to reach people for Christ-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yep.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: … And especially as we see the tribulation era casting a shadow on us now. Of course, we don’t know the day or the hour, but you just look around the world and you can… Like you said, even non-believers are feeling it. You and I have talked to people involved in international ministry and we’ve asked them, what’s the sense of the church around the world and every sound voice that we’ve talked to says, the sense is that the Lord’s return is soon. So, as you’ve mentioned before, we plant a tree, we plan as if it’s not going to happen in our lifetime, but we’re seeing a lot of signs that point to his soon return.Jeff: And Todd, I would just say this, as we close this thing out, I’m want to let you take us home here. But here’s the deal, when Noah was building the arch, it had not rained in the sky. And why in the world would you build a boat that big for this rain stuff, this judgment that you say is going to come? Noah must have looked like the biggest fool on the planet.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I mean, talk about people questioning your sanity and making fun of you and that type of thing. And nowadays they can do it all across the world through social media. The Christians that talk about the tribulation period, they talk about Antichrist, they talk about the rapture, it really does sound it’s just some sort of apocalyptic fairy tale and scare tactic to get people into the kingdom. But in reality, it’s the same thing that Noah was doing. Noah was just simply telling people, “Repent because God is coming to judge sin.” And that’s our message. And Jesus is the hope, just like the door to the arc was the way to salvation, Jesus is the door, he’s the arch and that’s where we’re pointing people. That’s where we want our listeners to point people. It’s not just about, hey, just repent for the sake of repentance, it’s no, run to Christ, bow before Jesus Christ, receive that forgiveness and that guaranteed ticket of being raptured should these things happen in the next several years.
|
||||
|
||||
I mean, we’ll be there to be ready as the bride of Christ to be raptured by him. So, even though it sounds like you’re crazy and no one’s talking about this and people are going, “Where’s the sign of his coming? What’s going on? Where are these things going to happen?” Well, you’re able to point them to scripture, to some of the prophecies that are in formation right now, but more than anything else, more than just being prophetically astute is pointing them to Jesus and salvation. That’s the main thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. And just to piggyback off of that before I land the plane, even though we sound crazy now saying… And I admit it is crazy to say God is going to take all Christians out of here in an instant. We’ve never seen that before. There’s no scientific basis to point to that, that’s happened before, but we do have an incredible amount of fulfilled Bible prophecy that proves that God does what he says he’s going to do. And he’s done that over and over and again, so we can trust him implicitly and everything that he said is going to happen in the future I guarantee you it’s going to happen. As a matter of fact, as Jeff alluded to some of the prophecies that are in formation today are more accurate than last week’s newspaper. I mean, everything going on in Syria with Russia and Iran and Turkey forming an alliance north of Israel’s border, Ezekiel 38.
|
||||
|
||||
So, many other things related to the Middle East and everything that the Bible said would happen in the end times is forming right now in our day, exactly like the Bible said it would happen. Man, time went by so fast. Again, we still had several questions that we didn’t get to, maybe season three we’ll tackle it again, because it’s a popular topic. But if you have any questions about the rapture or anything else, please go to prophecyprospodcast.com. There’s a place on there where you can ask Jeff and I questions. Those will go immediately to Jeff and myself and we’ll answer them as soon as we possibly can.Again, that’s the prophecyprospodcast.com. And also there, you can find out about Jeff’s books, about my books and about our ministries and about a lot of other stuff. And as always, we want to give a big thank you to Harvest House Publishers who makes this possible. And we love partnering with them, they’re a great organization, a great publishing company, and they stand for truth. And we just thank them for partnering with us in such an important way. So, until next time, we’ll see you again on the Prophecy Pros podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
Hey, thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe if you have not done so already. And if you like what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review that does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot. For more resources, or to ask questions, or find more about our ministries, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
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|
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![[S2E4: Donna VanLiere: The End Times and The Younger Generation.mp3]]
|
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|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. Today, we have an amazing guest, Donna van Leer. She’s a New York Times and USA Today bestselling author with six novels turned into made-for-TV movies, including The Christmas Shoes. A long time student of Bible prophecy, she is passionate about speaking, teaching and revealing the hope of scripture and what it has to say about today’s headlines. Donna, welcome to the podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Thank you, Todd. Thank you, Jeff. Great to be here with you.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: We’re just so honored to have you on here. We had a chance to read your book and really love it. We’ll definitely unpack a few things about that, but first, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your story, how you came to Christ and how you became an author?
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Well, I came to Christ as a young girl. I grew up in northeast Ohio, and I was very young at the time. My church where I grew up, we would hear that Jesus was coming back. That was a message that was taught either by the pastor or visiting pastor, even missionaries when they would come. They would just weave it into their message. Christ is returning. Jesus is coming. So it was something that I was used to hearing. But then as I became an adult, I realized that that message wasn’t being taught anymore. But I grew up in a church that taught it, in a church that still teaches it in Ohio. So, that’s my background. I just started writing in college really. I was always just writing something on the side, doing something freelance and even when I got married, just continuing to write something on the side. Then one day I thought, “Hey, maybe I should actually sit down and write a book.” So I started writing books is basically how it all came together.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It’s amazing just how God leads different people down different paths to come to an intersection in their life where they go, “Wait a minute. This is converging for me. This is a place where I feel like my voice is being heard,” and that type of thing. And you find yourself doing what God’s pleasure is in your life. It’s just wonderful to see, Donna, just how God has led you down this path and brought you to where you are today. It’s amazing to me, as you said, not a lot of pastors are preaching about Bible prophecy. Oddly enough, we’re living in it right now, living in the last days, and yet it seems like a lot of people are missing it. But what has been, I’m interested to see just your response from your fans, your readers, because going from the genre that you were writing in to Bible prophecy had to feel like in some ways a dramatic switch for them. What’s been the feedback that you’ve gotten?
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: I think it was dramatic for some of them. The book that I had written is called The Time of Jacob’s Trouble, and it’s about two-thirds novel and one-third biblical teaching. I did get some pushback at the very beginning. Readers were emailing me and one woman said, “What’s with all the Bible stuff?” And she said she stopped reading, which is unfortunate, because I wrote it for people who really didn’t grow up with it, who don’t know it. Because as I said, as I became an adult, I realized that that message wasn’t being taught anymore at church. And one Sunday, it was like an epiphany for me. And I thought, “If it has been decades for me since I have actually heard a message about the return of Christ, what about the millennials? What about generation Z? What do they know?”
|
||||
|
||||
So that’s why I wanted to write this book. I wanted to write it. Jesus spoke in parables so that people could understand. So I wanted to write this book part story form so that Generation Z or the millennials who aren’t going to pick up a book strictly about Bible prophecy. They’re just not going to do it. They’re going to find it boring. It’s going to be too taxing or whatever. So I wanted to write this in story form so that it would draw them in but the Bible’s in there, that scripture teaching is in there in the back. And I heard from one woman, she said, “Oh, this is too scriptured for me.” I didn’t even know scriptured was a word.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, that’s an inventive term there.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: But I did hear recently from one woman. And she said, “My 16 year old has read through this book twice and she has said to me, ‘Mom, I had no idea this was in the Bible.'” I heard last week from a grandmother. She said, “I gave this book to my 14 year old grandson and he actually read it.” She said, “And then he came to me and he had questions and we sat down and had a conversation about it.” So, hey, I am so pleased with that because there’s a lot of people, particularly in our realm, in the Christian realm who would pick it up and say, “Oh, this is fiction. I’m not going to read it.” And they wouldn’t even get to the back of it where all the Bible teaching is, but everything I wrote, even in the story part, is from scripture. I wanted it to be scripture.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I was going to say, I think it’s very strategic, Donna, that you’ve done that because I know a lot of millennials, like my daughter’s in laws, my kids who are married to them, they love historical fiction. And it’s crazy because they’re reading books on World War II right now. And they would never pick up a book on history on World War II, but this historical fiction where there’s a storyline, it takes them all these places. It draws them in. So I think doing something like this with apocalyptic fiction really does bring people in to the story. And as my wife said, it’s like breadcrumbs leading them to the truth, and they finally get there in the end. So I applaud you for putting together this book in this form.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Oh, thank you, Jeff.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. That’s fantastic that you’re trying to reach that demographic. And you’re right, it’s almost like the teaching of eschatology has skipped a generation and Jeff and I are noticing the same thing. As a matter of fact, that’s one of the main goals of this podcast is to reach millennials and generations beyond that because they’re not hearing it. And yeah, I commend you as well just for using story to connect with them, because everybody loves a good story. Even if a few of them end up turning it off because they say there’s too much, what was the verb you made up?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Scriptured. Yes.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It’s too scriptural? Too scriptured.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: It was too scriptured, yes.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. But those frontline stories that you shared about the 14 year old reading it and other young people, I bet that just really encouraged you a lot. So I commend you for taking the risk, and we know that’s obviously something that the Lord had to make really clear to you that, that was what you were to write on. What are some of the specific things where he nudged you in that direction and opened up the door and made it clear that you were to write this book?
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Well, I don’t know if there was a definite clear day, but there were things that were leading up to it. I had already been studying it for a long time. Because again, I’d been sitting in a church service week after week, and I would find myself saying to myself, saying things like, “I think I’ve heard this same message at least 25 times in my life,” but I would have to check my spirit and say, “Okay, somebody here may have never heard the story of the prodigal son or of the Good Samaritan.” And at the particular church that we were going to, we heard the message of the Good Samaritan twice in 13 months, because we have several pastors. So it was things like that. It was like, “Oh my word, I keep hearing the same messages over and over, but there’s no word about the return of Christ. There’s no hope in the return of Christ. There’s no mention of sin.”
|
||||
|
||||
There literally is no mention of sin from a lot of pulpits and how sin separates us. People don’t want to hear about God’s wrath. They don’t want to hear about God’s judgment. They just want to hear about his love and his kindness and his goodness, his mercy and his grace, which is awesome. But he can’t be a loving God if there is no wrath, if there is no retaliation and judgment on sin. There has to be a judgment on sin. Otherwise rape, murder, trafficking, racism, it’s just going to go on and on and on forever. So those messages were missing. So one Sunday, I was just sitting there and it just felt like God deposited the idea into my heart. Write a book, have it be story form, but also have it be teaching. Teaching to draw people into the word. And so when I do get those emails of people who are reading The Time of Jacob’s Trouble, and they’re saying, “I had no idea this was in the Bible,” I love that. It’s awesome for me.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That means you’re hitting the nerve. Yes. Hitting the bullseye there. And also just, I mean, the timing is everything in book publishing and obviously 2020 has been the most crazy mad year that we’ve had in recent history. How do you think that just God bringing this book to you at this time and having it published at this time, what are you seeing in terms of the book’s success and people’s lives, Christians that are giving you positive feedback from it? I mean, in terms of what’s going on in the world today, are you seeing a parallel between us leading up to The Time of Jacob’s Trouble?
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Well, yes, but I don’t recommend releasing a book the very same week that your country shuts down with a pandemic. I don’t recommend that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, a lot of fun. Yeah, we understand the speaking engagements are like, “Well, we’re going to put that off for a year.” Oh, thanks.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Yeah. And Amazon literally stopped shipping books for a while, if you remember that.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, I remember that.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: They stopped shipping books. So I don’t recommend that, but I always go back to, hey, God knew this from the beginning. He knew when the book was going to come out. He knew who was going to read it. And I do keep hearing from believers who are reading it and they are encouraging me, saying, “Hey, please keep doing this. Please keep writing.” As a matter of fact, I have an author Facebook page and then I have a personal Facebook page. And on my personal one, I put a lot more of the Revelation type stuff on there. I had a pastor from Pennsylvania, he contacted me last week. And he said, “Your posts has encouraged me to teach Revelation.” He said, “The only thing I’ve ever taught out of Revelation has been the letters to the seven churches.” And he said, “I think it’s time that I start.”
|
||||
|
||||
So he asked me if I would actually teach some of those messages, record them, because they can’t meet right now, to record them and share them with his congregation. So, that’s awesome. And I think that there are more and more spiritual leaders who are seeing and sensing the season that we’re in. And they’re saying we have got to start blowing those trumpets. It reminds me of Numbers 10. I don’t know the exact verses. I know it’s like six, seven, and eight, something like that, six through 10 maybe of Numbers 10 where they blow the trumpet and the camps to the east, they get ready first. And when they hear that trumpet, they’re like, “Okay, it’s time to get ready. We’re going to set out. We’ve got to get ready.” And in verse 10, I think it is, of Numbers 10, Numbers 10:10, it says that the sons of Aaron blew the trumpets. It was the spiritual leaders who blew the trumpets as that warning to get people ready.And Jeff and Todd, I think that’s what you do. You’re blowing those trumpets. You’re saying, “Hey people, it is time to get ready.” And I think there are other pastors. My own pastor is teaching through Revelation right now. I think they’re starting to sense it more and more the, “Hey, we’ve got to blow these trumpets. We have got to get people ready,” because so much of the church, they’re not ready. They have no idea. They’re like Eutychus in the book of Acts. If you remember him, he fell asleep listening to Paul. Much of the church is sleeping and they have no idea what’s happening in the world. If you don’t believe that, just read through your Facebook or your social media posts. It’s like, are these people aware of what’s happening in the world? So, thank you, men, for blowing the trumpet and getting people ready.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: You bet. It’s definitely our calling. Absolutely. And we appreciate that. And one of the things that I love about your book is that it is so solid. There’s a lot of apocalyptic literature out there. And I tell people, “You go to Amazon, you’re going to get everything from A to Z. Every bird in the air is going to be flocking to this bush.” But you’ve got such solid biblical material in here and it just tells me that you have a great solid scriptural found … You’re very, scriptured, Donna.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Yeah, right. I’ve heard that.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: We’re going to work that into our regular lingo now.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That ought to be a book title, Scriptured.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Scriptured.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Calling people back to the word of God. But no, seriously, I mean, really it flows through the fiction element and then of course in the back of the book as well. But that’s one of the things that I think that, and we believe that, our opinions ultimately are just our opinions, but what does God really say? We want to know what God says. When someone blows that trumpet, we want to make sure it’s a trumpet that’s blown on key and it’s something that is calling people to the right things and not to sensationalism or not to panic or anxiety or worry, but to the comfort and confidence that is found in the word of God. And your book does that. It’s a powerful tool for people to take in their hands, and like you said, to be able to give to someone else who may be just dipping their toe in Christianity or the Bible or Bible prophecy. So we highly recommend this book, The Time of Jacob’s Trouble.A lot of women that I know personally have read it. And so they are just telling me, “Jeff, it’s entertaining and it draws you in. But at the same time in the back, you get the meat of the word.” So thank you for doing that.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Oh, that’s awesome. Thanks. I actually like to say because of Jesus’s words in Luke 21, when you begin to see all these things, look up. So I like to say that it does feel like the world is spiraling out of control, but we know that things are looking up and we have much to anticipate. I even did a short series podcast called that, Things Are Looking Up, where we actually discuss what our generation is seeing that previous generations couldn’t understand when they read those prophecies in the Bible. They thought, “What in the world? That doesn’t make any sense.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Exactly. Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: But we’re the generation that is seeing so much stuff, and we just have to tell people about it. We have to say, “We’re it.” We are the generation that is seeing all of these things being fulfilled, and that’s why things are looking up.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I agree 100%, and I think that’s why the enemy has gotten so much of the church to fall asleep and so many people to shy away from Bible prophecy. And it’s interesting. One of the most common emails I get is, “Hey, there’s nobody around that I can talk to about Bible prophecy. Nobody seems to see what I’m seeing.” So, books like yours, and I pray that even though it launched during a pandemic, that’s one reason we’re thrilled to have you on the show. We pray that this will really get many of your books into the hands of people because this book is amazing. I mean, I read it, I was riveted the whole time. Of course, I was a big fan of Left Behind series back in the day. I love the narrative form of that, but in my opinion, you’re a little more real and raw than even that was.
|
||||
|
||||
This isn’t just some churchy Bible book. You really made it raw and real to where I feel someone who’s not even a believer would pick this up and be engaged by it and resonate with it as this feels real, and then hopefully engage with the message of Bible prophecy and the lateness of the hour. So thank you so much for writing this book. I can’t wait for us to tell everybody about it and try to get this into more hands of people.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Well, I appreciate that and I did want to make it real, but we all know that whatever I wrote in there is not going to be probably half of what the tribulation period is going to be like, because when the Bible says that men’s hearts will fail them from fear, that’s a really hard time to be alive, when you are so afraid that you literally have a heart attack and die. So I don’t think I’ve probably even scratched the surface of what that time is going to be like, but I did want people to get some sort of image of what it would be like, because when we see anarchy and violence in the streets right now, that’s with law enforcement still intact, that’s with some parameters still built in, but one day those aren’t going to be there anymore. And it’s just going to be anarchy and violence on an unprecedented scale. So I don’t think I probably did that time justice, but I do hope, again, to paint some sort of picture so that people can get some sort of idea of what it might possibly be like during that time.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, and I think that too, Donna, it’s one of the reasons why this is prime time for Bible prophecy. I mean, this is a moment in history that God has positioned us, he’s planted us, he’s put us in these places for such a time as this. So I think that’s just one of the reasons why we have to continue to trumpet those alarms and to get the message out. And it’s crazy because all the hope that we find in Christ is Jesus being the arc of our salvation, he’s the answer, he’s the way, the truth and the life, but this message is like hidden in plain sight. I mean, all the comfort and hope we get from Bible prophecy is just sitting right there in front of us. And even the churches, they’re ignoring this precious jewel of hope that we have.
|
||||
|
||||
So that’s one of the reasons why we aren’t shy or we don’t apologize or back down about talking about it because everything in scripture has a timing, and I think right now is the time where we need to be heralding this message of not only warning, but also of hope. I mean, these days are coming. These days of trouble are coming upon the whole world, as it says in Revelation. So we’re just excited about the opportunity that we have in this hour. And just like Churchill said in World War II, “This may be our finest hour,” and this truly may be the opportunity, I think, for the church to rise up and have a voice. And however we go out when the rapture comes, whether it’s in a moment of revival or a moment of great contrast between good and evil, either way, we need to have our ears open, our hearts open, our mouths open to declare that message.
|
||||
|
||||
So, it’s just so cool for us to know that we have partners in ministry like you, and we’re all in our own deployments fighting the battle, but we’re all on the same team of wearing the same uniform for Christ.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: And Jesus, he told us to watch and to be aware. So as believers, we have to watch and pay attention to what is going on. Just last week I was visiting my mom in Ohio and there was a news program on. During that news program, they talked about the safety of kids going back to school. They talked about peace of mind for parents, peace of mind for others at this time. Then they switched to commercials, and the very first commercial said, “Your safety is our top priority.” The second commercial also talked about safety. We take your safety very seriously. So in a moment, in a manner of 10 or 15 minutes, I kept hearing the words over and over, peace and safety.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Peace and safety.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Peace and safety. And again, it’s just one of those things Jesus says to watch. And there I was, it was like, “Oh my word, we keep hearing the same words over and over again. Peace and safety, peace and safety.” What does the Bible say about that? When we hear those words, peace and safety, and then sudden-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Sudden destruction.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Right, sudden destruction. But it’s just one of those things where it can slip by you because we hear those words so often now. They’re out there all the time in newscasts, on internet sites, in commercials. We hear it all the time.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. It’s a part of the cultural narrative now and people are buying into it because obviously of fear and they don’t want to live like this forever, but if they have somebody, an authority telling them it’s going to be okay, we’re going to take care of you, then all of a sudden it’s like they can relax and they don’t really need to work on their eternal destiny or anything like that because the government’s going to take care of us or whoever it is out there. The Bible just seems to get lucky a lot on those kinds of things.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: You’re right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It’s just like these divine coincidences. It’s like, how does the Bible do that? I mean, it’s just every single time it gets it right. So yeah, it’s amazing. God is in charge and he’s in control, and we have obviously comfort in that. But as Martin Luther said, “If Christ were coming back tomorrow, I would plant a tree today.” Meaning I think, we’ve just got to keep living our lives and keep being faithful to what God’s called us to do. And yeah, we make plans and we submit them to the Lord, but we have things coming up in our lives and working on things. And speaking of, are you working on some new projects right now?
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: I’m actually in the editing phase of the second book. It’s called The Day of Ezekiel’s Hope. We wanted this just to be a three book series. So again, it’ll be part novel and then part biblical teaching. And that will come out, I think, in March. And this October, I have a book, completely unrelated, but it’s called The Christmas Table. And that is a fiction book, but it also includes recipes, which sounds like such a strange thing to be talking about in a prophecy podcast, a book that has recipes in it.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s good though because it gives our listeners a full gamut of your body of work. So that’s great. And I think it adds more punch to the fact that you’re writing about Bible prophecy, because here you’ve got a woman who’s a great author, mom, whole nine yards, has had made for TV movies, and then you switch gears and do a series of books on Bible prophecy. To me that shows the importance of it. And I do think it’s funny how God is really handpicking people whose hearts are open and are watching these things to use any means necessary to get this message out. So I appreciate you, as Jeff said, just rising to the occasion for such a time as this. It definitely seems like we’re late in the hour, and that seems to be the sense by solid believers all over the world right now.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Right. And I’ve had people say before, “Oh, I don’t think I can study Bible prophecy.” Well, anybody can study Bible prophecy. You just have to read the Bible. My 19 year old, who’s going off to college her freshman year next Friday, she told me out of the blue, she said, “Mom, I’m reading Revelation right now and it’s really hard to understand because there’s so much symbolism in there.” And I explained to her that it’s like you can’t start at the end of a book when you’re reading a book because you don’t understand anything. You have to have a grasp of everything prior to that. You don’t pick up a novel and turn to the ending chapter because you think, “Well, who’s this guy? Where did he come from? How did he end up in Montana?” You know, that sort of thing. You have to know the beginning chapters. And God weaves that prophetic timeline all through scripture, so anybody can study it.Anybody can read. If you don’t like to read, you can listen to it. Revelation is the only book that gives you that threefold blessing. One of them is because of listening to it.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: So listen to it, read it out loud, but just begin the study because we’re in the season and there’s so much good stuff in there. There’s so much goodness. And it eases our fears and it comforts our hearts because we do see that things are looking up and we do see that we’re so close to the return of Jesus, but we have to blow those trumpets wherever you are on what social media platform you have and whatever corner of the world you live in, you have to blow those trumpets because the time is near.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. And you think about the fact that God had one book to write and he had one closing chapter to write, and he chose that chapter to be Revelation. God wanted to end with this crescendo of history and to be able to give us something that, like you said, every person can grasp. I mean, the Bible is for everyone. It’s not beyond people’s understanding. They just need to buy a Todd Hampson book, is what they need. Right, Todd?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: [inaudible] a bundle of all of our books. Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: There you go, the trilogy. We’ll do the trilogy here with the Todd, Donna, Jeff thing there. Well, Donna, Todd, and I both know what it’s like to drop off your precious child at college, and just the kick in the gut that that feels like, the heartache that that feels. And we’ll certainly be praying for you as that occurs in your life and your family’s life and stuff. But tell us how can people find out more about your books and more about your ministry and more about your life?
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: I have a website, DonnaVanLeer.com. I am on social media, really just only Facebook, and I’ve been told I don’t do that very well. Apparently you have to hire people to do it well or whatever, but I mean, I can go weeks and I’m not on there. But I am on Facebook and it’s under my name. And I do have that limited podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts, and it is called Things Are Looking Up. And again, it’s about what our generation is seeing that previous generations couldn’t understand. And it’s exciting stuff. These are exciting days.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. They sure are. Donna, we thank God that he has put you in a place and given you the platform that he has given you to reach out. And obviously God has been orchestrating your life, bringing you to this point and leading you to write this book. And we praise God for it. It’s called The Time of Jacob’s Trouble by Donna Van Leer. You can get it anywhere books are sold. So Donna, we want to thank you so much for coming on the Prophecy Pros podcast. Thank you for your life, your ministry, what you’re doing. And we just pray God’s richest blessings on you as you move forward.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Todd. So appreciate your time today.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: You’re so welcome.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Thank you.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: We’ll have to do it again when some new books come out, if the Lord hasn’t returned yet.
|
||||
|
||||
Donna: That’s right. Awesome.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. Well, thank you guys for joining us on the Prophecy Pros podcast. We’re in season two right now. We’re very excited about the guests that are coming up, plus the other shows that Todd and I will be doing. So, you keep listening and keep following Jesus Christ. God bless.Hey for more resources and show notes, how to contact us, how to ask questions, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. We’ll see you next episode, or maybe not. Maybe we’ll see you in the air.
|
||||
|
||||
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![[S2E5: Living with Hope and Joy… Even Now!.mp3]]
|
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|
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![[S2E6: Tom Hughes: The Church and the Last Days.mp3]]
|
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![[S2E7: Convergence: Piecing Together the Puzzle.mp3]]
|
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|
||||
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|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Hey, today, we’re going to take a look at how everything is converging right in our day.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: All right, Todd, so today, we’re going to talk about how the events and the phenomenons that are going on in our world right now are really converging exactly as the Bible predicted that they would and how it’s really leading us to a place where we’re ramping up to Revelation and we don’t know exactly when the Rapture is going to happen, we talked about that in a previous episode, we don’t exactly when the tribulation is going to begin, we know how it begins, but all these things that are happening right now, Todd, that are going on in our world, both nationally and globally, seem to be all pointing in the same direction, and wow, what do you know? It’s exactly what the Bible said was going to happen.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It really is. When you bust out a thousand-piece puzzle to put together, you got to have that top of the puzzle box to look at to start to piece it together, and I don’t know about you, but for me, four or five years ago in particular, well, you’ve been studying about prophecy for a really long time, but for me, I started seeing that convergence with crystal clarity four or five years ago where what we’re seeing when we piece things together look a whole lot like the top of that puzzle box, and that has only continued, I mean, 2020, it’s like a convergence on steroids.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It really is. Here’s the great thing I think about studying the Bible in general, but also Bible prophecy: I think about that scene in The Matrix where Neo, he’s at the point where he finally just realizes he’s the one and he’s able to see the matrix with his eyes, he can see behind the scenes of what no one else can see, and that’s really what the Bible does for us. I mean, it gives us wisdom. It gives us insight, gives us discernment so that we can look at the world around us and we don’t have to just stand around and scratch our heads or to cower in fear, like so many are doing. Believers have access and the Bible says we have the mind of Christ in us and the Holy Spirit in us, so we have the actual ability to see what’s happening in the world as we read it through the lens of the Scripture.
|
||||
|
||||
One of the things that we’re seeing right now, Todd, is this sense of lawlessness and of anarchy that’s really been sweeping our land right now. It’s almost like those fires in California, they’ve just been popping up different places, and then literal fires as a result of that, burning buildings down, burning businesses and that type of thing. I look at what Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 3 when he says, “But realize this, or know this, that in the last days, difficult times will come, for men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents.” He goes on to say, “unloving, irreconcilable, without self-control, they’re reckless, they’re conceited.”
|
||||
|
||||
What’s amazing to me is that I read those verses and I just look up and I see that in my world, I see it going on right now. People say, “Well, there’s been things like that in the past.” Yeah, but not in the last days, because these don’t necessarily mean we’re in the last days, but when you combine the fact that it’s happening right now with everything else that’s happening in the world, it all forms a picture, so it’s kind of like one piece of the puzzle doesn’t tell you much, but when you put more pieces together, a picture starts to form, doesn’t it?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, it really does, and like you said, yeah, we’ve had those things before, but the important thing with Bible prophecy in particular is the super sign is Israel becoming a nation again, so once that occurred, then you start paying attention: All right, what’s going on in the world? I would add here in America, where, and I’m guilty of this, too, we’re so America-focused that we often don’t realize even what’s going on in the rest of the world, but even with the lawlessness and rioting, if you do a little bit of research, you’ll find that that’s that’s happening, that that has spread all over the world, just like the virus did, and then also, there are other things we can look at.
|
||||
|
||||
Often when I’m talking to somebody about Bible prophecy, if they’re looking at me like a deer in the headlights and it seems either too overwhelming, or like I’m just grabbing a verse here and a verse there, what I usually say is, “Okay, pick one thing and study it for yourself.” For example, if somebody is just starting to study Bible prophecy and wants to know, “All right, what’s something I can look at that clearly shows last-days Bible prophecy forming in our day where I can really gauge it and look at it and study it?” I always point them to Ezekiel 38 because that’s the war of Gog and Magog, which you and I both believe happens after the Rapture, but we’re seeing the stage being set for that now, so if someone carefully studies Ezekiel, if you got time, Ezekiel 36-39, that talks about Israel becoming a nation again, and then about this war happening, but even just studying the details of Ezekiel 38 and the nations that are mentioned and the conditions and where they’re coming from, it lines up. You almost got to pinch yourself because it’s so perfectly aligned with what we see in the news right now.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, it does. I mean, those same nations that were prophesied in Ezekiel are nations today that are all at odds with Israel, they all hate Israel, basically. It’s like once again, the Bible just keeps on getting it right every time. It’s like with archeology and science and everything else, the Bible always ends up on top, but you’re absolutely right, and so it’s a powder keg, it’s really a powder keg in formation. You think about this recent explosion here that happened several months back in Beirut, Lebanon, where I mean, everyone’s seen the video from that thing, but that’s exactly what’s brewing right now with these nations surrounding Israel, and if you want to find out what’s going to happen in that so-called battle, all you need to do is to read those chapters in Ezekiel 38 and 39, because it’s amazing what happens there.
|
||||
|
||||
But you’re right, Todd, those things are part of the convergence, they’re part of things that are going on right now. I think what happens sometimes, Todd, and you and I both seen this and we scratch our heads when it happens, but when things like, for example, the Trump peace plan with the United Arab Emirates, when that thing was announced, and there was all of a sudden, “Whoa, you mean these two nations are actually going to agree on some things, are going to open up flights and trade and that kind of thing?” People are going, “Whoa, this is it.” I had people sending me questions like, “Does this mean that we’re in the tribulation? Because the Bible does say there’s going to be this peace covenant with Israel. Is this the peace covenant?” I said, “Well, it’s not because that would mean Trump would be the Antichrist, or at least his son-in-law would be the Antichrist, and I don’t believe that that’s true.”
|
||||
|
||||
Then secondly, it would mean that we’re actually in the tribulation period, and of course, we’re not seeing any of those things happen as well. I think the peace plan that Daniel 9:27 talks about, that covenant is something going to be much greater and bring much more peace to the region than simply this tiny peace plan, but at the same time, Todd, it certainly does play into the fact that, number one, people are dying for reconciliation and peace and in that region.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Then secondly, it certainly could be a piece to a puzzle that maybe the Antichrist could look back on and use as a precedent and build upon for his greater peace plan, but again, it’s like we keep seeing these hints, we keep seeing these things, so we don’t run to them and say, “This is fulfilled Bible prophecy,” but at the same time, we see them as foreshadowing of what’s actually going to happen, so I guess maybe a good way to look at it is say, “We need to distinguish between the false signs and the foreshadowing,” those are two separate things and we need to make sure that we understand that and that’s one of the reasons that we study the Bible so that we can distinguish those things.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right, and actually, I’m glad you brought that up. The two questions I’ve gotten most recently within the past five months are: “Is the upcoming vaccine going to be the mark of the beast?” and “Is this agreement, either the peace agreement, or even this Abraham Accord thing, is that the Daniel 9:27 covenant?” and I’ve taken the same track in that I’ve said, “I mean, yes, we see the technology and the push for some kind of mark coming up and some of the technology that is out there right now lines up really closely with what the Bible talks about, but that all happens mid-trib, so we’re going to be long gone by then.” We see the stage setting for that or the foreshadows of it and things coming into place, just like we would expect to see, although that’s not going to be the actual mark because…
|
||||
|
||||
In other words, someone asked me, “Do I have to be afraid about taking the mark of the beast?” No, if you’re a believer, you’ll be out of here. Then the other thing is the Daniel 9:27 covenant, and actually, there’s a word in Daniel 9:27 that talks about the Antichrist will strengthen or finalize that agreement, so it does sound like perhaps there’s something on the table already that he adds to and makes it bigger, greater, and that kind of thing, but just the fact that people are talking about a Mideast peace deal or another example is just the fact that people have a desire that Jewish people, many Jewish people in Israel have a desire to start the temple sacrifices and that kind of thing again, that just blows my mind. When I first became a believer, that really tripped me up because I was like, “Nobody’s ever going to want to do sacrifices, that’s so old and archaic,” but here in our day, just like the Bible predicted you have a group of people who want to do that on the temple mount, which is needed for end-time Bible prophecy.
|
||||
|
||||
What about China, Jeff? I know revelation talks about the Kings of the East coming and a lot of people don’t realize that China rising to the power that it is is a new phenomenon. How does China or the Kings of the East fit into Bible prophecy?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, China has become obviously a world superpower and they sit in a position where they have amassed a great stockpile of weapons and also just the ability to do other types of attacks, like for example, an electromagnetic pulse attack, which they’ve already tested out in lieu of doing that in the United States, and some people have speculated that after the Rapture, when the United States is greatly weakened, at that point, that’s when a nation like a China could come in with that type of attack, cripple our communications, cripple our electrical systems, and to be able to have some sort of takeover, or invasion, even, and so China is a major player.
|
||||
|
||||
Like you said, they’re part, I believe, of the Kings of the East that will be a part of Armageddon, and so even right now, secularists are keeping their eye on China. This is not even really a biblical thing, necessarily, but it’s just a world/geopolitical kind of thing where we’re watching China because we never know what China’s up to. We don’t know what China is going to do next, and of course, this whole thing with the virus that came out of China, I mean, there’s a lot of speculation there, and I won’t go there because there aren’t really any hard cold facts to prove different theories as of yet, but China is a major player, they’re going to be heard from in the Book of Revelation and the Tribulation Period, and so right now, it would make sense that China would be testing these things, testing these attacks out, and testing these theories out that they have about how they might have an influence on the world, because I guess here’s the bottom line:
|
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|
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You can always count on the sin nature being the sin nature and when you have a godless government like the communist Chinese government right now in control, we would expect them to think of ways to expand their power and expand their influence and even to take over other countries, and so this is something that we have to always keep an eye on in terms of other nations. I mean, Russia is the same way, and so we’re not living in a neutral universe. We’re not living in a peaceful neighborhood here. If the world is a neighborhood, we’re living in a place where we have to keep an eye on the neighbor across the street because you never know if they’re going to come and bombard you.
|
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|
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Todd: I think that that brings up a good point. I think of wars and rumors of war. It’s almost like you and I have just grown up with that nonstop and we’ve seen some wars that our country has had to be involved in with the Iraq War, and even before that, the Gulf War, and that kind of thing, but when it comes to like Russia and China or big, mega war, it’s almost like our generation is lulled into sleep, like, “Oh, that’s just always going to be a tension that’s there, but the different checks and balances will keep everything at bay,” but we know from Scripture, at some point, it breaks loose and in the tribulation, there’s clearly major war going on in the first set of judgments.But before that, and I promise we’ll end on a hopeful note, as we always do, this is some heavy stuff, but before that, whether it’s Ezekiel 38 or other areas, you’ve studied this well, the weakening of America, we see that happening before our eyes and something, you and I believe the main thing will be the Rapture, will have to weaken America to where it does not come to Israel’s aid in Ezekiel 38 and where it’s not a major end-time player. I mentioned all that because that’s part of the convergence that we’re talking about, but I’m leading to this question, because this is the question on a lot of people’s minds, and I hear two different answers to it, depending on who it is, and it’s this: “After 2020, will things ever get back to normal?” and I’m doing air quotes when I say “normal.”
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Jeff: Well, it’s a great question. I am actually in the process of finishing up a new book right now, it’s called Aftershocks and it’s all about how are things going to change moving forward from a biblical prophetic standpoint and the book will be out in April of 2021, but I think it raises the question, Todd, because it’s on everyone’s minds right now thinking about, “Gosh, is this an egg that is so scrambled it can never go back again? I mean, are we ever going to be able to return back to certain normalcy of living and of what our country used to look like?”
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To give hope is to say this, is to say that there’s always hope as long as there’s Jesus Christ and we know that Christ is here, He’s with us. It’s Jesus is like the door to the ark, to Noah’s Ark. As long as it’s open, then people can come in, and so the hope that we have to give to people is not necessarily the hope that our country is going to always be like it used to be, because it’s almost like Pandora’s box. So many things have been let out of the bag, let out of the box right now, to put them back in the box is going to create some problems, so we may have some tough days ahead of us.
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I mean, this election that’s coming up, the left has promised revolution if Trump is elected. If Trump’s not elected, there’s going to be a whole nother kind of revolution that’s going to go on, so we’re facing challenging times, but as we mentioned in a previous episode, this is not something that believers are unfamiliar with through the centuries. If anything, we’ve had it kind of easy, especially in America, because we’ve been insulated by the fact that our country is a Judeo-Christian country.
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|
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I look at Jesus’ words in John 16:33 and He says this, He says, “In the world, you will have tribulation,” but then He says, Todd, “But take courage. I have overcome the world,” and to me, that is one of the things that just… I mean, it makes me what a flex my spiritual muscles, you know?
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Todd: That’s right.
|
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|
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Jeff: Just to say, “Listen, Jesus has got this.” I don’t have to be afraid, and even if things do get worse in our world, the darker the night, the brighter the light, and the stronger that we need to be with one another in our local churches and with our families to stand up and to say “I’m here” to be a witness for Jesus as salt and light in this world, so there’s nothing but great hope on the horizon for us, even if times get rough, because Christ stands with us and He stands for us during these difficult days.
|
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|
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Todd: Amen. Well-put, man. I mean, best-case scenario, the Rapture is soon, and as we’re talking about with this convergence, all signs are pointing to all systems go, it could literally happen at any moment, and I pray it does, but I think psychologically, we also need to be prepared that He may delay a while. He loves people. He died to reach as many as possible, so from our perspective, we want it to happen yesterday, but from His perspective, He wants to reach as many people as possible.
|
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|
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In my gut, and this is more of a gut/prayer feeling versus specific Bible verse, I don’t feel like our country will ever turn back to how it was. I think it’s part of the end times weakening and falling away of the church and all the things that they sound really negative and they are in and of themselves apart from the fact that God has a master plan and the verse you shared, I love it, that He overcame the world.
|
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|
||||
Another one that comes to mind is just several verses similar to this, but where He says, “I will never leave you nor forsake you,” and even looking at Psalm 23 where way back when King David was penning some words, he said, “You prepare a table for me in the presence of my enemies.” I think we talked about China. I think about the believers in China. I read an article today. This year alone, over 400, it was either 250 or 450 crosses have been removed from churches. China is ramping up persecution, but the underground church in China is exploding, and I’ve heard many believers from China when they’ve had the opportunity to speak to American audiences basically say in a nice way, “We’re praying that persecution comes to America because the church in America will explode if it does,” like we have it a little bit too easy here.Personally, I don’t pray for that. I pray for the Rapture, that’d be fine with me, but like you said, when we get to heaven, we can’t reach people for Christ, we can’t struggle for Him. We don’t work to get ourselves to heaven, but now today is an opportunity that we can work like we’ll never be able to for the rest of eternity. We can do what we were supposed to do at a time when it counts more than ever if we rise to the occasion, and I believe that day is today.
|
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|
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Jeff: I believe it, too, Todd, and I’m reminded of what, I believe it was the hymn writer, Fanny Crosby said, she said, “We’ll have all of eternity to celebrate our victories, but we’ll only one short hour before sunset to win them,” and I used to play sports. I look at life like the clock is ticking in the game and I believe we’re well into the fourth quarter. Don’t know where in the fourth quarter we are, but the clock is ticking and there’s going to come a day when the chance to earn rewards for Christ, the chance to reach people with Christ will be gone for me, and whether that’s today or 30 years or whatever, but I have to do today what I can do today.
|
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|
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Every person listening right now, you don’t have to have a podcast, you don’t have to have a Bible study necessarily. All you need to do is to be the person that God created you to be, continue to grow in Jesus Christ, enjoy God day by day and all the good things that He gives us in our lives, fervently love one another, and then just be that light for Christ. Don’t, don’t be a 10-watt light bulb for Jesus. I mean, be a full-on 100-watt light, be an LED light for Christ.Todd: That’s cool.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Seriously, just be who God has created you to be and just know that even though we’re seeing a lot of things converging right now in our world today, what else is converging is the body of Christ, the remnant of the body of Christ, we’re converging together and we’re cluing in. I see believers doing this all the time, Todd, people are cluing into the fact that we’re in that fourth quarter and we have to wake up, we have to stand up, and we have to speak out.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I agree. I see that sense of urgency when we talk to different speakers and church leaders from around the world, even some that we’ve interviewed have talked about the urgency that they see around the world, so it’s not just Jeff and Todd sounding the alarms, the body of Christ, the awakened body of Christ. That’s paying attention to what Bible prophecy says and it’s listening to the Holy Spirit, clearly sense that we see the day approaching and that I love how you put it, Jeff, that we’re “deep into the fourth quarter.” That’s such a great way to put it. I just can’t help but to think that our listeners right now are also sensing that urgency and wanting to share.I’m going to do a quick little plug here. You and I have a little booklet coming out in October that is a great tool for them to use. It’s the top 10 questions about Bible prophecy and the Lord’s return. That is a very handy thing to use to give to people. It’s almost like a thick track. It’s a booklet, it’s bigger than a track, but it’s an easy read. People could read it. In a lunch break, they could probably read the whole thing, but you and I are trying to equip as many people as we can deep in this fourth quarter to have tools and to be able to have those conversations with people, and most importantly, model hope and show that how truly trusting in Christ and really studying Bible prophecy gives us that hope even though we see all this crazy stuff and the convergence of all this stuff we’ve talked about happening all around us.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. Absolutely, brother, and we’ll put a link on our website to this book, it’s a little $6.99 book, it’s a great tool to give away, The Quick Reference Guide to the End Times, and this’ll be a great opportunity for you to help spread some hope to some other believers out there and just know that everything is happening according to God’s plan. God is directing and he’s orchestrating history and no plan of His can be thwarted, the Bible tells us, and so He is in the heavens, He is doing exactly as He pleases, so all is well in heaven. No one’s panicking up there, no one’s pulling the fire alarm or dialing 911. God has got everything in control and not only does He hold the world in His hands, He holds you in His hands as well.
|
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|
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Todd: Amen. Thanks for joining us today. For more information about our ministries, visit prophecyprospodcast.com. There you can find more out about Jeff’s ministry and my ministry and you can even ask us any questions you want about Bible prophecy.
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![[S2E8: Spiritual Warfare in the End Times.mp3]]
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Jeff: Welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast. I’m Jeff Kinley, along with Todd Hampson, and today we’re going to be talking about Todd’s new book, The Non-Prophets Guide to Spiritual Warfare. Todd, I’m really excited to dive into this with you because this is something that affects every single believer out there listening to our voices, and it’s something that we need to be equipped on, because Satan is real and he’s in the world today. And like, the old book says, he’s alive and well on planet Earth. So, I want to jump in. First of all, hey, how are you doing?
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Todd: I’m good, man. Doing good. Other than the wild stuff of 2020, which lines up perfectly with what we’re talking about today.
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Jeff: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, Todd and I are broadcasting remotely here. He’s over in Georgia and I’m up in the mountains of Arkansas, and so we are extremely socially distant from each other today. Though united in spirit. But Todd, I want to know, first of all, what led you to write this book on spiritual warfare, because it certainly does relate to prophecy and to the end times?
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Todd: Yeah. It’s funny. Our past three prophecy related books, without us planning it, just God sovereignly planned the launch for those, and when they launched it seemed like the perfect time for those books to launch. So, after doing The Non-Prophets Guide to the End Times, and then The Non-Prophets Guide to the Book of Revelation, another big systematic area that I saw a lot of believers are confused about, which also ties into Bible prophecy and eschatology, is the topic of spiritual warfare. And specifically how it ties into the lawlessness, the dangerous times, the philosophy of the day, the upside down thinking, the Romans one trajectory, all these things tie into spiritual warfare.
|
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|
||||
So, I really wanted to come up with, like the other two books, a simple, systematic way that showed not just Ephesians six, but the whole backstory, the whole history of spiritual warfare, how it began, who’s involved, how we’re trapped in the middle, and ultimately how we can defend against it, how we can, in a practical way, put on the spiritual armor and also specifically, how spiritual warfare plays out in the end times, both now and then in the future seven year tribulation period.
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Jeff: Absolutely. Well, let’s back it up just a little bit then and let’s talk about the beginning of this whole thing. I mean, people think about the devil, they think about this evil entity. We’ve got the caricatures of the devil that are out there, and not just visually but just mentally in our minds about what he’s like and what he does and how much power he can have over believers, and different things like that. But take us back to just the beginning here. I mean, how did Lucifer become Satan? I mean, how did the devil become the devil? What’s his backstory?
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||||
Todd: Another reason related to the book is I wanted to answer some of the pop culture confusion, so to speak. So, in pop culture, which seeps into the church at times, a lot of believers I’ve talked to think that Satan is God’s equal. Like he’s just as powerful and it’s this equal battle between good and evil, but that’s not the case. Satan is not omnipresent or omniscient. He’s a created being, one of the highest, if not the highest angelic beings that God created, and pride got to him. When you read the descriptions of Satan, there’s a few places in scripture that describe it, where he walked among the fiery stones or it sounds like he was encrusted in jewels.
|
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|
||||
I mean, he was one of the most beautiful things that God ever created, and obviously this went to his head. And what’s weird is, at least for a time, the way scripture lays it out is that the angels had a choice to make, whether it’s… Satan thought he could take on God, take God’s throne, and he convinced, the Bible says, a third of the angels to rebel with him, so those are the fallen angels. And they’re locked into their position now after that event took place, but that’s the beginning of Satan’s fall and how that whole battle began.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. A lot of times Christians get their theology from places like Star Wars, where there’s the force, the good side, the evil side kind of thing, which is just an old ancient theological heresy called dualism, is that God’s in this wrestling match with the devil. But you think about the places in scripture where Satan is basically overcome, it’s just an angel, another angel that overcomes him. We see that in Revelation as well with the great chain, and that he’s cast down on the Earth by another angel. So, I mean, angels do God’s biddings. But as you mentioned, Satan was originally an angel and he was…
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|
||||
I mean, some people have even said he was the worship leader, he dwelt above the throne and that kind of thing in heaven. I heard a pastor one time say that Satan is brilliantly stupid. In other words, he’s incredibly deceptive beyond human intelligence, that we can figure out his ways, all of them. But at the same time, he plays his hand. And so what are some of the ways that… Ephesians six talks about the schemes of the devil. What are some of the ways that Satan reveals some of his methods and the world today are believers?
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|
||||
Todd: Well, interestingly there’s one in Genesis 3:15, we’ve got the first mention of the gospel and then the seed of the woman will destroy the serpent, so to speak, that’s a paraphrase but… So, from that point on, Satan changed his strategy to try to keep the seed of the woman from arriving. And just like we study prophecy, Satan studied prophecy because he’s not all knowing, so every time God would give a new line of prophecy or a new detail added to the coming Messiah, Satan would adjust his strategy to try to change that or keep it from happening. And that explains a lot of why he’s always trying to destroy the Jewish people.
|
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Cain and Abel, I mean, the first murder was… He was trying to keep that seed from coming. And that’s one key detail that really makes a lot of the Bible make a lot more sense and tie in together. Where when you grow up in Sunday school, so to speak, you read a story about Joseph or you read a story about Daniel, and it all seems like stand-alone stories. But when you look at it through the eyes of Bible prophecy and through the connecting tissue of spiritual warfare, it all makes a lot more sense.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, it really does.
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||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: That’s incredible. So, let’s talk about… Let’s say that someone’s listening here today and they’re asking themselves a question, how do I even recognize when Satan is trying to attack me? Sometimes we blame things on Satan that probably aren’t coming from Satan.
|
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Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Satan gave me a flat tire, Satan gave me a runny nose or whatever. But I mean, obviously Satan is a command of a great host of demonic entities, and he’s the prince of the power of the air, and there’s a military hierarchical structure in that. So, how would an average believer be able to distinguish between, well, this is just life, or this is a spiritual attack on me? I mean, what might be a couple of thoughts there?
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yeah. That’s a great question, and you’re right. I see two extremes. One, there’s a demon behind every bush that’s causing my problems. And then the other, the demonic activities not active at all in my life and not coming against me at all. And like you said, we need to recognize three things. One, we’re in a fallen world. Two, we have a sin nature in our body, so it’s the enemy within. And then three, we have an active enemy trying to hurt God’s kids, trying to come against us, trying to mess up our testimony, trying to keep us from sharing the gospel and being effective in ministry. So, I think there are some ways you can prayerfully look at situations.
|
||||
|
||||
Just using a practical example. A friend of mine, years ago, was a youth pastor, and he was just having this crazy week where all kinds of bad stuff was happening to him. One of those things was, he rode a motorcycle, a guy ran into him on his motorcycle. And this was a neat lesson for me. I was a young guy at the time and I remembered hearing him wrestle with, “I have all this stuff going on. How do I know what’s spiritual warfare and what’s just fallen world?” And basically he got out and he talked to the guy, the guy was just completely… It was a complete accident, super nice guy. So, it didn’t seem like there was any way that the enemy could have been influencing this guy to hit him, so to speak. So, I think that’s one way, as we look at the people’s attitudes and what they’re doing, what they’ve been exposed to and where they’re coming from.
|
||||
|
||||
For example, I know for sure, in two of the cities, one in Minneapolis and Seattle, where we’ve seen a lot of this rioting, those have been two hot spots for occult action, new age stuff. So, it’s kind of, if there’s areas where… There’s a long, long answer to your short question. But I think if there’s areas or specific things we can identify where people have opened themselves up to dark forces and stuff like that, then I think there’s a strong likelihood that there’s some demonic activity there. For me, the only example I can think of that I’ve ever seen firsthand was on a mission trip. There was a voodoo priest in this one village where the missionaries we were working with were trying to witness, and he was coming against them at every turn. Undermining them and even doing other more shady stuff.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So, what do you think, Jeff? What are some ways that people can identify?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. I think one thing, and again as you probably mentioned, I think the fact that we have a sin nature and us, the heart is deceitfully wicked above all things, who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9. And I heard, I think it was John MacArthur say one time, that 95% of all of our temptation comes from our own hearts. And to me, it’s almost like I always think of this as like, if you took a bowling ball and were to roll it down a big hill, you wouldn’t really have to say, “Come on, bowling ball. Come on down that hill.” Gravity is going to take over. Just trust in the gravity. And I think that for my own life, I know that a majority of my temptation probably comes from my own heart because I still have that sin nature within me and it battles, flesh eating spirit.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But at the same time, there are times when just in your spirit you recognize evil. You recognize evil thoughts that are not your own. You wouldn’t, if you just sat down and said, “Well, what’s something bad I can think about?” You wouldn’t think about that. And so I think Satan, I would say his demons, would suggest things to us, whether they’re feelings, whether they’re thoughts, whether they’re actions or words, that are just demonic in nature. And so, I think that’s one way. But another way I think, is just to think about the fact that Satan and the spirit of antichrist always comes against the word of God. So, there are ways that Satan tempts us, not just to do quote/unquote “evil,” but to stray from the word of God, or to believe things that are not true in the word of God. I mean, think about it.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: He’s more subtle.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Much more subtle. Exactly as you mentioned, in the garden, when he tempted Eve, he didn’t say, “Hey, hate God.” He said, “No, no. Hey, here’s some cool fruit for you.” And there are pleasures of sin, Hebrews 11:25 says, that are just… I mean, that’s what they are. They’re pleasureful. All temptation is enjoyable to a certain extent.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: The Bible even says, “Sin is fun for a season.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, exactly. It really is.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Until it catches up with you.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Exactly. I used to tell youth groups, I’d speak to them, I’d say, “Look. Don’t let anybody tell you sins not fun. It’s a blast. But it comes with a consequence.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But, yeah. Just recognizing the overt attacks from Satan, but also the subtleties of him because he is a great deceiver and he’s good at blinding people’s eyes and that type of thing. In that vein then, Todd, let’s think about for a few minutes about just the armor of God, and about how we defend ourselves because when you look at that list of armor in Ephesians six, there’s only one offensive weapon in the whole arsenal. The rest of it is defensive. What does that tell us about the nature of the warfare that we’re in?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. I think you set it up perfectly because any good enemy knows his enemies weaknesses. So, Satan or his demons, like you said, whatever is around us that we can’t see, studies our weaknesses and tries to come against us. And that’s really what the spiritual armor is. It’s different aspects of protection. Like you said, it’s all defensive except for the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, which Jesus aptly used when he was tempted. So many places, he showed us how to fight the spiritual battles. But, yeah. Those are set up to protect, the breastplate of righteousness protects our heart and our emotions, and it’s God’s righteousness imputed to us, but it’s also our righteous actions as we put distance between us and temptation. But like you not been on this earth long enough, we know we have to put distance between us and temptation.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: We can’t just say, “Oh, I’m a Christian. I’m immune to it all.” No. Satan knows our weaknesses, and we have to be wise and learn how to protect against those things. And another thing, just related to what you said before, is I think to one huge advantage over Satan is that we have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us. So there are times, like you said, when you can recognize in your spirit, “Oh, that is spiritual warfare. There’s no doubt.” Like you said, with the thinking, when you think about the helmet of salvation, if you have… Here’s a practical example. If you have a sudden, and you alluded to this a little bit, if you have a sudden just evil thought pop into your head, that was nowhere on your radar, wasn’t triggered by anything and it’s not in your normal psyche, that is, in my opinion, that’s a clear indication that that is overt, spiritual warfare. The enemy trying to plant some seeds there.
|
||||
|
||||
And the more you recognize that, the more you can defend against it. And one verse I love is, “Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” We can’t bind the devil. We can’t. But we can resist him and he will flee from us. The scripture promises us that. And again, the best example we see is Jesus being tempted in the desert. Over and over and over again he stood up to temptation by using the word of God. So, that means we’ve got to know God’s word. We can’t fight with a sword unless we pick it up.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s exactly right. And I think it’s the passage in Luke where it says, “The devil left him until an opportune time.” So, I mean, just because we resist the devil once, doesn’t mean… He’s not going to go running away with his tail tucked between his legs and say, “Well, I guess I won’t come back to that guy again.” No, he’s going to come back. He’s going to look for an open window if you shut that door at some point. And you mentioned the whole idea of knowing the word of God and those passages that Christ quoted to Satan were all from the book of Deuteronomy. And it’s amazing to me that… Because I don’t think about Deuteronomy when I think about battling Satan. That’s not [crosstalk] Exactly. I’m not running to Leviticus. But Christ did that and it’s not just the fact that he quoted Bible verses, because Satan knows those verses too.It’s the fact that he was obeying those verses as he was quoting them. It was just an extension of his heart obedience to the Father in that. And so, I tell people about scripture memory. It’s like scripture memory is great, but it’s like having a sword. I mean, it’s in the sheath when it’s memorized. When you obey it, you take it out of the sheath and you use it against the enemy, and yes, we can resist. I mean, people… I hear Christians all the time in this defeatist mode and it’s almost like life is too great for them, and relationships and everything else has gone on. It’s like, no. You’ve got the God of the universe living inside you.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And we really do have access. It doesn’t mean we don’t have problems or that we won’t struggle, but it does mean we can overcome anything that Satan fires against us. And I mean, like you said, we’ve both lived long enough on this earth to know that through things we struggle with individually and families and with ministry. And I’m telling you, there have been dark days, but God is always there, his light always shines. And if we run to his word, then Satan has to flee because he can’t handle that sharp two-edged sword that we draw on him.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And no victory is really a victory we’re celebrating, unless there’s been struggle involved. And Paul says that outright in Ephesians six. “We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, powers and rulers of this dark age.” And that term wrestling, it’s a close hand to hand combat. It’s not a, “Hey, I’m going to fire some missiles at you from a hundred miles away.” It’s in your face fighting. And that’s what I love about… Well, that’s why I spent most of the book unpacking the history, and that’s what I love about Ephesians six, is how practical it is. When my wife and I are doing some premarital counseling right now with some family members, and my wife and I, before we got married, we did some premarital counseling. And we looked… One activity we did that was really eye-opening, the pastor had us read first Corinthians 13, the love chapter separately.
|
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And he had us each write down… Look at each of those characteristics, and he had us write down which area we felt we were weakest at, and which area we felt our future spouse was weakest at. And what was mind opening, number one, my wife didn’t kill me for putting anything down about her. But we both picked the same thing for each of us. So, we knew us well enough. But to me, that was really eyeopening because I didn’t realize that was a weakness that I had, until I looked at those characteristics. And I think that’s one practical thing we can use Ephesians six, when we look at the different pieces of spiritual armor, and we think through those, we can say, “Oh, okay. I’m weak. My emotions get the best of me, and I fall into sin or I get offended easily. Or my thinking, I get caught up in the wrong thinking,” and that’s the helmet of salvation.
|
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|
||||
Or, “I’m not bold in sharing my faith when I have the opportunity and I don’t have the shoes of the gospel of peace. My ground is kind of shaky because I don’t feel confident to share my faith.” And we do that in different ways, but that’s a whole different topic. But, anyway. You can look at those pieces of armor and like any soldier you have to train to get better. So, we’re going to get better and better the more we know our own weaknesses, and the more we understand each piece of the armor. And ultimately, the more we understand the enemy’s tactics, the better defensive we’ll be. And one key thing is, we always have to keep our guard up. There’s a verse that says, “Let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall,” because brother, as soon as you think you’ve got it, that’s when you’re going to get knocked on your butt.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. And many times Satan’s… If you think about, again using the example of Jesus, Satan’s attacks on us come many times after a great victory. It’s not just during times when we’re not doing well. I mean, Jesus had just been baptized. I mean, literally just been baptized. The Holy Spirit descends as a dove. The voice of the Father is my son. I’m well pleased in him. And immediately says the Spirit led him into the wilderness. So, many times after a huge victory or an answered prayer or whatever, we tend, like you said, to let our guard down. And to me, one of the things about spiritual warfare, Todd, is that it’s an ongoing thing, but at the same time, the more we pose a threat to Satan’s kingdom, the more he will attack us. I think some Christians are almost safe in some ways, in that they’re not really trying anything for God, and we need to attempt great things for God and to think about what am I doing for God with my life?
|
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||||
How can I help the cause of the gospel to advance the Kingdom of Christ on this Earth? And that may be as simple as, I’m going to attend this Bible study. Well, try it, and just watch and see how many ways Satan tries to keep you from that Bible study. Every single little excuse possible he’ll try to keep you from it, all the way up to you’re actually trying to do some sort of ministry and you’re going to feel it. You’re going to feel the attack emotionally, mentally, physically possibly. And in many other ways that he will attack you, so you’re you’re right, Todd. We have to keep all the armor on. We can’t just walk around with a helmet on.
|
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|
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Todd: Yeah.
|
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|
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Jeff: We’ve got to have the breast plate too and stuff.
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Todd: He’s going to attack you where you’re weakest.
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Jeff: That’s right. That’s exactly right. He’s going to look for that chink in your armor to try to find somewhere, to get to you. And here’s what I love, Todd, about this book like your other books, is that it’s so creatively done. It’s well-written, it’s incredibly illustrated throughout. I mean, it’s entertaining, with the sidebars and the illustrations and stuff. And it really puts biblical truth in a new language that people can immediately identify with. It’s like you’ve bought the ship up to the dock. Okay. And so, the gangplank is not so long that anybody’s going to fall over the side when they walk on this thing.
|
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So, I just want to thank you for writing this book. And I received obviously a copy from the publisher because we’re co-authors together on some other things, but also because I want to promote it and I have promoted it. But for some reason I got two copies. So, I get a chance to gift some to my kids as well. I passed on some of your other books to them as well. But it’s an amazing book. What would you say to people just in closing about just spiritual warfare and maybe inspiration to really get into a book like this?
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yeah. Two things. One, at the end of the book, I talk about spiritual warfare in the end times. And like I said, one reason we decided to do this podcast now is because here as we head towards the end of 2020 and the craziness of the election coming up, and I mean, in our gut, we know we’ve got a few crazy months ahead of us, no matter how things turn out.
|
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|
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Jeff: That’s true. Very true.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And just other things we’ve seen in 2020 is definitely clearly spiritual warfare. The enemy knows his time is short. We don’t know how short, but he’s… If you back an animal into the corner, they’re going to start lashing out and that’s what we’re seeing. So, it’s very practical and gives us insight to the times we’re living in right now, as the tribulation shadows cast on us. But the main reason I wrote it, and with all the books, is I want to give people hope. The more we see, God planned all this. God understands all this, is systematically in his love letter to us, he’s still got his hand on the wheel. He’s not letting go. I think of it like a river. We went whitewater rafting a couple of years ago on our 20th anniversary on the Snake River up in Wyoming, it was amazing. And we jumped out of the boat at one time, the water was freezing, even though it was June, but we could swim up behind the boat and then back down the boat or over towards the bank.
|
||||
|
||||
But the whole time that river was still taking us downstream. So, even in the midst of crazy politics and crazy stuff going on in our culture and in our personal lives, this river is going somewhere to a designated end, and God knows exactly where that is. And he has promised never to leave us, never to forsake us. Like you said, Christians, we shouldn’t be defeated in our thinking, in our attitude. We should be the most joyful, courageous, alive people on Earth. People should see us, how we live and how we weather storms like we’re seeing now and be attracted to the cross and want to know why we can live in such a way, even though it seems like the world’s falling apart around us.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen. That’s so true. And I was thinking about, just yesterday, I was watching a college football game that I had recorded, because I was away this week and couldn’t watch it. And you know what, Todd, it’s funny, because I already knew the outcome of the game. I knew that we won the game. Some of these I don’t want to know ahead of time. I already knew we won the game. And so as the game is going on, when there was a setback or a fumble or an interception or whatever, I’m thinking to myself, it’s okay. It’s all right because we win in the end. You already know this. And the question is not whether or not the Kingdom of God is going to win this thing.
|
||||
|
||||
The question is whether or not Christians are going to choose to get on board with that, and to be a part of that winning team and to participate in the victory, because God wants us all to be victorious over sin, over temptation, over the devil. And though ultimately we definitely are going to win, along the way we can also have some key victories as well, and that’s what this book helps people do. It helps them have the equipment and the training and the motivation to be able to know how to overcome Satan and spiritual warfare. So, thank you for writing this book. And I look forward to seeing how God’s going to use it in people’s lives as we move forward.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Well, hey. This has been another episode of the Prophecy Pros podcast. We thank you so much for tuning in, and as always, if you want to ask questions, go to the website and you can contact Jeff and I and ask questions there. Please share this with as many people as you can. Tell others about it. The podcast is picking up steam and it’s really hitting a nerve in a way that we didn’t fully expect. So, it’s been neat to see. So, until next time, go to prophecyprospodcast.com and we’ll talk to you soon.
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Jeff: Pay for more resources and show notes, how to contact us, how to ask questions, go to prophecyprospodcast.com. Hey, we’ll see you next episode. Or maybe not. Maybe we’ll see you in the air.
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![[S2E9: Technology of the Tribulation.mp3]]
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Todd: Hey, Todd here. And you’re listening to the Prophecy Pros podcast on the Edifi Podcast Network. Today, we’re going to talk about a really interesting and relevant topic. It’s about technology in the end times and what we’re seeing develop before us today.
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Jeff: Okay Todd, so a lot of things are happening out there in the world right now, a lot of technology, a lot of innovation going on, even a lot of inventions. We think that the last century was the century for inventions, but more things are happening all the time and they relate to Bible prophecy and really what’s going to happen in the end-times as revelation begins to unfold. So we’ll tackle some of those things today because you and I both, we get a lot of questions about people asking us about the mark of the beast and about artificial intelligence and all these things, and how do they currently affect our lives and how might they affect the lives of those who are living in that actual last generation during the tribulation. And so it causes people to kind of want to back off right now from sometimes technology, it’s kind of like when our grandparents saw the car, something, or great-grandparents saw the car being invented and there’s like, we got to keep horses, we can’t do the car, that kind of thing. So I want to strike a balance there and have an intelligent response to that.
|
||||
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||||
Todd: Yeah, that’s great. I remember reading an old newspaper article when the steam engine train was being developed and people were freaking out, talking about the breakneck speed of 30 miles an hour, and they were worried about your skin falling off and I’m exaggerating, but the article was something along those lines that it really freaked people out. And we see some really interesting things developing in our day. Some potentially scary things, but that’s why it’s important to study Bible prophecy and see what scripture says, because number one, we can know from the timing of certain events, whether we have to even be concerned about something or not. And also even though that the Bible doesn’t mention, hey, look for this specific technology as the tribulation nears, we can just use logic and study scripture and say, wow, these are some components that are lining up that could be whether it’s the mark of the beast or the weapons that are used in the tribulation period or that kind of thing.
|
||||
|
||||
So that’s what we’re going to talk about today. We’re going to talk about some specific technologies and we’re not technology gurus beyond doing what we have to do for our careers. At least I’m not, but we studied enough of it in the books we’ve written and in the talks we’ve given that we’ve had to look at some current events and current technologies and answer people’s questions about how it lines up with Bible prophecy and that sort of thing.
|
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Jeff: Yeah. So as we look at Revelation and obviously when people read Revelation, they try to imagine how could this happen. How could these things take place? Well, let’s just begin in Revelation six, with the first seal judgment. The Bible says that a fourth of the earth, as a result of the wars that are going to take place with famine, with pestilence and disease, and that type of thing are going to be wiped off the planet of the earth. And if that happened today, tie that will be close to 2 billion people being killed. So what’s going on technologically from a warfare standpoint that could potentially relate to that? What are we seeing here?
|
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|
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Todd: Well, obviously, there’s been an explosion of technology just the past 100 years with travel and everything else, and also nuclear weaponry. And even recently, you and I were just talking about an article that we saw about Elon Musk and Space X, him helping the military of America develop a new weapon that carries an immense payload and can deliver it within an hour. And I’m sure that’s in response to Russia and China working on the same kind of thing. So it’s almost like the nuclear buildup that the world saw in the fifties, that’s really on steroids right now with hypersonic weapons and that kind of thing. All of which makes the things that we read in the Book of Revelation possible, which was not possible even a 100 or 200 years ago.
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Jeff: That’s so true. You think about it, how things are going to, I mean, Jesus talked about these things, these events being like birth pangs and of course, contractions for a woman that they began, but they become greater in intensity and frequency as it leads up to the birth. And so, I mean, how could these wars happened so rapidly? Well, a possibility would be something like a super sonic weapon that could reach across the world. And of course, if we end up having a technology, they’re going to have it too eventually. So that’s kind of how these things happen. And that also kind of plays into, people have asked about the role of America in Bible prophecy, what happens to us afterwards. And I mean, there’s a lot of speculation and we don’t know exactly, but we’re not mentioned specifically in prophecy. And that could be as a result of not only the rapture, but of what happens to us militarily after that as well. So, there’s military options that are out there on the table right now. It’s not something you wake up in the morning and think about, when you think about the tribulation or whatever. But what are some other things that are out there right now that are happening?
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|
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Todd: You know, really interesting this year, and of course people have been paying hyper close attention to it is different technologies related around things that could become part of the mark of the beast. You know, when you read that in Revelation 13, the beast out of the sea, and it talks about the beast out of the earth, which, just to cut it short, that’s basically talking about the false prophet who helps institute this mark of the beast for the antichrist. And when we read that, when you carefully study it, there are a few things that have to be in place for that to occur. One is a cashless system, for sure. You would suspect some kind of massive database centers that can house all this. Some kind of means to track it all digitally and also something, some kind of mark technology, whether it’s, when you read that word, it’s kind of like the mark is on the skin so it seems like some kind of a tattoo kind of thing versus a chip under the skin.
|
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|
||||
But even right now, we’re seeing quantum dot tattoos that literally are tattoos, but also convey digital data. And what’s weird is, all the emerging technology you see, it’s eerily similar to the mark of the beast. It scans your forehead or your hand, even Amazon recently had a recent thing come out. You wrote about that in a book we have coming out, Jeff, about this hand scanner that they have. And so that’s a long-winded answer, but basically we’re seeing all kinds of technologies that could play into what the eventual mark of the beast is going to look like.
|
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|
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Jeff: Well, and then go back to the whole military motif. Speaking of missiles, I mean, they have, one of my sons was in charge of a missile program in the military at one point. And when you track missiles, you can know where they’re going based on their trajectory. So you can pretty much pinpoint their ending point based upon where they’re going right now. While we look at what’s happening with technology in this and we see that, as you said, a cashless society, that’s where the world is moving towards. And it begins with the whole idea that, well, first of all, it begins with convenience, obviously. I mean, you don’t want to dig around in your pocket for quarters when you can just do a credit card, but it goes beyond that. Now with COVID, COVID has accelerated that because now with the coronavirus, money is technically dirty, it can carry these diseases and it travels around.
|
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|
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That’s been the talk for many years about how dirty money is, but at the same time, because we’re introducing at the same time, new options, technologically, in terms of buying and selling, then it just rapidly accelerates that process. So, we went from money to credit cards to the chip in the card kind of thing and it’s really moving towards that way. I read a statistic about a month ago, where it says that nine out of 10 millennials use digital payment options for 90% of their transactions. So it’s like the generation coming up is not even, they’re not writing checks, they’re hardly ever carrying cash anymore. So cash is just something that’s just gradually going off. I think 40, 41 to 48% of all transactions in America right now are digital transactions. So we’re moving that way.
|
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|
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Now that in itself, Todd, is not an evil thing, it’s not something that’s necessarily satanic. However, it is something that easily syncs with, I think, what the antichrist is going to capitalize on. And of course you mentioned the smart tattoos and they’ve got living tattoos that they’re like genetically programmed living cells that respond to your skin, graph on tattoos that are these wearable tattoos, that monitor things like heart rate, body responses, some of these things can communicate to your phone as well. So if there was some sort of, like say nanotech tattoo that measure the activity of your muscles, your nerve cells, that could even be used as well to, depending on, are you a worshiper of the beast, are you a true follower and your heart rate going up while you’re saying this kind of thing, almost like a lie detector kind of thing, who knows?
|
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|
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It’s interesting. There are some researchers at Harvard and MIT who have an epidermal tattoo, basically it’s what it is, but it measures things like glucose levels and dehydration, stuff like that. And all this stuff, interesting how a lot of this technology, a lot of the stuff that comes in that threatens to control our lives, all begins in medicine. It begins with technology in the science, “scientific field” and it’s justified, used that way, but it’s interesting. They’re calling their project, the Dermal Abyss.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Wow.
|
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|
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Jeff: Just thought, Whoa, that is just, that’s too close for comfort, but as you mentioned, the Amazon biometric scanning thing, and they’re calling it Amazon One, they’re already getting ready to test it now up in Seattle. So all that to say, we don’t know what the mark of the beast is going to be, but it makes sense that would be something that would be easily applied and something that people could just for convenience sake, for protection in terms of people not stealing your bank card, that kind of thing.
|
||||
|
||||
So there’s many, many reasons why I think it will be something like that. But, I do believe, as you mentioned, Todd, it’s going to be on the hand, the Bible uses the Greek word epi, which means on, and the word charagma, mark, the word for mark there is a word that was used for the image on a coin or for sometimes just a regular tattoo. Sometimes soldiers would tattoo themselves with the insignia or the name of their commanding officer, someone they were in subjection to.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Wow.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: How interesting is that.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That fits.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It totally fits. So we don’t know what it’s going to be, but certainly technology is pointing that way, is leaning that way. And however that ends up playing out, we do know it’s going to happen.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And along with that too, another technology that kind of integrates with the same thing is DNA manipulation. Like even now I was reading a couple of articles yesterday about some of the COVID vaccines that they’re trying to develop. In the past all vaccines have been, you take basically in layman’s terms, you take dead virus, put it in somebody or semi, weakened virus, put it in somebody and then their body builds up immunity to it. Well, now, from what I’m reading is for the first time, some of the potential vaccines are actually using the CRISPR technology where you literally can change a person’s DNA. And so that, to me, that’s a little telling as well, because, and this is somewhat speculation, but I think it lines up as well. We notice in Revelation, whoever gets the mark of the beast later on gets these sores all over their body, only those who got the mark of the beast.
|
||||
|
||||
Now, of course, that could just be God’s judgment. Hey, you took the mark, here’s your punishment, but it is possible that it’s also some kind of DNA malfunction. It could be perhaps with the mark of the beast, part of the selling point is, hey, this will make you stronger, better beyond your current humanity. That’s, we’re seeing a big push for that now, transhumanism and people integrating all kinds of technology and weird biometric stuff with their bodies. So if that trend continues, then there could, I believe also be some kind of a DNA component. And there’s a few other verses and aspects of scripture that kind of line up with that in the end-times as well.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s one reason why a lot of Christians are very hesitant about any sort of vaccine that is going to be proposed. And that’s not necessarily means it’s going to be like a DNA altering thing, but it’s out there. Another thing that we should mention, because I’ve been approached about this too, because I actually saw this on a program, a “Christian” program, that people are speculating that the antichrist will obtain Satan’s actual DNA and he’ll use that to replicate that DNA and to make it a mandatory vaccine so that when you get the mark of the beast, it’s going to be this vaccine that you’re getting actually Satan’s DNA. Now how in the world you would get an angelic being’s DNA when he’s a spiritual creature, I don’t know how that works, but it’s just kind of wild speculations like that we need to reject, but not be naive about the other as well.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, and that’s a caution, Jeff and I always want to share is, and we try to point out when we are speculating a little bit or looking at trends, beyond everything else we say, please make sure what you believe lines up with scripture and is tested by scripture.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Even the timing, one encouraging thing of, and this comes into studying the timing of the rapture and that kind of thing. One of my daughter’s friends, when COVID first hit, was reading all these real speculative articles about, oh, we’re about to take the Mark of the beast and all this stuff. And she was really, really scared. So my daughter came to me kind of nervous was like, “Is this something we should worry about?” I could see the concern in her eyes. And I was like, “No.” We know that from scripture that doesn’t happen to the midpoint. We’ll be long gone by then. So whatever we’re seeing now, we don’t have to fear. Should we be informed? Yes. Should we learn as much as we can about a vaccine before we take it? Sure.
|
||||
|
||||
So there’s considerations there, but all that just to say, yeah, please, anytime you come across something that’s super extreme or super speculative and states it as a fact, automatically that should put up some red flags where, all right, let me go see what the Bible actually says about that. If it does not square with scripture, throw it out.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yep. Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Speaker 3: This podcast is part of the Edifi Podcast Network. Edifi is a faith inspiring app that brings together thousands of the best Christian podcasts in one place for your listening enjoyment. Cut through the noise and grow your faith by diving into the world’s top Christian podcasts today. Download the Edifi app for free from the app store or Google Play, or by going to edifi.app. That’s E-D-I-F-I.app.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I was thinking earlier, just in this whole discussion taught about how the Bible says that Jesus says that Satan is the rule of the world. Paul said, he’s the God of this world. And scripture paints him as the Prince of the power of the air. So, I mean, even when Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world, Jesus didn’t say you can’t do that, you don’t own them. No, he rejected the offer, but he recognized Satan’s legitimate ownership because he is the God of the world. All that to say is that Satan is going to manipulate everything regarding technology and advancements in weaponry, everything that he can do to bring to bear his agenda for planet earth as well. And I think that it’s important for us to not be afraid of technology, but like you said, be discerning and be informed.
|
||||
|
||||
Yes, we drive on the roads. That’s advancements, transportation technology. We use modern devices, our phones and things like that. And I think Christians should take advantage of every single option that they have to use technology for the glory of God, for the enjoyment of themselves and family. There’s nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, just know that when we get to Revelation, then a lot of these technological advances I think are going to bear into play. At the same time, Todd, there’s going to be a renewal of an age of supernatural miracles and occurrences and in divine judgments of God. And I definitely don’t, and I know you don’t either, don’t want to try to explain away the things in Revelation by just saying they’re going to be technological things. There are divine supernatural things that cannot be explained by technology. But it brings me to a verse over in Matthew 24, that you, you quoted here earlier about what would happen if God just kind of like removed himself from the Book of Revelation and just let humanity go at it. What would happen then?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, I mean it literally Matthew 24:22 says, “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.” So yeah, God puts a limit on the timeframe, otherwise there’d be nobody left to save. We would literally, in that future seven year tribulation period, we would literally destroy all of humanity. And that’s an important verse to point out because some people act as if you’re tough enough, you can get through the tribulation or the first three and a half years of the tribulation isn’t that bad. No, it is hell on earth. The worst thing you can imagine, we literally will be destroying ourselves. And like you said, supernatural judgements from God, all kinds of supernatural demonic activity happening with the locus from the abyss and the 200 million demonic horsemen. I mean, it’s going to be crazier than any Chronicles of Narnia or Avengers movie you’ve ever seen, but it’s going to be horrifically real.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. And because we’re in this age where there’s a quantum flow of technology and it’s just happening in milliseconds, I don’t understand how you can Zoom with someone in the Philippines or in China or whatever and it’s in real time, that blows my mind. But that also plays into Revelation as well, because as you think about how in the world, first of all, how is every eye going to see Jesus? Revelation 1:7. That could be purely supernatural, or it could be a combination of supernatural. And the fact that guess what, when something on the earth happens like this, it goes live to Twitter. And in a matter literally of minutes, every single person knows about it that has access to technology. But with this flow of information that we have right now, we think about how people know more, but they know less. We’ve got more access to information, but we’re not any really any smarter.
|
||||
|
||||
And so you would think that we would be, from a humanistic standpoint, the continuing to elevate humanity in terms of understanding, but a recent study among high school students, they ask what Sodom and Gomorrah was, they were, “Aren’t they’re husband and wife?” They’re husband and wife, well, you might be closer than you think on that one. But then they ask is Joan of Arc? And they said, “Wasn’t that Noah’s wife?”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Wow.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And so, I mean, there’s a lot of information out there, but people aren’t necessarily availing themselves of it. And so in terms of speculation, even concerning the technology that what we’re talking about right now, we just want to encourage people to, first of all, exercise caution whenever you’re reading articles and clickbait things that relate to the end-times. Go back to the scripture and study people who have established platforms in the area of Bible prophecy. And just because it’s a popular book, just because it’s a popular speaker or podcaster doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re going according to scripture. So we just want to be real careful about that. And we do too. Todd and I, we do a lot of research. We check ourselves, we sometimes check ourselves with other people say, Hey, what do you think about this and get feedback. So we want to make sure, even as we discuss this, that we’re staying on course, or we’re not getting out into the rough.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. So true. So true and just a wise way to do it. And honestly, the only reason we even highlight it is because of all the other sign trends that we see. Israel being a nation again. We wouldn’t even be talking about this, if there wasn’t other main, thoroughly biblical clear indicators that the Lord’s preparing the way for the end-times. And I’m going to point out there too, is another reason we ha we highlighted is, prophecy doesn’t happen in a vacuum. When you look at when Christ came the first time, it was in the fullness of time, and that had to do with everything. Everything was prepared just right. The Roman road system, the timing he came and the cultural conditions and all that. So God, doesn’t just typically he could, he’s God, he can do whatever he wants. But typically from how we’ve seen him work is, there’s two types of time, that Kronos time and that Kairos time, the appointed times and the chronological times. God uses the chronology of natural time and natural developments to intersect with his preordained plan.
|
||||
|
||||
So just to piggyback off what you were saying with Zoom and the whole world seeing Jesus come, we also read about something similar in Revelation 11, with the two witnesses when they’re killed. It says every eye will see them. How does that happen? Like you said, yeah, they could have some kind of worldwide vision where everybody sees it, but more than likely it has to do with the technology of the day. And we’re seeing some things, there’s an article I read today. It says Space X is manufacturing 120 Starlink internet satellites per month. And I think this year, they are launching 19 of them into space. So basically what they’re trying to do is make a global internet that is accessible literally everywhere on the globe.
|
||||
|
||||
So if you’re familiar with China’s credit system, how they it’s like big brother on steroids, you can’t do anything without them watching and knowing what you’re doing from throwing a cigarette butt on the ground to jaywalking, they know what you do. So you can only imagine if, envision a world where the rapture’s happened, war breaks out, it’s craziness, some strong man rises to power and controls everything to bring order out of chaos. Of course, he’s going to harness any technology he has at the time and extend it globally if he’s able. And that’s kind of what we see when we read scripture.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Well, and if that’s true and if Satan through the antichrist ends up having some sort of control or management over the internet, meaning just the air basically in terms of broadcast. And I’ve never had this thought until just this moment. The antichrist is going to gather on the battlefield and gather the armies of the world. It says to make war against him who sits on the horse, against Jesus Christ. And really the diluting influence that is ultimately in Satan himself. He still thinks, even after he tries one more time in Revelation 12 to overcome heaven, he still thinks he can beat God. If that’s true and if the antichrist is somehow in charge of the internet and social media, all the other stuff, then he would want cameras to be there. He would want this to be broadcast to the world, to see the final defeat of that Galilean carpenter that thinks he can take me out. And so, Todd, that really could be a scenario that he is in charge of that and that he really wants the world to see it.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yeah. That’s a great point, man. That’s pretty profound. Again, in his pride and his self-delusion, he thinks he’s literally going to be God and will convince millions of people and armies to think that they could do the same. So yeah, absolutely. Talk about delusion. Matter of fact, Jeff and I have a resource called the top 10 questions about the end-times that you guys can pick up and we answer some of those questions and it’s a really small booklet, inexpensive as well. You can buy them in bulk, give them away. It’s almost like a thick track, so to speak, that answers some of the key questions that people have about the end-times and our hope is that that little booklet gets in the hands of small group leaders, pastors, really anybody who, right now, more than any time I can think of, Jeff, people are asking them the big questions about, are we in the end-times? Are we heading for the end-times? What should I expect? What should I do practically right now? So this little booklet helps answer those questions.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Todd, it really does. And I’ll just tell you, just from a practical standpoint, my 20 let’s see, how old is my son? He’s 27 years old. Him and his wife, they work with young life and so they are working with high school students and that type of thing. And he was up here this past weekend for a family event and I put two books in his hand. I said, you need this little booklet here called the Quick Reference Guide to the End Times to talk about some of the questions that your students, your high school boys, high school girls are going to ask you about what’s going on. And then I gave them another book called the Non-Prophet’s Guide to Spiritual Warfare. You definitely need to have this to take your kids through this, to help them with spiritual warfare by Todd Hampson.So anyway, these are just practical tools and that’s the great thing about it. I mean, the books that we’re writing contain a lot of theology and a lot of truth, hundreds and hundreds of scriptures to back up what we’re writing about, but in the end, it’s transferable. That’s the great thing about it, Todd, is these books are very transferable and you can put them in the hands of someone, even someone who may not be that familiar with Bible prophecy. And it’ll be a great way for them to dip their toe in the water.
|
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|
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Todd: Yeah. We’re really trying to put handles on this topic for the everyday Christian. We know there’s a lot of great books out there by fantastic people that are way smarter than I am, but we really want the average everyday person to be able to have confidence that what we’re giving them, what we’re talking about, what we’re writing about in books that they can take it to the bank and verify it in scripture, and also share it with other people because we do believe there’s kind of a grassroots effort right now, or grassroots movement, so to speak, where people are really asking these big questions about all the things that we’ve studied about for years.
|
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|
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Jeff: Well, Hey, I hope that’s been encouragement to you guys. Just kind of taking a thumbnail sketch of what’s going on technologically speaking, and how it relates to the end-times, and want to encourage you to go to ProphecyProspodcast.com, and you can check out other episodes that are there on your podcast app. Subscribe to this podcast that way you’ll get notifications about when a new podcast is released. And we’ve got some incredible guests that we’re interviewing during the season and we really want you guys to take advantage of that. Also, feel free to send your questions to us. Todd and I get emails all the time, every week, sometimes every day questions that people are sending us and we get to those as soon as we can. So be patient because we’re kind of working our way through list here, but we want to answer your questions.
|
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|
||||
We want to encourage you and point you to some great resources. And also, Todd, I just want to say this real quick that you and I are a part of sponsoring a prophecy conference that is going to be held in Branson, Missouri in April of 2021. And we are very, very excited about this thing. It’s going to be up there. Branson’s incredible place, but we’re calling it the Ozark Mountain Prophecy Summit. And it’s going to be April 15th through the 17th, through the 18th rather. And joining Todd, myself, we’re going to be Dr. David Reagan, Billy Crone and Gary Stearman. It’s just going to be an all-star cast. We’re going to hit some great topics and Branson is a fantastic place to bring your family. There’s incredible excursions we’re going to take. We’re going to go to the sight and sound theater and see the play Jesus, which is going to be amazing. So anyway, check that out. The Ozarkmountainprophecysummit.com. I think is the website there, but you can get more information about that there.
|
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|
||||
Todd: And just think about how everyone’s been cooped up. That’s going to be a perfect time for people to get out and finally go do something and it’s going to be an amazing event. It’s going to be a just incredible time where we’re speaking, but we’re also having a lot of one-on-one time with people and hanging out with people. So it’s really going to be a special time. So we encourage everybody to check that out. We’d love to see you there. It’d be fantastic.Jeff: Well, once again, thanks a lot from myself and from Todd. Prophecy Pros podcast here at bringing this to you each week, because we want to give you confidence and courage and hope in this perilous world that we’re living in right now. So God bless you. And thanks for listening.
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Todd: Thank you so much for listening. We’re really excited you found us. Make sure to subscribe if you have not done so already. And if you liked what you heard, please let us know by leaving a review, that does us a huge favor and helps us out a lot. For more resources or to ask questions or find more about our ministries go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And a major thank you, major shout out to Harvest House Publishers for helping us with this podcast.
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![[BONUS: Aftershocks.mp3]]
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![[BONUS: Ozark Mountain Prophecy Summit Recap.mp3]]
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![[S3E10: Billy Hallowell: Spiritual Warfare and the Demonic.mp3]]
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Jeff: Welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast. Today, we’re going to be talking about a brand new book that is so exciting. It’s called, Playing With Fire, by our good friend, Billy Hallowell.
|
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|
||||
We tell you a little bit about Billy here. Most of you guys know who he is, but let me just refresh your memory. Billy Hallowell is an ex, a seasoned journalist. He’s been in media, public speaking and journalism for many, many years, more than 15 years. He’s been a featured political commentator and a cultural commentator for textbooks articles. You’ve been on radio and TV, everything from Fox and Friends, the Washington Post, Daily Caller, you name it. Billy’s been there. He’s just kind of one of these guys he’s omnipresent in media. Okay. We’re glad to have Billy on the show. He’s a great friend of ours and Billy welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast.
|
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|
||||
Billy: Thanks for having me. Omnipresent, that sounds almost scary to have to be in multiple places.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Well, we’re talking about the supernatural today, so it really makes sense.
|
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|
||||
Todd: I love it.
|
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|
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Billy: Well, thanks for having me.
|
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|
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Jeff: Absolutely. We’re very excited here. Listen, we want to talk about a window that you get around a lot. One of the things that just by the nature of your job is that you get a chance to interact with a lot of different people on a lot of different levels, from a lot of different backgrounds because of your journalism experience. I’m interested to know, as you begin to think about this book, Playing With Fire, and we’re talking about the demonic and satanic activity in the world today, what kind of led you to this topic? Was there anything out there experientially that kind of sparked your mind or kind of how’d you get going on this thing?
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Yeah. I’m going to be really honest with you. I’m going to tell you that this topic, it’s one of these topics that has sort of haunted me. Okay. Pun intended. It’s something that as a Christian, obviously, my whole life reading scripture, knowing what’s in scripture, understanding what the Bible tells us. We encounter these stories of evil and we encounter obviously a great deal of description of who Satan is. Obviously, the manifestation of evil. We see the stories of Jesus healing, but I would encounter it in terms of working as an editor and a writer at The Blaze. When I was there, there’d be stories that would emerge and they’d be stories of people claiming to have experienced possession and listen. These are stories that obviously I believe it’s possible, but as a journalist, my thing is, okay, in every particular instance, I want details and I want to be able to prove that it’s true.
|
||||
|
||||
I know it’s possible, but I want to know that somebody is telling me the truth. I would encounter these stories. I found them very interesting and many times really compelling. There was an offer a couple of years ago at a publisher that I was working with to write a book about the demonic and to do it from a journalistic perspective, through a Christian lens, but to sort of pull the details apart and look at it and at the time prayed about it. It just didn’t feel right. When you pray about something and you know you shouldn’t do it. I backed away from the project and it’s funny how God does things. I think spiritually at the time, I really wasn’t in a place or prepared to tackle it.It’s a very tough, difficult dark topic. When this opportunity came again, it was almost like Final Destination. It just kept finding me. I wasn’t even looking to write a book about this. I was trying to write a political book, a faith in politics book and long story short, the publisher was like, “I don’t want this book, but we’d love to talk with you about other concepts.” They made an offer on this book and I didn’t even fill out a proposal, which you know how rare that is. They made this offer.
|
||||
|
||||
I prayed about it for two months. I sat on it and I thought, “Do I want to dive into this? I know it’s an important topic, but is it something I want to do?” I have to tell you that in addition to prayer and feeling like it’s what God was pushing me to do, I started to realize that Christians are not talking about this topic in many circles. You kind of have that crowd of, there’s a demon under every rock. Then you have the other crowd of, we’re never going to talk about this at all. Unfortunately, too many churches have been silent on it. I found it to be something that really, I felt, needed to be explored.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Your journalistic background, I’m sure came into play. Just hearing those stories and knowing you have scripture as your base, but wanting to know more of the details and how does this play out in our day and that kind of thing. It’s funny. The Lord led me to write, The Nonprofits Guide to Spiritual Warfare, at the same time your book was being released. Actually, Ron Rhodes has a book called, Spiritual Warfare in the End Times. We kind of ran from it, but God tracked us down. Maybe God is really wanting people to be aware of this again. We see it ramping up. Even nonbelievers are thinking about it. We see it all throughout pop culture, whether it’s movies or music. Actually, there’s a lot of occultic things popping up with musicians and in that kind of environment and stuff. Why do you think pop culture is so obsessed with the demonic?
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: It’s such an interesting question. It’s something that I deal with in Playing With Fire, and I’m sure you looked at it too. As you go through and you look, culture’s separating from God and we know this. We’re watching culture really devolve at a rate that I didn’t know was possible. It just keeps happening and keeps moving and keeps going. At the same time, you have a Hollywood completely obsessed with these themes of the demonic and ghost and evil and all of these topics. I think on one end the convicting part, and I’m going to be very careful how I say this because I don’t think Hollywood is approaching it theologically in a correct way. The convicting part is that Hollywood is actually talking about a church topic more than a lot of churches are. You have this moment where you take a step back and you say, “Oh my goodness. It may feel weird so we’re not even talking about it, but yet here they are making movies about this stuff.”
|
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|
||||
Yeah. Some of them might not believe it. They might think it’s just scary and they’re trying to thrill people or free people out. I think to answer the question, it’s because there’s a demand for it at the same time that people are separating and moving away from faith, there is a major resurgence in interest in this topic. I think it’s because of a variety of reasons, but A, human nature. Go back to the beginning of time, people have always reported to have these sorts of spiritual experiences where they feel they’re being attacked by the demonic and they may call it something different. Different cultures have different ways of looking at it. Research and studies show that this is actually one very common experience throughout the history of man.
|
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|
||||
You have that going on, but you also have churches and obviously I’m an evangelical, but when you look at which churches are doing the best job of tracking the requests for help, the Catholic church is really the only top-down organization that we have that can say, “Here’s the number of requests we got for people who believe that they’re dealing with the demonic.” There’s an explosion of this. We’re seeing as we move away from God, more and more people looking for help. There’s a lot of things going on there that I think are pointing to the interest in this topic.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That is very interesting. On the one hand with pop culture, you’ve got the conjuring and on the other hand with evangelicalism, you got the ignoring, is basically what’s going on here. Yeah. That’s so true. I think sometimes that, like you said, there is that crowd, that pendulum swing of people who want to look for a demon behind every Bush kind of thing. For the most part, we tend to kind of ignore the things that are a little bit scary out there. We want to comfort people. We want to make them feel good. We’ll leave church feeling like they got something fun or whatever, but there’s so much in the scriptures about the darkness. There’s so much about Satan and people say you shouldn’t study Satan, you shouldn’t study about demons and stuff. Well, why is it in the Bible then? God obviously wants us to have a well-rounded theological knowledge, but Billy, as you got into this subject, because you kind of dove in, what are some of the things that you kind of uncovered about what is going on right now in terms of demonic activity?
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|
||||
Billy: Yeah. There’s so much. It was really interesting to kind of go back to some of the stories that we have heard and not just pop culture because you mentioned, The Conjuring. The Conjuring was an interesting film and there’s obviously been sequels since and there’s more to come, but it was based on a true story. At the time, one of my first, the first stories I ever told around this was the real life alleged story of the family that inspired The Conjuring. There seems to be, obviously statistically, we know there’s an increase in people believing that. Now a skeptic would say, “Well, they’re just saying that they’re experiencing this. It could be mental illness or something else.” Well, there’s at least an increase there. We know that people believe that they’re experiencing something they can’t explain. You can talk to missionaries, which I talk in playing with fire with a number of missionaries and pastors who have seen in other countries, what is currently going on and the unbelievable stories that people I know in trust.
|
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|
||||
I know they’re telling the truth, have experienced personally, but there are a number of people who have bravely spoken out. I say bravely, because this is something because it feels so weird, even though Hollywood’s telling stories about it and even though we know the scriptures are filled with it, people are afraid to tell their story. A lot of people do not want to speak out about what they’ve experienced. I ended up interviewing a lot of people, not all of it made it into the book because some people didn’t want their name attached to it because they were afraid of those very things, but a number of people who experienced this sort of thing. I can take you through some of those stories and how compelling they are. One of them was actually remarkable. As a journalist, I find it remarkable because this particular story which unfolded in Gary, Indiana a few years ago, it was a mother, her three children, and then her mom. A mom, a grandma, and three kids, and they were living in a house in Gary, Indiana. They were renting.
|
||||
|
||||
Almost immediately after they moved into this house, they started experiencing things that they could not explain. This particular story was so compelling that there’s documented evidence. so much so, and when I say documented evidence, I’m talking about doctors, nurses, CPS childcare workers, people who saw things happening who filed official government paperwork that the Indianapolis Star actually wrote about this case. It became an international story back in 2013, 2014, because it was so documented. We’ve moved into an arena where you actually have a lot of compelling stories. Not everybody believes them. I find them very compelling when you dive into the details, but you also have some medical professionals, some psychiatrists and psychologists who are working in New York, where I live. One of them in particular, he’s got his own book out on this topic. He has been a consultant for the Catholic church for 25 years, helping them really look at each case to see, “Okay, is this mental illness or is it something else that we believe is going on spiritually?”
|
||||
|
||||
Some of these medical professionals are speaking out, even those who are not Christians, to say something else is going on in some of these cases. We’re not quite sure what it is. There’s a lot happening right now that I think is very intriguing.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s wild, man. Yeah. We know as believers from scripture that there is that unseen realm and there are fallen angels. We read about them in scripture and stuff like that. I think it’s just so cool that you have that background, but also your journalism because people who, maybe some people who might hear Jeff and I talk about it, but maybe have more of a skeptical slant , may not accept it, but hearing somebody who’s a journalist, who’s researched these bonafide stories, even taking testimony from non-believers and doctors and that kind of thing. That’s pretty stinking compelling. What’s wild is, I think you’re right. You kind of alluded to this, but I think even in the church, a lot of people don’t want their minds to go there because it’s too weird.
|
||||
|
||||
We just want to be okay with Jesus is involved in our life. We’re going to die and go to heaven someday. Really when we look at the fact, we’re in a fallen world. We’re dropped behind enemy lines, and this is the Bible literally says, “This is Satan’s world at this time.” That’s in the Bible. The way you look at it as a journalist, I’m sure as you went there and started studying these stories, in addition to what you just talked about, I bet there were some things maybe you didn’t expect to stumble on. Was there anything unexpected that you discovered while you were kind of researching for this book?
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Absolutely. Because here’s the thing. As I’m writing, Playing With Fire, I’m going through and I’m looking at scripture for the first time and only pulling out the sections about evil. I’m looking at who is Satan. I’m looking at each of the stories where Jesus is delivering somebody of a demon or multiple demons. I’m looking at these moments in Act 16 when you’ve got Paul being followed around by the slave woman who has a spirit that basically allows her to tell the future. There’s all these things that start to pop out at you and you say, “Oh wow, that’s really interesting. He expels this demonic entity and she no longer can tell the future.” The Bible tells us, I guess I would start with the things the Bible does tell us. That I found fascinating, that I had looked past before. Obviously, I knew you don’t play around with Ouija boards.
|
||||
|
||||
The Bible doesn’t say the word Ouija in it, but you know what the Bible tells you. In the old Testament, stay away from anybody who’s communicating with the dead. You stay away from people who are fortune tellers. You don’t engage in that sort of thing, but you start moving into scripture and then you start to notice some of the things that scripture doesn’t tell us. The biggest thing that I had never noticed before is with all of these people and there’s children too. You’ve got a boy and a girl, two different stories who are healed by Jesus. We never learn how they became afflicted. That really stuck out to me as I was reading through all of those stories. I thought that’s so fascinating to me because we have so many conversations today. I think when you piece the biblical narrative together on evil, you can kind of understand the ways in which you can become afflicted.
|
||||
|
||||
In those particular stories, we’re not really told we just meet them where they are and we see Jesus healing them. That was really, really eye-opening to me and sort of fascinating and then seeing children. You’ve got two kids again who are spiritually afflicted in scripture. That opens up a lot of really interesting theological questions of, “Well, how does a child become possessed?” With the little boy, you’ve got the father telling us that it’s trying to drown him, it’s trying to burn him, it’s trying to kill him. That was interesting. Then actually sitting down and talking with people who have gone through experiences that they believe to be possession. It was really remarkable. This didn’t surprise me, but it stuck out to me that each of the people I spoke with, most of them had at one point or another during this possession experience, during this affliction, felt as though they should end their lives.
|
||||
|
||||
That was something that, and you go back to those descriptions of Satan, in scripture, he’s a liar he’s trying to kill, he’s trying to destroy. A lot of the manifestations that we see in these modern stories, they match up very well to what we see happening in scripture. There’s so much to unpack there, but absolutely. The biggest thing, okay. Not to go on a Ted talk here, but I just have to say this because I think for me, I walked away. I was very afraid to write this book and I’m not going to lie. I was. Now, I look back and I laugh at myself because I realized we have authority over all of this as Christians. It’s not something to fear, as long as we’re living our lives the right way as Christians.
|
||||
|
||||
Again, we have authority over it. When you look at evil and you study it, not because you’re trying to obsess over it, not because you’re trying to find a demon behind every door, under every rock, but because you want to understand the full concept of what the gospel tells us and what the Bible tells us, it actually points you back towards your need for good. That was something that was remarkable to me to walk away from studying evil and to look at all of it and to say, “Oh my goodness, this is why we need Jesus.” Not only that we’re in the middle of this battle, that’s going on and to ignore all of this actually puts us in a precarious position in our own lives and in our own culture when we’re not acknowledging those things. It actually points you back to Jesus, which is something that was remarkable to me.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That is incredible. You talked about these demonic possessions in scripture and how they’re just presented to us. They don’t tell us about, “Well, she was involved in this pagan religion over here and did sacrifice and demon entered her and that kind of thing. We don’t really know how it happened.” Now, but when you did the research for this book though, and just surveying historically and journalistically, and the things are going on there, were there any common denominators that you saw just occasionally pop up? You mentioned the Ouija board, some things like that. Obviously, some people go off on a tangent and say, “Well, you can’t have a Christmas tree because it has pagan roots or whatever,” something crazy like that. In terms of just actual satanic influence, I mean, was it just random or were there some things you began to see pop up over and over again in this person’s history or in their experiences that would tell you they’ve exposed themselves to supernatural entities?
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Yeah. I’m glad you asked that because I wanted to clarify that too, that when I talked about that fact that you don’t encounter the reasons in those stories, but I think you get that connection when you go into scripture and you see, “Okay, we are not supposed to play around with these things.” We are explicitly told that throughout scripture. We see Paul and I go back to that example of Paul expelling this demon from the slave woman. She no longer can tell the future. The consistency that I’ve seen in modern stories of the people I have talked with, and also the pastors and the deliverance ministers I’ve interacted with, is that there is something that a person has engaged in. Okay. Whether that is seeking out psychics, seeking out the Ouija board, trying to communicate with the dead actually worshiping Satan, which I think we understand is a much clearer path to having this sort of doorway open.
|
||||
|
||||
Now, that doesn’t mean that every single person who picks up an Ouija board is going to be possessed. Possession is a very rare thing. It happens and it exists. When we talk about spiritual warfare and oppression, which is, I’m going to use the word gentler version of possession, it’s outside of your body, it’s evil manifesting itself in your life. Generally speaking, people have invited that in and they’ve often done it through perpetual sin or so there’s definitely patterns. It was something that somebody invited in. I will tell you, there is one story in, Playing With Fire, that is challenging. I think even the person themselves, her name is Amy. It’s challenging to her because she doesn’t know why it happened to her. She experienced what she believed to be a possession and what was unique.
|
||||
|
||||
This is the only story I encountered. She was a church goer at the time. She believes she was a Christian. Now, that doesn’t mean she was. There’s a million things you have to unpack in those stories. 99.9% of these stories, they are surrounding people who have engaged in something that they never should have engaged in. They have directly violated what we’re told in scripture to not violate. I want to just humanize that for a minute too, because one of the things I encountered in my research with the Ouija board was that during war times, the Ouija board is often used more regularly because people are desperate to connect with their deceased, loved ones.We often tend to think of these things as, now I’m not saying you should never use it, but you understand the desperation in it. Evil praise on that desperation to try to communicate with this dead loved one, something we’re not supposed to do. Those things really stood out to me as I was going through and researching and looking at this. Again, it is something that people have engaged in intentionally, whether it’s through a repetitious sin or one of the other violations that I’ve mentioned.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Hence, Playing With Fire.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Exactly.
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Playing With Fire, exactly.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s it man.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Now, let’s talk about this. Let’s transition a little bit because we are in the end times. We believe that with all our hearts, that we’re living in the last days. Obviously, Satan knows that his time is limited, that his time is short. It gets even more severe in revelation 12 when he actually realizes he’s got about three and a half years left. Right now, Billy, as you did research this book, as you wrote this book and experienced it and went through this whole thing. Tell us about, do you think Satan is really ramping up his activity? Are you seeing more of this kind of thing? Is it more a permeating culture is becoming more acceptable in some ways, more admissible in many other ways. What did you see in terms of Satan’s activity in the last days?
|
||||
|
||||
Billy: Yeah. It gets really interesting when we talk about these topics, because when you pick up a book like this, and you start to look at the stories, the book opens with the Exorcist, the real story behind the Exorcist, all these extreme examples of what it looks like when somebody is dealing with possession. I think the more deceptive and the more intriguing and important for us to understand deception are the tiny deceptions that over time change people’s trajectory and take them away from God. When you talk about culture, you talk about the essential control of Hollywood and the media, and the way that we have all been conditioned to think about the world around us. It feels as though we have watched that confusion take root, and whenever I see mass confusion taking root, I go back to those descriptions of who Satan is the author of confusion.
|
||||
|
||||
If he’s the author of confusion, then can we assume that some of what we’re seeing happen in culture right now is happening as a result of that intentional infusion of confusion into the end of the ecosystem. Essentially, I think what we’re watching right now is we are watching culture, this cultural battle really unfold. A lot of people who previously were able to say that they were Christians, because there was some sort of cultural benefit to it, not because they actually were, are dropping that label and moving away. Where it becomes very concerning is generation Z. You look at generation Z, the most disconnected from faith, the most, not even hostile toward faith, apathetic from faith, and really most of them not even getting an introduction to what faith really is. Well, why is that? Because of these influences that we’re talking about.
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I’m talking about it at a 30,000 foot level right now, but I think we’re actually seeing evil manifest itself in a lot of different ways right now that don’t necessarily correspond to the peace soup spewing, chaos that we see in the Exorcist. They correspond more to this cultural sway away from the church. Then you have, I mean, you have things happening within the church that are not helping. You have these controversies, these scandals, these unfortunate things because we’re human beings and sin is a part of what happens. I think we’re going to see these things kick up. Again though, even beyond all of that, you go back to what experts are saying. They are getting contacted more by people who are experiencing symptoms of this. We’re seeing the medical experts that I mentioned openly speak out and say that they’ve experienced things.
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||||
Even those who don’t necessarily believe that they can’t explain. I have had people tell me off the record, that they have mental institutions calling them a few times a year secretly to say, we have an issue here that we need your help with, that we can’t solve. Yeah. We’re going to see more of this, I think. It’s interesting. A lot of people, and I don’t have the solution to this, but I find it fascinating when you talk about countries like Haiti, certain parts of Africa, where we have seen activity seemingly much more open and pronounced in this arena. I think in America, one of the big questions people will ask, “Well, why have we not seen this happening everywhere in America?” Well, America is unique in a lot of ways. I think we’ve enjoyed that cultural Christianity for a very long time and it’s evaporating very quickly. I would not be shocked to watch the dynamics change in this. I’d love to hear what you guys think, but to change very rapidly alongside that as well.
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Jeff: Yeah. You think about Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, Paul says. Why would he need to possess someone if he could just seduce them into doing what he wanted them to do? Satan has many different methods. He’s the deceiver, he’s our adversary. Just knowing that he’s active and he’s going to fully possess one man one day, the antichrist. Until that point, he has millions of demons and perhaps tens of millions of demons that are doing his bidding everywhere. Certainly, there are some portals that are open to people’s hearts, to people’s minds, to their souls, where he has a really an open door to come in and just completely take possession of that person. Now, all their faculties. Yet the interesting thing too, is that people can still say no to that. Even people that are possessed can still call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. There is still that ability to do that. Anyway, Todd, you got another question there?
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Todd: Yeah. Bill, I was going to say, I find it really interesting. Again, I’m kind of fascinated with your journalistic approach. We look at things biblically and kind of gut feel and Holy spirit led, but I love that you’re bringing empirical data that says, “No empirical data says spiritual warfare is ramping up in the end time.” When you get that kind of confirmation for what we teach biblically, I think that’s compelling. Just to back up what you said about the mission field, I’ve actually been on short term missions to Brazil, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic. I’ve seen some crazy stuff in all three places. In all three, I come home and I’m like, you don’t see that here, but you talk to missionaries on the frontline who are taking back territory from Satan away from the spotlight. You find some over spiritual warfare.
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I’ve seen and heard some stuff myself and some stories from the missionaries who, like you said, completely reliable, trust them a hundred percent, know them personally, and they’re not sensationalistic at all. Matter of fact, I almost think they’re not in the right mind to be there doing what they’re doing, because they’ve left all their comfort, all their, I mean, they’re there because God called them there. They have no reason to fabricate that kind of stuff, but I love the empirical data that you bring and that’s a long lead into my next question is, how does your book tie into spiritual warfare for the average believer? Most believers I talk to have a hard time discerning between, “Okay, these are just trials that I’m going through in a fallen world,” versus, “Okay. I can identify this as spiritual warfare coming against me as a believer.”
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Billy: Yeah. That’s such a good question. I kept circling back to Ephesians six as I was writing the book and I’ve read a Ephesians six so many times, and yet it’s funny with scripture. You read things and it’s like, “Oh, that’s really amazing.” You just kind of move on. I kept coming back to that because I think one of the things that this topic does is it instills fear in people. It instilled the fear in me to not want to even write the book. Then I felt such overwhelming peace after, when I finally understood, “Okay, I’ve been a lifelong Christian. If I’m not understanding this, how many other Christians aren’t understanding that we have this authority.” We get hung up on these details of, or these fears even of, if I go into this, and I’m talking about going into it again with the right, not because we’re obsessed with the topic and we’re trying to glamorize it, but because we’re trying to understand it.
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If we don’t understand it, we actually leave ourselves open to that sort of assault. That doesn’t mean we’re not going to face these issues of spiritual warfare because we will, Christians will face spiritual warfare. We all face it. It doesn’t mean you’re being possessed. It means that this is something that is manifesting in your life. I go back to Ephesians six and I look at that baseline of there is a battle over good and evil between good and evil in this world. We are in the middle of it. What does it mean to take up a shield? What does it mean to protect ourselves? It means living the Christian life. I think we over complicate this so much. Even when we’re in those difficult moments and we are struggling, we’re having a hard time with the sermon and we’re feeling that spiritual warfare unfold or we’re suspecting that it’s unfolding.
|
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The best thing in my mind to do is for us to actually sit down, crack open our Bible, make sure we’re doing daily time with God, make sure we’re praying, make sure we’re leading our families right, because to me, and I will tell you that writing this book set me back on path spiritually. I have not missed a morning of reading my Bible since I wrote this book. I will tell you, I was in a bad pattern beforehand of missing that. It really set me back on course as a reminder. Again, you go back to that, “What do I do? I don’t know what to do. Is this spiritual warfare? Is it not?” Well, as you’re trying to figure that out, go to prayer, go to your Bible.
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I know that’s sort of a simple response, but I feel like Ephesians six is so compelling because it sets us up. By the way, a lot of us are not paying attention to it. We’re pretending as though this battle isn’t going on. We’re also pretending as though the people in front of us are the actual enemy. When in reality, there is another enemy that we are not physically seeing. We’re very distracted right now in this culture. We’re trying to cancel everybody. We’re acting crazy and it’s completely the opposite of how Ephesians six should be calling us to behave.
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Todd: If could share one quick story, Jeff, to kind of just piggyback off of what he said and the reason I want to say this is because it might encourage one of our listeners. When I was a young believer, every time, when I was a kid, I hated scary movies. Always scared me crazy. I would go watch some dumb movie while my stepbrothers went and saw the scary stuff. I always had this fear. When I was a young believer, I heard a story about a Christian family who had some weird stuff going on in their house that they couldn’t explain. As I listened to that, I was overcome with fear. There was something about me that just, I was so afraid of all that, but as they were talking about it, the pastor who was talking to them said, “Greater is he who is in you than he, who is in the world.”
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The reason I bring that up is because my fear left instantly when I heard that verse. There’s something about digging into God’s word and letting God’s truth, invade those spaces and kick Satan out, whether he’s trying to make us fearful or whether he’s coming against us in any other way. We see that with Jesus when he was tempted every single time he went to God’s word. That’s just an encouragement to our listeners, that if you are fearful of this topic, go to God’s word, let God’s word permeate through you. He will kick Satan now. Of course, Jeff and I love the verse, “Resist the enemy. Turn from temptation and hopefully from you.” There’s definitely tactics that scripture gives us that kicks all that stuff out.
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Billy: Absolutely.
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Jeff: Yeah. That’s so true. I could tell stories as well, just demonic activity as you get into ministry, as you’re going into Satan’s territory, he doesn’t want you there. During church planning, 10 years of church planning that we were involved in and we had some overt, even audible, demonic manifestations happen to our family. It’s real. It’s really real, but we don’t have to fear it. Some people think, “Well, I’ll just bind Satan in the name of Jesus.” Well, unfortunately he keeps getting out of those bounds if you’re binding him, because he is not being bound yet. Only in revelation 20, you would see him get bound. It does say, as you said in James four, I mean, resist the devil and he will flee from you. There’s not an incantation, there’s not some magic formula potion or ritual we have to go through.
|
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|
||||
As you said, Billy, we have to get our hearts in tune with God, which arouses our minds to be more sensitive to the spiritual activity and warfare that’s around us. We can face that with confidence. We don’t have to be fearful. If there’s someone listening today that is going, “Hey, I just feel like evil is encroaching on my life.” Then listen, you need to cling to Jesus Christ and get into his word. I guarantee you, you will start feeling that strength build up within you, the ability to say, “No,” and to resist what the devil is putting in front of you. Let’s be honest. Sin is very tempting. Sin is very pleasurable and sometimes he wants to play to our greatest weaknesses. We have to be aware of that. Well, Billy, listen, we could talk so much more about that.
|
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||||
There’s so much more we could say, and we’re going to have to have you back on to talk some more about it, but Playing With Fire, is the name of the book. You need to pick it up. Now, it’s an easy book to recognize because it actually has fire on the cover. Okay. You’ll recognize it.
|
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|
||||
Billy: It does.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. It’s right there on your bookshelf in the bookstore. You can order Amazon, anywhere else. Billy tell us, is there anything else that’s going on in your life right now in terms of projects you’re involved in or something else about your ministry and your work you’d like our listeners to know about it.
|
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|
||||
Billy: Yeah. My day job is by the way, fun transition. My day job is actually Pure Flix. I work at Pure Flix and I always encourage people if you’re looking for, as we’re talking about, you’re diving in spiritually, making sure you’re kind of in the word, we have resources every day. If you go over to insider.pureflix.com, I’m writing their daily Bible verse lists. We’ve got a lot of movies and stuff too, that you can watch. There’s just a lot of great content to help because I think people sometimes struggle with where to start. Obviously, I say pick up the Bible, crack it, open and read. If you’re looking for more guidance, you can grab some of that there. Yeah. Right now, my concern is culture and where we are and having these conversations. I so appreciate you guys having me on to talk about it because I think too many of us are silent and I was guilty of this too on topics that are really affecting people and that people really need healing from. I appreciate you both.
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Todd: Likewise, man. Thank you so much for the partnership and joining us and again, yeah, we’ll definitely have you back again, man. We can’t wait. Thank you so much for your time. Taking time out of your busy schedule to join us. Jeff and I are super thankful and we know our listeners are going to be blessed by what they hear today.
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Billy: Thank you so much.
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Jeff: Fantastic. Thanks, Billy.
|
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Did you know you can find the Prophecy Pros on the Edifi Network. That’s right. We’re there now. We’re getting massive exposure, so cool. It’s E-D-I-F-I, the Edifi Network, check it out, subscribe and listen with other podcasts as well on that great network. As always, we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for making this possible. We could not do this without them.
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![[S3E11: When the Bride Falls Asleep.mp3]]
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Jeff: What do you do when the bride falls asleep? That’s what we’re going to talk about today on the Prophecy Pros Podcast. Todd, one of the questions that you and I get a lot is from believers who are attuned to what God is doing in the world today and the Bible prophecy. They understand what’s going on. But one of the frustrations that they have is they don’t know how to help people that are not tuned in. You know what I’m saying? In other words, these people are asleep. They may even be hesitant to even talk about Bible prophecy. I think sometimes they think that maybe they’re a little bit on the fringe. People come to them and talk about it and stuff. So the question has come to us, what do I do when nobody will listen to me about this Bible prophecy thing. Maybe they think that you’re like some Star Trek convention person, something like that. You’re into it a little too much kind of thing. So what do you do with people like that?
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Jeff: And so we want to talk about that. We want to address that issue because this is a common thing. Because what’s happening is, at the same time that God is really helping Christians to understand what’s going on in the world today prophetically, there’s also a huge element of the church, of evangelicals, of Christians, of professing believers that are just not into it and are not tuned in to what God’s doing. So let’s talk about some ways that we can just acknowledge that and ways that we can begin to help people do that.
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Todd: Yeah. It’s funny too. And I’m sure you’ve noticed this too, Jeff. It seems like people who study Bible prophecy and see the things that we’re seeing are spread out and maybe that’s strategic by the Lord. Like he wants to use people on a grassroots level. There’ve been several things over the past 20 or 30 years where the church itself has moved away from teaching Bible prophecy. Seminaries have moved away from teaching Bible prophecy, even though it’s a key line of theology and it connects to everything in the Bible.
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Todd: And I understand why. Like you said, there’s been a lot of sensationalism, a lot of people who have set dates or just over sensationalized everything instead of sticking to scripture. Matter of fact, you and I were talking this morning, there’s a couple of viral videos going around right now that everyone’s latching onto and forwarding and all kinds of stuff. And none of it’s based in the Bible. I mean, there’s just enough truth in it to get people’s attention, but instead of doing their homework and digging in the scripture, people just kind of run with it. And some of that’s because of fear. Some of it’s because they just want some want to see something happen. Yeah. There’s many reasons for it, but we’re trying to talk about the solution here for it. And I think one thing we can do is number one, don’t lead with Bible prophecy. Don’t just walk up to somebody say, hey, let’s talk about the Antichrist. That’s probably not going to get their attention. But I think if we intentionally love people and just pray for God to send people to us. God, give me wisdom to know how to introduce this topic or who to introduce it to. But the good and the tough thing is, it’s on everyone’s mind more than ever.
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Todd: Even unchurched, non-believers are wondering what in the world is going on right now. So we have a golden opportunity. It’s teed up for us to talk about, but we have to be really careful on how we do it. Make sure we’re not divisive. Make sure we understand. And this is key for anybody listening out there because most of our listeners have already studied Bible prophecy, at least to some extent. Remember that the people that you’re talking to have not done the same study you have and put yourself in your shoes way back before you started studying Bible prophecy and remember how new it was to you, and how tough it was to study and put the puzzle pieces together. So give them a little bit of leeway, but just build that relationship. Point them to scripture and maybe just pray for God to open up an opportunity to leverage the times that we’re in. Even just to say, hey, you trust the Bible. Hey, why don’t you go study Revelations or Daniel 9, or some of these other passages that lines up a lot with what we’re seeing right now.
|
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|
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Jeff: No, those are great points, Todd. I was thinking, as you were talking there, is that, it’s like when you marry someone, all of a sudden you’re sitting at the dinner table and then you ask, where’s the so-and-so. Well, we don’t do that now. I didn’t grow up eating that, so I don’t know how to cook that or whatever. It’s like, it’s not on the menu. And we have a lot of Christians who come to us, and text us, and send us emails, and messages that just say, look, it’s not on the menu at my church. I mean, it’s like, I wish that we could devour that kind of spiritual food, but it’s not being served to me at church. And much of the frustration that we’re seeing is within their own churches. But as you mentioned, Todd, the whole world right now is thinking about the end of the world.
|
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|
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Jeff: I mean, this is a golden moment for Bible prophecy because it’s on everyone’s mind. And it may not be from a biblical perspective obviously, but you look at what the world’s talking about. It’s talking about climate change and the end of the world. It’s talking about nuclear war and the end of the world. It’s talking about pandemics and the end of the world, or some other unforeseen global event, that’s going to drastically change. I mean, the doomsday clock, the guys who put this thing together, these nuclear physicists that do this have moved the doomsday clock up to two minutes to midnight which is closer than it’s ever been before. So even secular scientists are saying, we’re just metaphorically speaking, two minutes away from an extinction event on planet Earth. So as you said, it’s really being teed up for us to do that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, in light of that, I think about Christians being asleep and my mind goes to Revelation 3, as Jesus is addressing the church at Sardis. And one of the things he says to them in the very first verse there in chapter three, he says, “I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.” It sounds like Jesus is saying, your church is called life church, but you’re really dead church. And one of the reasons they were dead church is because they were not walking with Christ. They were not ready for his return. They had become complacent. They were asleep in the light. And this is a gradual regress, I think Todd, that happens in churches and with Christians, but Jesus’ word to them, his excoriating rebuke to them in verse 2 is, wake up.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And of course I wrote an entire book called Wake the Bride to help Christians do that and to help others do that, but he says, “Wake up and strengthen things that remain, which were about to die in you for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of God.” And then he says, “Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; keep it and repent. If therefore you will not wake up, I will come like a thief and you will not know what hour I’ll come upon you.” And I think when he says, I’ll come upon you, he’s talking about coming in judgment to them. In some of the other churches that he had given rebukes to, he says, I’m going to remove your lampstand or your effectiveness. I think sometimes as Christians and as churches, we think that knowledge of certain things and activity sort of equates to life.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So if you’ve got a church that something’s going on every night of the week, or there’s a lot going on Sunday, we’ve got 20 different ministries. That somehow that means we’re alive, but not necessarily. It’s what is the nature of that life and what is the understanding that you have of the Lord? So the first thing obviously that we would say is that the bride needs to be woken up and she needs to be introduced to the subject of Bible prophecy, as you said, the right way. And that begins ends by building a relationship. So obviously, cold calling strangers, knocking on their doors, they’re not going to talk to you about Bible prophecy. You’re not going to get very far with them. But people with whom you already have a relationship, I would say, look for common ground or look for things that you can agree on.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: For example, you and I, a year ago, we were at the largest Christians high school in Arkansas, speaking to over 500 high school students. And Todd, you remember the day you sat up and you said, “How many of you guys have ever had anyone teach you the book of Revelation or Bible prophecy?” Not a single hand went up and representing hundreds of youth ministries and churches out there. And then you said, “How many of you thought about the end of the world in the past week?”
|
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|
||||
Todd: Every single hand went up.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Every hand went up. And that just gives me chills to think about that. We’ve got these young people that are thinking thing about their world and again, may be getting their cues from the world. Greta Thunberg may be giving them more theology from their perspective than the Bible, but they are thinking about it. So we have to inform them, but to build a ramp up to that and to find ways to do that. And one way to do that would be perhaps… Like for example, I get a lot of moms and dads who write me and say, I’ve got this college age son, high school son, I can’t get them to read the Bible or whatever. I’m like, does he like zombies? Does he like fiction? I’m like, I got books on that. It’s like, give him a fiction book. Let him read about the Antichrist from a fictional standpoint and maybe that will wet his appetite and sort of be like breadcrumbs leading to the truth if you will.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And so sometimes we just have to find that open door, that unlocked door in their life, that area of common ground or of openness that we can just say, hey, would you be interested in this? Sometimes it’s a podcast or perhaps even a video or a book like we’ve written, the Prophecy Pros, A Quick Reference Guide to the End Times, which is a short little book, but it gives a lot of information. So we can begin there.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Hey, thanks so much for tuning in today and listening to this episode of the Prophecy Pros Podcast. We know that when we study Bible prophecy or talk about it, one answered question might lead to other questions you have. So we have a special place set up on the website where you can go and ask Jeff and I a question. Just go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And there, you can also learn more about our books, where to find them and other resources. We thank you so much for tuning in. Be sure to share this, subscribe, like and anything else you can do to let your friends and family know about the Prophecy Pros Podcast.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Yeah, exactly. I’m glad you mentioned those two resources, Jeff. Your book, Wake the Bride, deals with this specifically and has a lot of practical information people would want to get. And our little booklet that you mentioned, A Quick Reference Guide to the End Times is a gift that’s easy to give, and it’s not a weird way. Hey, check this out, here’s the top 10 questions about the end times and it’s thoroughly biblical. You’d be surprised how many people would pick that up. I found every time I’ve offered it… A matter of fact, this morning at the hotel, I gave five of them to the lady who was preparing the breakfast and stuff. And she went nuts. She was so excited. So it’s something that’s easy to give away and it’s not weird. You don’t have to give a big speech or anything, but those are two resources.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And Jeff, just to backpedal on a few things. You mentioned how even the world now is noticing and coming up with reasons, whether it’s climate change stuff or whatever it is, they’re noticing and talking about, they are talking about the end of the world. The difference is with us; we actually have hope. Their discussion of the end of the world is all dystopian, lack of hope. Like there’s really no hope or nothing that’s going to really want people to be around in the future. But the difference is we have hope. We know that God’s in control, that all this is heading somewhere and ultimately that we’re raptured out of here. And also I should mention, when we’re talking about the bride that’s asleep, please know we’re not talking about any specific church or anything.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: We’re talking about the church at large, believers at large. And I think of one verse. I think it’s Matthew 18:8, if I’m correct where it said, “When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith on the earth.” That lines up with scripture as well, that we’re no longer looking, the bride is asleep. But the encouraging thing is we’re seeing a real groundswell, grassroots kind of level of people who do want to know what’s going on because you can’t deny the craziness that’s going on and you can’t deny that it lines up with, even from a cursory review, what you know about the Bible.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s a great point. And when reading Revelation 2-3, I mean, keep in mind, this is just too short generations past the resurrection of Christ and the early writings in the New Testament. So it’s about 40 years or so past the writings of the epistles. But here’s the deal, by this time, the majority of the church had already fallen asleep again. They had already detoured doctrinally, morally. They had lost their first love with Jesus, or they had fallen asleep. Yeah, they’re still meeting, but what’s going on in those meetings. And as one pastor said recently, a lot of churches today are just a light and music show followed by a TED Talk. Just something kind of to make you feel good, make you [crosstalk].
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It’s a cultural thing. It’s something like, check this off the list for this week.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Exactly. And that is what many of the people that write us are seeing in their own churches or in their own areas, is that there is a cultural Christianity, casual Christianity, people have become very comfortable. They’ve become very complacent. They checked off the box. Yeah, I go to church. I’ve got that thing going on.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: What I watched online this week.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Totally. Sort of watch online.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It was on the TV while I was cooking breakfast.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Exactly. So I can count that I was there. But there become sort of a spiritual amnesia that sets in I think with believers sometimes is that one point, we had that fervor, we had that fire. We even wanted the Lord to come back. We were looking forward to that. But then as time goes on, we sort of lose that. And part of that, Todd, I believe comes from the fact that because we are in the world… Jesus said in John 17, “I don’t want it Father for them, take them out of the world.” But we’re in the world. But sometimes we’d become also of the world. And what I mean by that and what I think scripture means by that is that we began adopting some of the values and the important things that the world says are important. We sort of adopt those as our own.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And Paul addressed that in Romans 12:2. He says, “Do not be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds.” And let’s be honest, we’re not living in neutrality here. Your book, The Non-Prophet’s Guide to Spiritual Warfare, really illustrates the fact that this is not this neutral zone where it’s like you can choose this or choose that. No, Satan and the world is actively trying to conform our minds, to force us to think certain things about reality and about relationships and gender and sexuality and reproductive “rights.” I mean, all these things, the world is active. It’s proactive really to do that. And so we have to be careful as Christians, not to sort of settle into that, let our feet sort of sink into the sand to the point where we’re not able to move anymore.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: As one person said long time ago to me, Jeff, don’t drive your tent pegs too deep into the world soil because it’ll be hard to uproot those things when Christ comes. James 4:4 says, “Friendship with the world is enmity or hostility towards God.” So we certainly don’t want to be friends with the world’s values although, we do want to be friends with those in the world. God so loved the world, that’s people, right? So we want to make sure that we don’t fall into that sort of complacency and get to that point where we don’t even care anymore. And so when you introduce Bible prophecy to people and you’re like, how do I wake them up? Well, just know this, you’re not going to wake them up by snapping your fingers or simply by quoting a verse to them.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It’s not going to be some magical potion or formula. But I will say first of all, just to pray for them and to help awaken them to some of these things. And I’ll give you just a quick example. My kids and their wives, they’re all in their 20s and that type of thing. And so I don’t just presume that they’re all just automatically going to be excited about every book that I write because I’m dad, right? That’s what he does, right? But I do recall just about a year or so ago, my daughter-in-law and her friend came up to our property and we sat on the front porch and they said, we want to ask you about Bible prophecy. We want to ask you about Revelation. We got so many questions. And Todd, we sat on the front porch for over three hours, where they just came back and forth asking all these questions. And it just goes to show that in the heart of every seeking Christian, they want to know the truth. They really want to know. I didn’t force that on them. I didn’t say now let’s talk about prophecy. No, it came from them. So just to pray that God would awaken within people this desire to know why is the world the way it is? Why are we headed in the direction we’re going? And how can I tactfully and lovingly share what God says about our current situation.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That is so true. And I want to pick up on something you said, and that’s Satan is active here. That’s a spiritual warfare element. In the end times, he wants the bride to be asleep. We’re the salt of the earth and the light of the world, he has great deception plans. So the more sleepy we are, the more junk he can get away with. The upside of that is as crazier things happen in the world, it’s almost like a teenager who sets their alarm for every 10 minutes from 5:00 AM to 6:00 AM knowing they’re not going to get up till 6:00 AM, but each time they wake up a little bit more. That’s kind of what’s going on in the world is that there’s been the past several years, one thing after the other, that it really is kind of shaking people out of their sleep to like either, all right, I need to either need to figure out what the Bible says about this, or I need to just ignore it and come up with some worldly view of it.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And what we’re finding is just like you said with your sons and your daughters-in-law, that that age group is really starting to ask some key questions. And that’s my encouragement is, pray for opportunities to network with them and maybe you’ll lead a small group. Maybe invite them for coffee, do one-on-one stuff. I think it’s going to be more grassroots because it isn’t something typically that you could answer all the questions in a 20-minute sermon. It does take three hours to unpack some of it. And one question leads to another and that’s a healthy thing. So maybe it’s a time when the church can really be the church on a grassroots level. And we’re not trying to leave it all up to the pastor. Like we got to be the body, we got to step up to the plate and pursue our own personal calling and look for those opportunities.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But they’re there. So be encouraged and know this, that God knows your heart. He knows you want to share that with people. He wants to wake people up. We have to tactfully wake up as many as we can. And the reality is, if the rapture were to happen today, I bet you millions, maybe billions of people, after the rapture, will become believers because of our witness. Of course, we want them to come now. We don’t want them to have to go through any of that stuff. But I just wanted to say those things just as a last encouraging thing. So Jeff, what’s something encouraging we can leave them with on this topic, that comes to mind?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. Yeah, totally. And the good news is you can do something.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Don’t do just nothing, do something. And obviously, I say pray, but I really mean that. I mean, prayer’s powerful, and it will be great to see God answer some of your prayers. And get out a piece of paper and write down some names of some people that you think, hey, I want to really target to help them, encourage them in their Christian life because the point is not to correct them about everything. The point is to inform them and to expose them to biblical truth. So pray. And another thing too, some of our listeners may have the ability to lead a small group. Like, for example, hey, for the next five weeks, six weeks, whatever, we’re going to have some coffee and dessert at my house on Tuesday nights. And five of us are going to talk about what the Bible says in Revelation, and maybe pick up a book by myself or by Todd to kind of help give you a guide, some resources, and use that as a discussion tool to kind of lead you into that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Other people may want to even approach their pastor and say, hey, would you be willing to lead us in this on Sundays at some point or could I lead a small group in the church and that type of thing? So don’t do nothing, do something and move forward and be proactive because if that’s on your heart to see Christians that are obviously asleep concerning the end times and concerning Bible prophecy, just take a step out on faith, ask God to show you a way that you can make that impact. And again, Todd, it may be as easy as saying, here’s a gift to you. Here’s a book to you. I know you’re not a reader. Okay, but I’m going to give you this book because it has got a lot of pictures. Todd Hampson’s a great illustrator, and he’s going to give you this book and it’s going to help make this whole thing come alive or a fiction book on the Antichrist that I’ve written, whatever. But give them something that they can have tangible in their hands and ask God to use that as a tool, as a starting point, and then just pray like mad that God would open their eyes to the great truth of Bible prophecy.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Did you know that you can find the prophecy pros on the Edifi Network? That’s right, we’re there now and we’re getting massive exposure. So cool. It’s E-D-I-F-I, the Edifi Network. Check it out, subscribe and listen with other podcasts as well on that great network.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And as always, we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for making this possible. We could not do this without them.
|
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|
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![[S3E12: Don Perkins: Understanding the End-Time Message.mp3]]
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![[S3E13: Sin, Discipleship, and the Rapture.mp3]]
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![[S3E1: Masks, Lockdowns, Social Distancing, and the Gospel.mp3]]
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---
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|
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Todd: Hey, everybody. You asked for it. Now it’s here. Welcome to season three of the Prophecy Pros Podcast. I can’t wait to talk to you today with my cohost, Jeff Kinley, so hold on tight. We’re going to hit on some relevant topics today.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Hey, everybody. Today we’re talking about masks, lockdowns, social distancing, and the Gospel. How does all that line up with Scripture? We just went through 2020. We’re into 2021, which is just about as crazy. We have several topics that are on everyone’s minds for the next several episodes, but today we’re going to look at those in particular, masks, lockdowns, social distancing, and the Gospel. How should we really respond to all that’s going on in our world?
|
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|
||||
Todd: Jeff, have you experienced anything recently where you’re just like, “What the heck is going on? This is so different than it was a year or two ago”?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, you and I both, we’re just with everybody else in this thing. We’re trying to navigate these waters as well. I’ve been anxious, Todd, to get back into the studio with you because we’ve both been getting a lot of requests from people, almost frustrating, say, “Hey, where is season three? We’re waiting on you guys here.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: We’re excited to talk about this because we’re in it. We are right in the middle of the storm right now, so this is so relevant to where people are. And yeah, just the whole mask thing… In fact, I was in the airport yesterday and just looked around and just saw hundreds and hundreds of people, and every one of them had a mask on. This thought just came to my head. I just thought, “How did we get here? How did we get to this point where it was this open and free America, and all of a sudden everybody is covering their face?” I joked the other day, you used to get in trouble for walking into a bank with a mask on; it’s like now everybody has to have a mask.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So how does that relate to us as Christians, with the whole lockdown situation, with social distancing, with the Gospel? Because, Todd, as a Christian, this is really just the antithesis of what we are commanded to do in Scripture. The Bible tells us, Jesus said in the Great
|
||||
|
||||
Commission to go into all the world, to penetrate society and to make contact with people. It just seems like these lockdowns, these restrictions, even with businesses shutting down, churches are shutting down right now, this seems very counter-scriptural, if you will.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, it really does. This morning as we were planning, Jeff and I were talking about, what if somebody went into a coma at the end of 2019 and then just woke up now? They wouldn’t believe the changes that have happened and how different everything is.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And you’re exactly right, it’s funny… This isn’t a mask versus no mask, let’s judge each other for how comfortable we are wearing masks and all that. But it really is, what does the Bible say? With masks, the Bible doesn’t want us wearing masks. I’m speaking more metaphorically. He wants us to be real. He wants us to do face time with people. There’s a reason we smile. There’s a reason God gave us facial expressions, that kind of thing. Of course, there’s an element of keeping people safe, and that’s a whole other discussion. We’re strictly talking about spiritually speaking and what does the Bible say about it.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Even the other things, social distancing, God doesn’t want us to social distance in terms of being with each other, being around each other. You’ve heard the analogy before where if embers are together, they stay hot, but if you take one ember out, it gets cold and stuff like that.
|
||||
|
||||
There’s a reason that the church is supposed to be together. Hebrews 10:25 says “not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the day approaching.” It’s talking about the day of the Lord. If nothing else, we can see, more than ever before, the day of the Lord approaching, so it’s almost like this is a prophetic verse for this time in history-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I agree.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: … like, “Hey, just a reminder, don’t stop getting together. The church needs to be together.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. Of course, some high-profile Christian leaders have been in the news about saying that it’s really not important that we meet together; we can just keep on not meeting. Where I live in our city, you drive by the marquees of churches and it just says, “Closed indefinitely.” When is the last time you ever saw something like that? It reminds me of what I’ve seen in Europe, where you see churches that have been turned into restaurants and condominiums and things like that. The whole idea, Todd, is that it seems like there is an outside force that is encroaching in on the church’s mission. Almost like hands around the neck, it’s beginning to strangle the church.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Now, obviously, you can still have contact with people, and we will talk about that in just a minute, but there is a certain dynamic that God intended for us to have when we come together. That’s when that true fellowship kicks in for us. In fact, we talk about the connection that believers have with each other. In the New Testament, there’s a lot of physical contact that believers have with one another. The Corinthians, he said, “Greet one another with a holy kiss.” There’s this embrace that you have and a spiritual level of connection that you have when you’re with people.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Even with you and I, as speakers and podcasters and that type of thing, I know that when I’m standing in front of an audience, my message is much different. There’s a whole different spirit and dynamic than there is when I’m making a video for someone as well. Even from a human standpoint, I know businesses have experienced this, too, and other work teams and that type of thing, but even more so in the church.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Now we have to think about, okay, we’re commanded to do this as believers. We’ve kind of taken this hiatus and we said, “Okay, we’ll do this for the sake of COVID and all this kind of thing.” At some point, we’re looking around going, “Wait a minute. They don’t really ever want us to come back together again.” There’s almost a spirit of “I can do without the church.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: In fact, a lot of online church attendance has dropped dramatically during this time. You would think people would say, “Well, I’ve got to have my church on Sunday.” Guess what? They’re just skipping. So yeah, there is a call that we need to be intentional about getting back together with one another.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: There really is. If you think about it, this is the first time in church history that churches worldwide were all shut down at the same time. Think of Easter last year, the first time ever in history that all churches were shut down, even for a period of time. I think of Matthew 18:20, where it says, “Where two or three are gathered together, I am there in the midst of you.” There’s something supernatural that happens when two or three, minimal, believers are together. There’s something about that.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: There’s also an accountability factor. Most people struggle with temptation and sin and need accountability, need help, need other believers to keep them strong and to share their burdens with. Yeah, you can do that through Zoom or FaceTime or whatever, but it’s just not the same as being live, flesh and blood.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Matter of fact, that’s why you and I are here together today. Season two, we recorded remotely because of the COVID stuff, and we pulled it off. We liked it. We enjoyed it. But both of us were like, “You know what, we have a better energy together when we’re in the same room with the amazing crew at Unmutable recording this and talking about stuff.” Something happens in the body of Christ when people are literally there together.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It really does, Todd. I think about my son who was deployed to Guam for a year, and his daughter had just been born. Of course, he had her picture with him, then he did FaceTime. That’s fine too. There’s nothing like being together with the people you love. That’s part of the body of Christ, is we learn to love one another when we’re together.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Let’s talk about, so how do we as Christians pivot? How do we navigate? How do we course-correct in this season that we’re living in? How do we continue to be the church? How do we continue to be the Christians that God has commanded us to be in the culture that all of a sudden is not friendly towards the whole concept of the church? What are some ways that we begin to do that?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, that’s a great question. We’re still the salt of the earth. Matthew 5:13 and 14 talks about us being the salt of the earth and the light of the world. Salt needs to flavor things. Salt needs to fall on things. We need to be… Even the Great Commission, we look at the Great Commission, in Matthew 28, it says, “Go into all the world.” Well, yeah, there’s an aspect you can do that digitally, but it’s not the same as missionaries going into a people group and loving them, meeting their needs, and that kind of thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I think you’re right. I think we need to get creative as believers. I think for one thing, we need to take this calling to share the Gospel more seriously than we ever have before. Maybe that’s one good aspect of this happening, is that we’re realizing, “Okay, we need to be the church. We need to really do what the Bible says.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: For example, I think I’m more salty, so to speak, when I’m at the gym or on my kids’ soccer fields rubbing shoulders with the world than I am in church, where everybody’s already a believer, or most people, or doing online church, where I can’t even rub shoulders with the world. I think it’s one of those deals where we’ve got to look at our own personal calling, our own personal sphere of influence, and say, “Lord, how can you use me in this?” Of course, everywhere in Scripture, we see where Satan attacks or Satan does something, God always uses it for good. So there’s got to be some good outcome where we can pivot and do church maybe a different way, be Christians a little more seriously. What do you think, Jeff?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. I was just thinking about a quote one of my seminary professors, Norman Geisler, who just passed a few years ago, used to say to us. He said, “Look, if you can’t be a missionary across the street, you’ll never be a missionary across the world.” When I think of Jesus and the commission He obviously gave His disciples in Acts Chapter 1, He said, “Go to Jerusalem.” He said, “Then the Holy Spirit will come upon you.” He said, “You’ll be my witnesses.” Then, Todd, He begins to list out where are they going to be witnesses. He says both in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the outermost part of the earth.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: One of the principles there is that you begin where you are. You don’t have to say, “Okay, well, let’s just jump to this other time of existence when all these restrictions are gone.” You can’t do that. So what about where you are right now? Where has God placed you in this unique moment in history that would have never happened had this COVID thing not happened to us?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Of course, I know a lot of people that are obviously working from home. People there at home, God may want you to focus in on your own family, on your own home relationships in a way that perhaps you never had before. They may get to know a part of you that they don’t want to know, your work self or whatever. But you have to be there at home, so just begin to focus on where you are right now, where has God placed you, and to be the salt and the light, as you mentioned, Todd, where you are at the moment. I think that’s one place that we begin, in just saying, “God, now what can I do where I am now?”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: The second thing, I think, is to begin to use wisdom to think about, now, how can I become creative on ways that I can connect with other people until I can get to that point where I can be with them in person? Now, this may be an opportunity for a lot of Christians, Todd, to think about, how can I have a greater ministry than I’ve had before digitally and through social media, through blogs, through websites or whatever? But just to begin to think about, how can I expand my influence, to extend my reach with the Gospel in my own sphere of influence? Again, whether you’re in person or whether you’re online, if you’re listening to this podcast, you have an influence that I don’t have, that Todd doesn’t have, that the Prophecy Pros don’t have, and so you can reach people in ways that we never could.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I think it involves a little bit of wisdom, it involves creativity, and I think, finally, it involves a sense of believing that we still need to move forward by faith, and not to be content or compliant completely with where we are, because if Satan had his way about it, we’d never leave the house and we’d never meet together as a church and we’d never share the Gospel. Obviously, that’s not God’s will. So we as Christians, without being violent or radical or anything crazy like that, we have to think of ways to continue to push the envelope in getting people back into the marketplace again.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Hey, this is Jeff Kinley. I am so excited to tell you about a special event that’s going to take place that Todd Hampson and I are hosting as the Prophecy Pros. It’s going to be the Ozark Mountain Prophecy Summit. It’s going to be held in Branson, Missouri, April 15th through the 18th.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It features some of the leading voices in Bible prophecy today as our speakers, myself, along with Todd Hampson; Dr. Dave Reagan, which, by the way, is going to be one of his last appearances to ever speak, at our conference; Pastor Billy Crone from Las Vegas will be there; also, Gary Stearman, who’s the host of Prophecy Watchers, is going to be there. All five speakers are coming together for a few days of incredible time of Bible study, Bible prophecy, and also some really cool events. It’s going to be unlike any other prophecy conference you’ve ever attended.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Go to ozarkmountainprophecysummit.com. Sign up today, or ask for more information. We’d love to see you there and to meet you personally. You’re going to get a chance to hang out with the speakers, ask them questions. Again, it’s going to be unlike anything you’ve ever experienced before.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, that’s a great call. I think it’s going to take a lot of prayer too. This is where I would challenge people practically, is just spend some time in prayer and ask God, “Lord, show me how you plan to use me during this time. Show me how I should pivot. Show me who to reach.” I guarantee you if you pray and then connect your prayers with what happens next, as some of the old Bible studies would say, then you’ll get some inclination on what your calling is at this time.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And also just to believe you were called to this time. God is still on the throne. He’s not up there surprised. He saw all this coming, and He has us here at this specific time for a specific purpose. I think if people just pray for God to reveal what they’re supposed to do in this time, I think that’ll go a long way.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I agree. As you look around, you see a lot of people that are fueled by fear right now. Again, at the airport yesterday, a lady was asked by the TSA official to lower her mask so they could match her driver’s license with her face. She didn’t want to do it. She was so afraid that if she lowered her mask, magically she would contract the virus or whatever.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I think the world is fueled by fear right now. Who is moving forward by faith? Who is moving forward with confidence in our culture? Christians need to lead the way on this thing, and so we need to model that with people, again, not to be reckless or to be obnoxious or to be abrasive, but at the same time, just to model a sense of confidence, a sense of knowing that God does have this thing, just like examples we see in Scripture where these people are walking countercultural, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, Daniel. You’ve got Peter and John in Acts. All of the apostles, they continued to walk counter-culture. When the culture said shut up and stay home, they said, “No, we’re not going to do this.” Of course, most of them met their demise. They were persecuted and martyred for their faith.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I do think, to a certain degree, there’s going to be an increasing level of persecution. We’ll talk about that in another podcast. But at the same time, this is a time for Christians to have a gut check and say, “You know what, what do I believe? Am I going to just continue to flow in the lazy-river narrative that the world’s going to give to me, or am I going to listen to God’s agenda?” I think we need to take our cues from the Scripture, and it forces us, Todd, really to be who God’s called us to be, which is that salt and light.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. Those examples you used were perfect. Those guys, they didn’t do anything purposely obnoxious, but they came to a line in the sand where, “This is where my faith is. I’m not budging,” and they lived out their faith. I think it is becoming more like the first century, and maybe that’s a good thing, where God is shaking us out of our cultural Christianity and forcing us to really live it out in a way that maybe we haven’t in our entire lifetimes. That’s a healthy thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Now, one last question… I should also say we should be the ones, just to reiterate what you said, that live with hope and joy and courage. We win. We know God’s got all this under control. We need to really put our faith in Him and know that His hand is still on the wheel. Since this is on… We’re the Prophecy Pros, so, Jeff, how does this line up with end-time Bible prophecy? Do you see any foreshocks, so to speak, or things setting the stage?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Obviously, when you look at the Book of Revelation, you see there’s a massive crackdown on Christians, because the narrative in that day, and leading in our next episode, is the mark of the beast. The Antichrist is going to put massive pressure on people to conform and to accept what the world government is giving to them. This I believe is, and we’ll talk about this again in the next episode, but just a foreshock of what’s coming.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: We have to be wise about that and to not be naive, to think, “Oh, well, our government knows what’s best for us, or the world knows. Or the news agencies, they know what’s best for us.” It’s like, no, only God’s Word will give us the real truth, because there’s so much fake news that’s out there concerning all this.Jeff: I do think, again, it’s sort of like these birth pangs that women have before they give birth. Sometimes they’re called Braxton Hicks contractions. They aren’t really leading to the birth. They’re fake news-
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But you know the birth is coming.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But the birth is going to come. When you start feeling that pain, then at least tells you that we are in a season that these things are beginning to build.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. We’re noticing a lot of people are asking questions, really, that have never asked these questions before because of everything going on, so you and I threw together this quick reference guide, which is a short little booklet that we’re encouraging people to give to pastors and small group leaders and anybody, even just everyday lay Christians who maybe never before really thought about eschatology or the end times, but all of a sudden, the past year or so, they’re like, “This sounds a lot like some of the stuff I saw in an old movie about the end times, or that I heard my pastor talk about.” It’s thicker than a tract, but it’s a little booklet. It’s really easy to give away. We wanted to put that out as a resource for people.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It is. It’s just like a 64-page little booklet that you can get. In fact, lots of people I’ve known are buying them in bulk and saying, “Hey, I want to give these out to my friends.” They’re like six bucks a piece or whatever.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s a really great tool that people can use as a way to open the conversation. Again, we’re talking about being wise during this time. Yeah, you can send a book or you can drop it by someone’s house. That’s a way just to at least open the door, perhaps, for people to say, “Yeah, these things these guys are talking about, they’re happening in my world today.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And that’s just a part of wisdom. We as Christians, again, we need to be the wisest people on the planet because we have the mind of Christ, and because of that, Todd, I think we can make inroads, penetrate the darkness with the light, and continue to be who Christ has called us to be.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen. Be encouraged. Do not let what’s going on around us, from the masks and the lockdowns and social distancing… We’re recording this in January. I would suspect that within a few months we might see more lockdowns and more things happening. In my gut feel, that’s kind of what we see coming.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But don’t let that discourage you. Just know that God’s hand is still on the wheel. He knows what’s going on. He has us here at this time for a purpose. Let’s serve Him like we’ve never served Him before, and let’s be the ones that lead the way in terms of being full of hope, full of joy, full of courage, and full of just confidence in God’s Word and God’s Word alone.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen. And just to know, too, Todd and I are cheering you on. We are cheering for you and praying for you and encouraging you through these podcasts, but even more, the Holy Spirit who lives within you is bearing witness with your spirit that these things are true and that you need to continue to be who God’s called you to be.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: God’s richest blessings on you. Continue to listen to the Prophecy Pros Podcast. We’ll be here with another episode for you next time.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Did you know you can find the Prophecy Pros on the Edifi Network? That’s right. We’re there now, and we’re getting massive exposure. So cool. It’s E-D-I-F-I, the Edifi Network. Check it out, subscribe, and listen with other podcasts, as well, on that great network.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: As always, we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for making this possible. We could not do this without them.
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,87 +0,0 @@
|
||||
|
||||
![[S3E2: COVID Vaccines and the End Times?.mp3]]
|
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Jeff: Welcome to the Prophecy Pros Podcast season three. We are so excited to be with you guys again. I’m Jeff Kinley, along with my co-host and compadre here, Todd Hampson. And we’re excited today, we’re going to talk about COVID vaccines and the end times. All right, Todd, so there’s a lot of white noise out there right now about all these vaccines that are coming out and there’s dozens of vaccines really across the world, they’re coming out to supposedly inoculate people against the COVID vaccine. And there’s a lot of confusion, a lot of divisiveness on this issue, especially in the Christian community. So we want to begin by talking about that and just a quick little anecdote, we have just experienced a move in our ministry in our family, and we moved back to Little Rock, Arkansas. And so we’re settling in, getting to know our new neighbors. And so a couple came over to a great us to the neighborhood and found out we were Christians and we began to talk.
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And one of the first things that came out of this wonderful woman’s mouth, she just said, “You know what? I believe the vaccine is the mark of the beast.” And it’s not the first time I’ve heard that. That’s not the first time someone’s emailed me or messaged me or what do you think and all this stuff, and so we want to address that today. Talk about these vaccines. Let’s talk about what they are a little bit. How they sort of impact us as Christians. And then talk about, does this relate truly to the mark of the beast and or the end times?
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Todd: I would say the past… well, since the vaccine started being released and frontline workers are taking it and that sort of thing, I think Israel has a plan where every citizen is going to be vaccinated by April or somewhere around that timeframe. So it’s on everybody’s mind. The questions I’m getting the most lately are regarding this vaccine. Should we take it? Is it the mark of the beast? My daughter had a great conversation with her, a friend of hers was really fearful that it was indeed the mark of the beast.
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This is where Bible prophecy and Bible study benefits you, I was able to tell her, well, no, I mean, it could be setting the stage for it. Yes, a lot of the technology lines up with what it could be, but that does not take place till the three and a half year mark in the tribulation period and we get raptured before all of that. So that’s not something we have to worry about and we’ll unpack that with scripture and stuff here in a minute. But the other question is the bigger question, now I’m getting from people is, should I take it because A, it required the use of aborted baby cells. And I get that. And also the way it was rushed and it that it uses the RNA vaccine techniques. So that’s something new. So there’s all these legitimate questions that people have.
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And then to confuse matters more, just to be honest, within the prophecy community, the eschatology experts, you have differing opinions. Some saying, “There’s no way I’ll ever take this.” Others saying, “It’s safe. Hey, I have Christian doctors telling me it’s completely safe.” And there are one or two, at least I think that don’t involve the use of aborted babies. And I totally get that. We need to stand for life in every way. We don’t need to benefit from the loss of an aborted baby. God sees that as something he does not like. But anyway, so that’s the main question I’m getting right now in real time. And like with every other topic we’re going over, it’s almost like you don’t know where to turn. You don’t know what the right answer is. So we really need to study this and look at what scripture says about it.
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Jeff: It’s kind of like, who can you trust on this whole vaccine issue? There are certain vaccines that have been known to have used aborted parts of babies involved in their testings and their trials. Others use monkeys and that type of thing. But the bottom line is you obviously don’t want to be a part of that. So it requires a little bit of research. But backing up just a little bit here, Todd, concerning technology, because the medical field here is using this vaccine thing, but you came across some other research about just how technology is rapidly advancing that does or could relate to the mark of the beast and has some sort of connection to how vaccines are administered. Talk about that for a moment.
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Todd: We try to be Bereans, so to speak, and do our research and make sure we’re researching these things before we talk to you guys, because we want to give good information. And to be honest, we’ll be real when we don’t know. And we’ll be real when we do know, and here are some things I found. There’s a thing called a Quantum Dot tattoo, it is real. It’s a small set of needles that goes into the hand or the skin. And those needles stay embedded in the skin. And that’s where the vaccine is, and it dissolves into your skin and inoculates, but it also has, oddly enough, a chemical in it called luciferase that lights up, and I’m not sure I need to do a little more study, I don’t know if it lights up just in regular light, I think you have to have some kind of special scanner or something, but could you imagine there’s a thing out right now where you can get a vaccine where they can scan your forehead or your hand, and it literally lights up to let them know if you’ve had the vaccine.
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Georgia Tech released an online YouTube video about this little teeny patch, it’s called a self administer patch, where people can give themselves vaccines using this Quantum Dot technique. And then there’s even another thing a lot of listeners have probably heard of the Internet of Things, where the times come in where every product… everything is going to be connected to a database and the internet theoretically, so that companies can know what products are selling, where it is in transit, all that kind of stuff. But literally everything’s going to be connected. And there’s thing I researched and vetted and it’s on like major technology websites, mainstream technology websites, there’s a thing coming called the Internet of Bodies. Where you’re either using wearable products or pills you swallow or vaccines that you can take that do have some kind of component that will communicate information to a database about your health or your heartbeat or whatever it is.
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And then of course the RNA thing, from the research I’ve done, a lot of people are saying the vaccine will change your DNA. In Revelation, when they take the mark of the beast, it doesn’t say it’ll change your DNA, but we do know for sure it says that those people are non redeemable. There’s no way they can be saved after they take the mark. And later on down the line, all of those people have terrible sores all over their body. So it seems like something medical goes wrong or something connected with the mark, but it doesn’t say that explicitly.
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So we need to be careful to point that out. But from what I’ve read, the RNA communicates outward from the cell. It doesn’t impact DNA. I’m not a medical expert at all. This is just from the research that I’ve seen. So from what it looks like, it can’t change your DNA, but it is new technology that has never been used before in vaccines. And then you have strange people like Bill Gates, pushing it like crazy, why are we listening to a computer expert about world vaccines, right? And that’s a rabbit hole you can go down. There’s a lot of research you can do that suggests he’s done some shady things. And of course he’s connected to globalism and all that.
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But anyway, not to go too deep, especially if we have listeners that aren’t familiar with eschatology and prophecy and all that, but all that to say, we’ve done some research. We don’t know the answer. It’s probably going to come down to your personal choice. Frontline workers in medical areas are already kind of being forced to take it. There’s several countries, I think France and Russia announced this week that… or maybe it’s Spain and Russia, I can’t remember, that they’re going to require people who are flying there to have a passport of sorts. So there’s a lot going on and we’re trying to figure it out just like you guys are.
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Jeff: I think that’s part of where the concern is, Todd, is that not only technologically for the first time in ever are people able to take this kind of vaccine in different ways, but also as you mentioned, travel restrictions. I mean, many people do international commerce. You can’t do all international commerce digitally. But even just traveling for leisure, many countries are going to require you to have the vaccine before you enter their country. People can’t go back to work. They’re not going to be able to go back to work, many of them, unless they have the vaccine. And that certainly lines up with scripture, you can’t buy or sell and you can’t work, you can’t buy or sell, right. But also I think one of the other things that’s making this kind of spike in people’s minds as Christians is that because it’s so global. And of course we know that’s a part of the mark of the beast that, it’s an essence being forced, quote, unquote upon people on the heels of great deception. I heard one prophecy expert, so to speak, on a Christian-
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Todd: He just did air quotes.
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Jeff: Yes. I did do air quotes here, there you go. [inaudible] to the sky. But just did this TV program where someone said, “Yeah, we’ve heard it’s possible that the antichrist could take Satan’s blood and mix it in the vaccine and disseminate that to the world. And that’s how you take the mark of the beast.” And I said to myself, how in the world are they going to find Satan’s blood? How does that even happen? Because he’s not a physical being, but anyway, spiritual being. But all that to say is there’s wild theories about the vaccine, but let’s talk about what scripture actually says. In revelation chapter 13, and of course the timing of this, Todd, as you set this up is that we’re three and a half years into the tribulation period.
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So we are post rapture in our view of eschatology, the end times. We’re post rapture, we are three and a half years into it. At this point, there is a second member of the Unholy Trinity, Satan, the antichrist and the false prophet. And he’s the one that gives breath to the life of this image of the beast, that’s going to be shown to the whole world. And in chapter 13, revelation, verse 16 says, “And he causes all, the small and the great and the rich and the poor and the free man and the slaves.” That pretty much covers everybody on earth, right there. Okay. It says, “To be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead. And he provides that no one should be able to buy or to sell except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
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Hey, this is Jeff Kinley. I’m so excited to tell you about a special event that’s going to take place. Todd Hampson and I are hosting as the Prophecy Pros. It’s going to be the Ozark Mountain Prophecy Summit. It’s going to be held in Branson, Missouri, April 15th through the 18th. And it features some of the leading voices in Bible prophecy today as our speakers. Myself, along with Todd Hampson, Dr. Dave Reagan, which by the way, is going to be one of his last appearances to ever speak at our conference. Our pastor Billy Crone’s from Las Vegas will be there. Also Gary Stearman who’s the host of Prophecy Watchers, going to be there. All five speakers are coming together for a few days of incredible time of Bible study, Bible prophecy and also some really cool events.
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It’s going to be unlike any other prophecy conference you’ve ever attended. Go to ozarkmountainprophecysummit.com, sign up today or ask for more information. We’d love to see you there and to meet you personally. You’re going to get a chance to hang out with the speakers, ask them questions. And again, it’s going to be unlike anything you’ve ever experienced before.
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Here’s a couple of observations we can make. This is good Bible study methods right here, okay. Just to observe, number one is that this mark is going to be on one of two places, on the right hand or on the forehead. And John is very specific in the language that he chose there, it’s the word [foreign language] is the word on, it just literally means on the surface. There’s no opportunity here for this mark to be something that is necessarily in the body, but it’s on the hand, it’s an identifiable mark, more so than something that’s going to be in the bloodstream. So the second thing is that the word mark itself is a Greek word [foreign language], which was used in the first century to describe everything from the image on a coin that is stamped or an actual tattoo. And many times soldiers would have a tattoo of an emblem or something representing a commanding officer and just showing their allegiance to that commanding officer.
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So the mark of the beast is something that, number one, comes halfway into the tribulation period. But secondly, it’s an actual mark that signifies a person. It’s not a medical thing at all. It’s something that signifies a person and it tells the world that you have a loyalty and allegiance. In fact, a worshipful allegiance to this person called antichrist. From that alone, we can confidently say that the vaccine is definitely not the mark of the beast. So there’s no fear involved in that. Now there may be some other concerns we can address, but in terms of it being the mark of the beast… and if the vaccine is the mark of the beast, the bad news is you’re halfway into the tribulation period right now.
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And this is not good. We know that hasn’t happened because the things that the Bible says happened in the first part of the tribulation have not happened in the world. So again, scripture becomes our compass. It’s our true North. It guides us. And look how much clarity the scripture gives us on an issue like this. So whenever people say this, just know that they either have not done their research in scripture or they’re unaware of what scripture says or whatever or they’re just propagating false information. So definitely the vaccine is not the mark of the beast.
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Todd: Yes. We can say that conclusively. So you can put that to rest for sure. And even after the mark is given in Revelation 13 and revelation 14, we have the 144,000, and apparently branding is a big thing in the tribulation because the 144,000 are sealed or branded. So what’s behind a brand even if you think of brand marks in graphic design, it represents the bigger picture. It represents the organization that that brand is from. So you’re right. When people take the mark, they’re going to know what they’re doing. It’s not just a medical thing. They are saying I’m aligning with the anti-Christ. [crosstalk]
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Jeff: It’s not going to be a deceptive thing in the sense that, you take the vaccine and six months later, Oh, by the way, you just pledged alligation to Satan.
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Todd: Exactly.
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Jeff: It’s not that at all. Obviously there could be other medical concerns, other moral concerns that that people would have. And we both have talked about this is that you need to really do the research on what kind of vaccine that you take. I mean, you would do that if you were for a political candidate, you’d want to know what the issues were and that kind of thing, do the same thing. We’re not someone here’s going to tell you what to do or which vaccine to take, if you’re going to take one, but you do need to do the research and to figure that out for yourself.
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So you can make a wise and informed decision. But I think part of this discussion, Todd, and again, this really alleviates kind of not just the fear, but the phobic type of fear that people have about, am I going to take the mark of the beast? So the scripture does give us clarity on that. But I think one of the good things that have come out of this is that Christians that have never really thought about Revelation, they really thought about the end times are beginning to connect dots, even if they’re not dots that should be connected. They’re beginning to think, “Wow, this sounds like end time stuff.” And this is one of the reasons why you and I write the books that we do. I mean, you talked about the Quick Reference Guide to the End Times that you can buy an Amazon.
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But my book Interview with the Antichrist, really it’s a fiction novel, but it chronicles this whole thing and concludes with 30 questions about the antichrist at the end. Your books the Non-Prophet’s Guide to Revelation, Non-Prophet’s Guide to the End Times, these all address these things. And here’s the principle, kind of the overarching general principle here, is that when we bathe our minds and scripture, some of this discernment comes natural to us. We don’t have to go through this period of confusion, this period of concern, even a period of fear, we automatically know, no God’s already said this, so I know this is not true.
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And so now all I need is the wisdom to know how to walk through some of these things. But I do think it’s very interesting that Christians are beginning to connect what’s happening now to the end times, to the book of Revelation. And that in a sense, I think, is by God’s design as well. Because he wants to wake the bride. He wants our spiritual eyes to be dilated to what’s happening around us. And then to really connect, if possible, the scripture to those type of things.
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Todd: It’s so true. And like you said, that is exactly why we write the books we write, because it is more than you can unpack in a quick… I mean, thankfully we have this venue to be able to share and just kind of set some fears aside, but it is more important now than ever for people to study scripture. in the Non-Prophet’s Guide to the End Times, I talk about how to interpret Bible prophecy. And then in the Non-Prophet’s Guide to Revelation, it’s a chronological walk through the book of Revelation. So that forced me to do really in-depth study to where… you’re right, a lot of the stuff that you hear being floated out there immediately, you can just write it off, because I’ve already studied this in scripture and scripture is very clear. And as we mentioned in the last episode, now more than ever, because there are so many competing voices, so much deception, so much confusion, so much fear, now more than ever, we need to let scripture and scripture alone guide us because it’s more accurate than the news.
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It’s more accurate than anything else. And Jeff, I was going to say one more thing, I love your… I think I shared with you last year, riding back from NRB, I listened to your Interview with Antichrist, on Audiobook to kill time. And I was just riveted that my six hour trip seemed like it went by in an hour. So if people are more like a narrative kind of thing, your book is phenomenal and it really does unpack scripture exactly like the Bible. I mean, you fill in some gaps and use some creative license, but like you said, at the end, there’s a whole series of questions and all the references. So if people like that kind of either audio books or just more narrative story-driven stuff that is a phenomenal resource.
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Jeff: Well, I’m just glad I didn’t put you to sleep because you were driving.
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Todd: Naah. Kept me awake.
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Jeff: Well, here’s what we know for sure. This whole vaccine thing is not going away. It’s not going to just fade into the sunset. All of a sudden, we’re not going to have, administration is going to say, “You know what? We were thinking about vaccines, but what the heck. Everybody just go back to what you’re doing.” So it’s going to continue to confront us. So for Christians, I think number one is to do the research, do your homework on this thing, ask your doctor. And you may need to ask more than one doctor to get their take on these things, ask the kind of questions that impact you as a believer. And again, we talked about the aborted babies being used.
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Maybe that’s something you check into different vaccines that are using, are they being used right now, that you do the research in there and make sure that you avoid that. And then finally just weigh your options. Because I mean, right now you and I both are scheduled to travel internationally in a couple of months. And we may be forced to make a decision on this thing, whether or not to take a vaccine. And I’m not saying that it’s evil to take a vaccine. It’s just that we just need to not blindly accept everything that’s being put in our lap, but to walk forward with wisdom and wisdom gives us confidence, Todd. As we do that kind of research, we can make that kind of impact in the world.
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And so COVID vaccines, end times, yes, these are things that are heightening our awareness. That are causing us to wake up, to look around and that’s a good thing, but make sure as we do that, we are getting into resources, mostly the scripture, but also other resources like books and podcasts and things like that, that are going to further confirm what the Bible says so that we can walk forward with confidence.
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Todd: Yeah. So true. And we mentioned this in the last episode, as well as, now more than ever, we need to deepen our walk with the Lord, I think, and I’m guilty of this, sometimes we’ve been so used to just having clear cut cookie cutter answers for everything that we haven’t had to really douse it in prayer. This is one of those issues where, think about it, different people have different choices to make. You have some believers who are frontline medical workers or coaches everywhere in our area are being… they have to take it, if they’re going to be… so different people have different approaches and everything that you just mentioned too, about research and the individual vaccines and how it was created and all that.
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So all that to say, now more than ever, I think as individual believers, we need to pray and trust that God is going to show it. The Holy Spirit will guide us into righteousness to know what to do and his situation. And this like many other issues right now, there is no cookie cutter answer. So it’s a matter of preference and prayer and relying on the Holy Spirit and trusting that God’s going to guide each individual believer.
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Jeff: Amen. And we avoid the extreme when saying all vaccines are the boogeyman, on the other side to say, “Hey, just put a needle into me, put whatever you want to in my body.” So there’s wisdom. And that’s the great thing, is that Christians sometimes want to be told what to do or we want to just say, “Just tell me what I should do.” We’re not going to do that. We’re going to give you principles so that you can make informed wise decisions. You know why? Because we trust the Holy Spirit who lives inside of you.
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Todd: Amen.
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Jeff: And we want you to be able to walk that path on your own using the information that God gives us in his word and also the wisdom that we use in walking culture. So, hope there has been encouragement for you and really helps not just to inform you, but to help inspire you to continue to live for Jesus Christ in a world that is marked by great confusion.
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Did you know you can find the Prophecy Pros on the Edifi Network? That’s right. We’re there now and we’re getting massive exposure. So cool. It’s E-D-I-F-I, the Edifi Network, check it out, subscribe and listen with other podcasts as well on that great network.
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Todd: And as always, we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for making this possible. We could not do this without them.
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@ -1,101 +0,0 @@
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![[S3E3: Politics, Elections, and Bible Prophecy.mp3]]
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Todd: Welcome back to Prophecy Pros podcast, season three, and this is episode three, and we’re going to get really contentious today. We’re going to talk about politics, elections and Bible prophecy. Hold onto your seat. We’re going to get started in just a sec.Jeff, obviously we’re recording this in January. We just walked through the whole craziness with the election and all the stuff surrounding that, and then everything that happened at the Capitol. This is actually before the inauguration day when we’re recording this, so who knows what will happen then. There’s a lot of divisive things going on, even within the body of Christ related to politics and everything that just happened.
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In terms of being a believer, how should we respond to that? Do we align with a political party? Do we put our hope in that, in America that was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and has had such a history? Obviously now we’re a post-Christian culture, post-Christian country, so how in the heck are we supposed to kind of wade through all of that in a way that maintains Christian unity and in a way that gives us clarity on what we should do right now?
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Jeff: Yeah. These are really confusing times and really divisive times. In fact, I don’t know how we can become more divisive as a country.
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Todd: Yeah.
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Jeff: I mean, even within political parties, it’s like this multi-headed hydra. We just keep splintering off and creating these new little entities, even within political parties. I think one of the things that’s going on right now in this whole post-election thing, and of course people weigh in about was the election stolen and how much fraud and corruption that’s involved. I always tell my wife … I wrote a book one time about the sin nature. I said, you can always bet on the sin nature. The sin nature’s going to come through and do crooked and corrupt things, so things like that don’t surprise me. But I think from a Christian standpoint, Todd, a lot of Christians are really scratching their heads here, because they’re seeing what a critical state our country is in right now, and so much led up to this. So many rallies, so much just cohesion among the Christian community about, yes, we’re going to keep America great kind of thing, if you’re of that persuasion, which I think most Christians were. I think they’re saying this, we prayed, we voted, what happened?
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Todd: Yeah.
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Jeff: I think that’s what people are doing right now. They’re sort of wondering how did we lose this game? I mean, I thought we were ahead by 40 points in the fourth quarter and somehow we lost the game.
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Todd: Right.
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Jeff: How did this happen? I think one of the things that’s going on right now, and we’re not going to get into whether or not the election was stolen and things like that. Those are debates that are going to go on for time.
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Todd: Right.
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Jeff: I think one of the principles, Todd, that I’ve observed in the Christian world, evangelical Christianity, is that for 200 years or so we had our government that pretty much had our back morally. The official kind of stand of our government pretty much was in line with Christianity and with Biblical Judeo-Christian values, and so it hasn’t been really the past 30 or 40 years that we have strayed dramatically from that, where government now is not only not supporting Christian values, but is supporting the antithesis, the opposite of Christian values. I think it’s almost like evangelical Christianity has viewed our American government as almost like a big brother. I use that metaphorically. I mean, it is big brother now.
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Todd: Yeah. It’s becoming a different kind of big brother now.
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Jeff: The good big brother that you had. It’s like, “My big brother come and fight you on the playground,” kind of thing. I think we sort of saw that, is that we’ve leaned upon our big brother, our government, to kind of have our back, but all of a sudden there’s been a Jekyll/Hyde switch that’s gone on there. The government’s not going to do our job for us anymore, Todd. That’s a good thing, I think, in a sense, because it causes Christians to go, wait a minute, so the church has to be the church. The government’s not going to take care of us there. So in that, it is what it is, and here we find ourselves in this moment politically, and we have to really begin to do some reevaluation about what the Bible says we are, what a country is, and what do you do when you suddenly find yourself under an administration or in a country, even culturally, just minus the government, even culturally, that is really turning against Christians?
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Todd: Yeah. I forget who it was, one of the founding fathers, had a quote that was something like democracy will only work if the people are righteous, if the people are following the same principles. That’s true. This is where a little bit of a history lesson is important for people, especially, we speak a lot to millennials and younger who may not realize with the ’60s and the sexual revolution and all that, if you read American history from the ’60s until now, it reads exactly like the second half of Romans one, God’s abandonment judgment. Like you said, we had all these prayer rallies on the mall, and good godly people praying for God to heal our country, and not even really taking a side politically, just God show up. Help us to have revival. Help us to turn back to you.
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||||
Millions of people prayed, but God did not answer in the way that many of them wanted to. It really seems like it’s kind of the end of that abandonment wrath, so to speak, in Romans chapter one. It’s not that God’s active wrath is on us, but he’s a gentleman. If we keep pushing him out, eventually he’s going to say, okay, I’m out. That’s not to say he’s not in control or he’s not sovereign. He is sovereign, and that’s what we can put our hope in, the fact that he is sovereign and that he knows what’s going on and has us here at this time for a purpose.Jeff: Absolutely. What it really brings home, the point Todd, is that we are officially living in a post-Christian culture. This has not been something that happened during this election. It’s been happening all along. Back in 2017, I wrote a book called The End of America? A Country in Crisis.
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Todd: That’s more relevant now than it was when you wrote it.
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Jeff: Yeah. I mean, it’s like I wrote it then, but the things that I wrote about then have really only been exacerbated since that point. They’ve only increased in their intensity. It really, again, goes back to Romans one, because even talking about these subjects, even our listeners right now, they may be thinking, wait a minute. Is it is a Trump versus Biden kind of thing? no, it’s really a Bible prophecy thing versus the world, regardless about who is in office. In Romans one, we really do see this process of abandonment, how God delivers an individual, a culture, a nation, a civilization, really, over to themselves. It says three times in chapter one, God gave them over, God gave them over, and this is a judicial phrase here, which literally means to release someone to their own chains, to their own slavery. God’s not saying y’all can go have fun now. He’s saying, I’m going to let you be enslaved to the things that you have chosen.
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Todd: You think this is what you wanted, huh?
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Jeff: Yeah. You think this is great. What’s very interesting, in the very first part of that over in verse 21, it says, even though they knew God, they didn’t honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish hearts were darkened. One of the principles that we see really in politics and elections is that the more we push God out, we think we’re becoming enlightened. What happens is we’re turning the dimmer switch down with every choice that we make, and God says, hey, you are free to make choices, but you’re not free in the consequences of those choices. Of course, here it begins with denying God as the creator. Then it goes on to say, once you take God out of the picture, you’re left to your own imaginations. You essentially become a blind person in a dark room, that’s trying to describe the contents of the room, and yet at the same time, it says in verse 22, professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
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We get to the point as a culture, as a nation, where we actually think we’re smarter than God, but God says, no, you’re not smart. You’re fools. That word fool there is the word moros. We get our word moron from. It really is true. We become absolute morons when we deny who God is. What’s happened, Todd, is we think we know more about reproductive choices than God does, know more about the essence of what life is than God does, we know more about gender and sexuality than God does, we know more about love than God does, we know more about marriage than God does. God, essentially, in verses 24 through verse 28, he just says, all right, then here’s what you get. Todd, it’s not a pretty picture.
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Todd: It’s not.
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Jeff: That’s what we’re seeing here. We’re seeing this gradual devolution, if you will, of our country through some of the choices that we’ve made politically and morally.
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Todd: Yeah. It really is. It is heartbreaking because we love our country.
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Jeff: Yes.
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Todd: There’s many people who love our country. On the good side of that, I think God can use it to help us to detach from that big brother a little bit that we’d been relying on and focus on living for him. I mean, if you think about it, if you read scripture, Israel at one point lived under paganism, first century church lived under paganism and thrived. It wasn’t an easy time for the church. Honestly, just being real, some of those times may be coming back. I hear a lot of people talk about a great end time awakening. Just to be honest, I don’t see that in scripture. I see a falling away. I see a waning, a movement away from God. Of course, we’ll see pockets of people coming to the Lord because he loves people. He wants to reach everyone, especially if we’re as close to the end times as we think we are.
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Hey, thanks so much for tuning in today and listening to this episode of the Prophecy Pros podcast. We know that when we study Bible prophecy or talk about it, one answered question might lead to other questions you have. So we have a special place set up on the website where you can go and ask Jeff and I a question. Just go to prophecyprospodcast.com. There, you can also learn more about our books, where to find them and other resources. We thank you so much for tuning in. Be sure to share this. Subscribe, like, and anything else you can do to let your friends and family know about the Prophecy Pros podcast.With all that, how should we now live? How do we navigate through this at this time, Jeff?
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Jeff: Yeah. Again, I think we’re becoming more like the first century church than we have ever been in the last 2000 years. Now, if you think about it for a second, these first century Christians, they weren’t marching, they weren’t protesting. They certainly weren’t storming Caesar’s castle kind of thing, his stronghold there, but they grew up under a regime that was very hostile to any other faith other than the gods, the multiplicity of gods that Rome worshiped. Of course, Caesar worship as well. When Christianity came along, it became really a direct threat to Rome because it began to grow. There began to be persecution. Scripture tells us to pray for our elected leaders or for our leaders, rather. Peter says, honor the king. Well, who’s the king? He’s Caesar. Well, who’s Caesar there? He’s talking about Nero.
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Todd: One most one of the most evil guys that’s ever lived.
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Jeff: Yeah, I mean Nero would basically light his gardens with the bodies of Christians. He would impale them upon stakes, dip them in paraffin and they would become giant candles in his garden parties. The guy was crazy, probably from some venereal disease, but all that to say is honor the king. Now, what does that mean? Well, Romans 13, later in Romans, Paul talks about the fact that there’s no government that hasn’t been established by God. So we are to be citizens that are to live peaceable lives under a kingdom, whether it be a Christian or a pagan regime.
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We find ourselves in this moment in a time where there’s a lot of fear, a lot of rumors going around. What’s this new president going to do? How’s it going to affect the church? How’s it going to affect Christians? How’s it going to affect our freedom? What things are going to be forced upon us? What values in the marketplace as they’re going to be forced paying for medical insurance that’s going to provide for abortions. There’s so many different things and issues. The main thing that God wants us to know is that we cannot count upon the government to basically come in, to save us, to encourage us, to provide for us, to support the church. We have to stick to what he’s given to us. What this does, Todd, is I think this whole election, I hope, has awakened Christians to the fact that all we really have that is sure is our faith and the word of God. When we consult the word, when we know what the word says, this becomes an indisputable guide for us.
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Even our constitution that we rest upon as our country, we can’t depend upon that to even provide for us because so many people are acting against the things that are, I believe, unconstitutional. Our freedoms are slowly being eroded in this country. But guess what? Christians in China are thriving. Christians in North Korea are thriving.
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Todd: Even Iran.
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Jeff: Even Iran. Yeah. I mean, they’re living under these regimes that are very hostile to their faith, but guess what? It is purifying their faith. It’s causing them to really say, what is most important? It’s almost like, Todd, when there’s a house fire and you’re sifting through the rubble, but you say, do you know what? At least my family was saved. That’s the most important thing. It’s like what would you take if your house was on fire? Well, God is saying those are the most important things. The Lord is really gearing our thoughts and he’s gearing our spirits to begin to say, what are the priorities of being a Christian and living in a world that is not sympathetic to who we are?
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Todd: Yeah, yeah. That’s well put. The other day I was really praying through this as we were preparing for this. I was like, Lord, what should we share with people? How should we live at this time? Immediately I had the impression, just a reminder of missionaries that I’ve known that have been on a field and a few mission trips I’ve taken, but seeing those full-time missionaries in some of the most unstable countries you could imagine. I know a good friend of mine’s a full-time missionary in Haiti. Our church supports a couple of missionaries in Haiti and I’ve been there. The government there has never been stable. It’s always corrupt. I mean the history there is just … nothing there is stable. Everything’s broken, but the missionaries just focus … do you know what they focus on? Preaching the gospel, the great commission, baptizing people, meeting real physical needs to point people to Christ.
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I think it’s becoming more and more a thing like that, where we need to focus on what really matters. I think of Colossians 3:2 that says, “Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things,” or Matthew 6:21. It’s really a giving verse, but in the context of this, it applies to just our hearts and where they should be. It says, “Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. We need to start detaching from the things of the world and prayerfully asking, God, what am I relying on other than you that I need to shed and focus my attention on just trusting you during this time?
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Jeff: Absolutely. Yeah. The world says to us, be political. That’s what the world says to us. God says, be spiritual.
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Todd: Fight for your rights.
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Jeff: Fight for your rights. That’s right. Not to say, if God calls you into the political realm, that’s fine. That’s great. Be that person. He may call you to do that, but here’s the thing. A couple of things is that we are so easily baited into some of these arguments and some of these controversies and that kind of thing. For a Christian, we need to rise above that and point people to something greater that is neither Republican nor Democrat, something that is much more significant, much more eternal, much more meaningful to their life now and in eternity, and that is to Jesus Christ.
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I have lots of friends who are on the left, who are liberal leaning and that type of thing, and there have been times when I’ve been tempted to be baited into this discussion, even when I think I’m right, but the deal is, is that I don’t know of one single social media post that has completely revolutionized someone’s thinking and just changed their hearts completely. Oh, what was I thinking for the past 30 years? You’ve been right all along. That’s just not going to happen. It really just becomes a shouting match more than anything else. Don’t be drawn into those kinds of things. Stick to what is most important.
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It’s like on the football field, when you’re on the kickoff, you stay in your lane. That’s what you’re supposed to do. You’re supposed to do your job, play the position that God has called you to play in this world. Don’t try to be somebody else. Yes, it’s good to be informed by other people that are very knowledgeable and experts in their field. At the same time, you’re not going to lead one single person to Jesus Christ by being political or by taking a stand.
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We’ve got to go back to what God has called us to do and to realize, do you know what? For the next four years, things may get increasingly more challenging for us as believers. I mean, depending on what happens with the incoming president, what happens with him while he’s in office. There are many things that could go on, but even in the worst of times, Christians throughout the centuries, and even in Biblical times, have suffered and yet thrived under these type of regimes and governments. We can do the same because guess what? The same Holy Spirit that was in the first century church lives in us today. We’ve got more knowledge than they do because we’ve got the completed word of God.
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Todd: Amen, amen. Like you said, this is a time where maybe the benefit is people can discover their calling. I think it’s a time more than ever to God, what are you calling me to do? For example, I have two or three friends that are just hilarious. They could sneeze and it makes you laugh. I could tell the same joke they did and it falls completely flat. I’m just not funny. I think I’m funny sometimes, but my kids remind me, they’re just dad jokes. All that to say, I don’t try to be the comedian. At this stage of life, I’ve wrestled with what is my calling, what is my lane? I think it’s important for all of us to know that. Scripture says that, that God has good works prepared in advance for us to bump into so to speak. Each of us has a calling at this very time.
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One last verse, Philippians 3:20, reminds us our citizenship is in heaven. This isn’t our home, this isn’t the final act. God wins. We win with him. We have nothing but great things to look forward to. As you said, Jeff, I do think it’s a time where we need to amp up our courage like never before. We’re probably going to face more tough things, but God never leaves us. He never forsakes us. He knows our needs and he’s going to provide for us. That’s a healthy thing. We need to switch our mindset from being broken hearted and worried about the division in our country, and doing what we can as believers to heal that division and to trust him in the middle of it.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. There are ways that Christians can have impact on a local level politically. Obviously being involved politically on a local level. As far as it concerns our nation right now, I think we need to make sure that we are seeing the God’s big picture to see that Bible prophecy is moving forward and the stage is being set. Like tributaries in a river, they’re converging into this one great river of a prophetic narrative toward the end times. Also, the things that are happening in our country now are becoming to be more sympathetic with globalism, which is what we’re going to talk about in the next podcast. So it really is kind of leading us that way. Really it’s a progression of history, but remember that history is his story. It is God’s story that he’s telling, and not one thing is going to be missed. We’re not going to miss anything in God’s prophetic narrative. God’s going to make sure that everything he says in his word is going to happen.
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Todd, as we talk about in our little quick reference, A Book to the End Times, is that if all the previous prophecies in the Old Testament were fulfilled literally and exactly as God said they would be, then why would we not expect that all future prophecies would be fulfilled in the same way? Everything we read in Revelation is going to happen just as it says, in Daniel as well, and I think what we’re experiencing right now is a narrative that overall is contributing to that one world government. We’ll see how it plays out locally in terms of our nation, but God’s process, God’s plan, God’s program is still in play and he is on his throne as Revelation four says. 13 times in 11 verses, the word throne is mentioned. God’s in control, he’s got this. What we need to do is to rest and let him drive the narrative.
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Did you know you can find the Prophecy Pros on the Edifi Network? That’s right. We’re there now, and we’re getting massive exposure. So cool. It’s E-D-I-F-I, the Edifi Network. Check it out, subscribe and listen with other podcasts as well on that great network.
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Todd: As always, we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for making this possible. We could not do this without them.
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@ -1,179 +0,0 @@
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![[S3E4: Jonathan Evans: Being on the Winning Team.mp3]]
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---
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Todd: Well, hey. Today, you guys are in for a special treat. We have Jonathan Evans in the studio with us. Jonathan Evans is an author, speaker, and a former NFL fullback. He’s a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary with a master’s degree in Christian leadership. He also serves as the chaplain of the Dallas Cowboys and co-chaplain of the Dallas Mavericks. Jonathan is a dynamic speaker at churches, conferences, men’s events, student events, FCA events, you name it. He is committed to developing the next generation of devoted Christian leaders. And that’s why we have him on to talk about the next generation as it appeals to Bible prophecy and eschatology.Jonathan serves with his pastor, friend, and father, Dr. Tony Evans, both in the local church and national ministry. And Jonathan and his wife, Kanika, are the proud parents of five children. And they reside in Dallas, Texas. Jonathan, welcome to the show.
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Jonathan: Hey, good to be here. Thank you for having me.
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Todd: Absolutely.
|
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|
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Jeff: Well, so, Jonathan, you’ve had the opportunity to speak to a lot of different audiences, all different ages, all different ethnic groups, all different backgrounds in everything from sports, to theology, to youth, to Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship. I mean, God’s just really kind of saturating you out there. Tell us just a little bit about some of the key principles that help you as a communicator of biblical truth. I mean, what are some of the things that really kind of inform your direction as a communicator?
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|
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Jonathan: I mean, first of all, when Tony Evans is your dad, it’s kind of cheating because it’s kind of one of those things where you’re able to watch him. It’s like Steph Curry, watching his dad play in the NBA. So, that’s part of it, is that God positions you how he wants to use you. And that’s why you can’t take those things for granted. And as you get older, you look back and you say, “Well, God positioned me in such a way where I could watch one of the most amazing communicators of our generation.” And really, learned so much from him and my mom, just by virtue of dependency on God and really walking with God and allowing him to use you the way that he made you. And so, I give him all the glory for that because no one asks, gets to decide where they get to go. You just kind of get drafted in.
|
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|
||||
Kind of happened to be on the right team from that perspective, but also it was really just getting to the point where I said yes to God, and no to my fears; yes to God, and no to where I feel like my insufficiencies are because public speaking, number one, is one of the biggest fears there is, as far as what people will do. But it had a lot to do with me not allowing fear or my insufficiencies stop me from my purpose. And that’s kind of what fear is. Fear is seeing the purpose, but seeing your insufficiencies in light of that destination. And so, when people see the destination, but then they start looking at themselves, you get stuck. And God, a lot of times, will give you something you can’t handle so that he can show you that only with him can you handle it. And so, that’s where that came from.
|
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|
||||
And then the theology part, I ran away from doing anything that was anything close to what my father was doing. So, growing up, I was like, “I’m not doing that.” I mean, if Michael Jordan’s your dad, you don’t want to play basketball. That’s not going to go over well.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I don’t want to [inaudible]. Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: That’s not going to be a good thing. But it was really learning that in life… I don’t get credit by riding Tony Evans [inaudible] coattail. I started my own journey with my own faith. Ended up going to seminary. And once I said, “Yes,” then that’s when the doors to do what God wanted me to do swang open.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Man, that is so exciting. I remember my first year at Dallas Seminary, you were at Dallas Seminary, your dad was one of my professors there. And my first year there, I went to graduation to see what graduation was going to be like. The speaker was a man by the name of Dr. E.V. Hill. Obviously, you know who he is. And he gave an illustration that just… I mean, just resonated with me all these years later. He was giving a football illustration. He said, “When you’re given the truth, that’s like a fullback being given the football.” And he said, “For God’s sake, don’t fumble the ball.” He said, “That’s the thing you don’t want to do. You don’t want to fumble the truth.”And having been given that legacy from your dad, from the seminary, I think we all get to this point, see if you agree with this, where we just go, “God, you’re my sufficiency. You’re my grip on the ball. I might fumble this thing, but I’ve got to depend upon you.” So, that dependence you were talking about, Jonathan, really does resonate with us and with our listeners because we all need to grip the truth in order to communicate it accurately. Would you agree?
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Dependency is a big thing. It is God’s word. And so, it doesn’t belong to us; it belongs to him. And we’re supposed to be great stewards of it. And you want to really steward God’s word well because you don’t want to tell lies when you know you’re handling the truth. And so, you definitely want to do that. And so, that takes dependency on God. And in life, you learn that growing up is to be independent, but in spiritual, growing up, it’s when you’re more dependent.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. A lot of freedom there too. Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And that’s powerful for a lot of our listeners too because they’re… Jeff and I are trying to reach younger generations and a lot of them… And I can relate to that, in terms of the speaking. I hate public speaking, but God keeps putting me in these roles where I have to do public speaking. Jeff is a natural at it, man. He’ll just go out there and have the whole crowd just… but God just keeps putting me there, and so I could relate to that.And I think it’s pretty cool that you went out on your own and kind of learned life and then… not good that you ran from God, but good that you tried to establish yourself apart from your dad. And then how cool is it that God just honored that, and then brought you right back in to where you could minister with him in just such a natural way, man? That’s really exciting.
|
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|
||||
Jonathan: Yeah. Definitely. God gives you the things that you desire in your heart, but when he gives them to you, you’ll be like, “Oh, I didn’t really know that’s the way I desired it.” Because it’s for his kingdom, and we grow up thinking about our kingdom. And once he’s able to take those same passions, but just shift the kingdom, you end up doing what you were always created to do, but now you’re just doing it the right way. And so, it’s the same passion; it’s the same kid; it’s the same young adult; it’s the same teenager; it’s the same things that you’ve always been excited about, but it just shifts kingdoms. And once he shifts kingdoms, it’s like, “Oh,” the light bulb goes off.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Amen. Anything we thought we were missing, he replaces with something 10 times better. And actually, that leads right into our next question. Talking about being kingdom-minded, serving him. Of course, this is a podcast that’s generally about Bible prophecy and eschatology, so we often talk about the future millennial kingdom and how we serve God now, not trying to get to God, but out of our salvation. And we work for him. And we work hard. And we know that there are rewards in heaven and stuff like that. But salvation is free.And you’ve talked to a lot of students and younger generations. When you talk to them, this is kind of a two-part question, what are some of the barriers that might keep younger generations from studying Bible prophecy and eschatology, even the book of Revelation? Those are topics that are kind of hands-off for a lot of people in our days.
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Well, I mean, they’re not even just hands-off for young people; they’re hands-off for preachers. I mean, it’s one of those topics that’s looked at as “dun, dun, duh,” you know?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: It’s daunting. And because of the daunting nature of when you say the word “prophecy,” that is daunting. And it seems to be over a lot of people’s heads. And so, they decide to stay away from what may not seem easy to attain intellectually, just to understand it.But really, it’s really just getting to the point where you realize that the foundational truth of God’s word, being able to believe that God’s word is the truth, has a foundation undergirding it called prophecy. In other words, once you recognize that how in the world did Isaiah know that there would be one that’s born of a virgin in Isaiah Chapter 7, and then Jesus is born of a virgin 700 years later. So, Jesus didn’t come 700 years later after Isaiah said that. Well, because Isaiah was that precise, it lets you know the Bible must be real because there’s no other way that that could be possible. How would he know, in Isaiah 40, that there would be one that comes that makes the way of the Lord? And he’s talking about John the Baptist. Then in Matthew 3:3, it says John the Baptist has come to make the way of the Lord. So, there’s all of these things that are foreknown because of who God is. And God is so true and so precise that he’s able to foretell you what’s going to happen, then give you examples in his word of what he foretold actually happening. How do we know that there was going to be a baby born in Bethlehem, like Micah 5:2 says? Well, that was 500 years before the baby was born in Bethlehem.
|
||||
|
||||
So, once you realize, if I learn the basics of prophecy and the basics of just foretelling and what was foretold coming true, I can actually use that as a foundational argument of God’s word being true, and not just the things that are true in life that you experience. My dad would often say, “If you want to know God’s word is true, just don’t do it what it says. You’ll find out quick.” So, that’s one way you find out God’s word is true. But Biblical prophecy, using the Bible to prove itself, is how you find out God’s word is true.
|
||||
|
||||
And so, I think just coming to the understanding of, “You know what? Let me see what the Bible foretells that’s come true, just as it relates to Jesus.” You can find that in Isaiah. And you can see the things that are said in Micah. That just is shocking and very biblically truthful, appealing. So, you start there.And then once you get there, you kind of build this appetite for, “This is incredible.” What I believe is true. And it’s undergirded by foretelling and prophecy.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It’s wild. What you just shared is actually my exact testimony. I grew up unchurched. I was an atheist. I thought the Bible was a book of fairytales. Jeff and I have talked about this on the program before. But somebody showed me fulfilled Bible prophecy, and I could not shake it.And then that led me to, “Okay, well, if that’s true, then this other crazy stuff about God creating me must be true. And this other crazy stuff about God splitting the Red Sea.” And then, “Well, hey… ” And then that’s a natural progression into future prophecy. Well, then everything he says about the end times must be true. So, that helps me look at the world differently now, knowing that God is a promise-keeper and all of his prophecies will come true.
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Yeah. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So, the flip side of that is what are some things we can do? I know for older generations, there’s been a lot of sensationalism and date-setting and weird stuff that turns people off. But in terms of younger generations, what are some of the barriers or some of the baggage that they might have? Hopefully, they don’t have as much as the older generations, but what are some of the things that we should be aware of as we try to engage younger audiences and talk to them about Bible prophecy and even eschatology?And one other thing, because part of that is we don’t want to scare them. We don’t want to scare the kids. We don’t want to them keep-
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Right. Right. The sci-fi.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. We don’t want to keep them from planning for their future and dreaming and all the things that God created them to do, but, at the same time, we don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We want to teach them eschatology in a biblical, balanced way. So, what are some ways we could do that?
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Well, it starts with the basics. It starts with not jumping to eschatology, but learning draft, and learning the reason why you’re drafted is to play the game, and to understand that after you play the game the coach always judges the performance. And so, when they just understand that drafted by grace and understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, they understand that now that they have the uniform, this is the way that you’re called to play based on that playbook. And so, now, it’s spiritual growth, spiritual development, that you can’t… If you jump to eschatology before we get Christology, then you’re going to have a problemology, you know?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Well put.
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: So, I think that you got to stick to the basics, first of all, with young people because young people… because, like you said, all the weird stuff going on in the church and people jumping out there, making up stuff and the church not being who the church is supposed to be, has a large percent of millennials and younger running from the church as it is.So, the start is helping them understand that we are the church and here’s how, and going through that process. I use football because I’m a former football player and current chaplain of the Cowboys, so it’s easy for me to relate to it. But it always starts with drafted by his grace, and then understanding to play based on the uniform and the playbook that we’ve been given.
|
||||
|
||||
When we understand that, then we can have conversations on what life is really about. Seek ye first his kingdom, and then these things will be added to you; that if you play for his kingdom, the things that will be added to you, none of those things judge you. Only the king of the kingdom does.And so, then you move into judgment, which comes into the realm of eschatology and end times and the judgment seat of Christ. And eternity and millennial kingdom and all of those different things come when the player simply learns that, based on my draft and my uniform and this playbook, this is how I need to play because I’m grateful that I was drafted to begin with.
|
||||
|
||||
And then you move. You move to the end of the game, when they get in the game.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It’s a natural progression. That’s genius, man. Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. And I’m sure you find out as you go along, “Hey, there’s a part of this playbook I’ve never read before,” you know?
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It’s called Revelation, you know?
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Yeah. That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It’s like, “This is actually pretty cool stuff. It’s just like the flea flicker, man. This is the post pattern here.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Yeah. It tells you how to finish.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: It tells you how to finish.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And that’s true. I mean, it’s kind of like we get to read about the end-zone dance in heaven. We get that. But to get there, you got to get first downs. To get there, we’ve got grind and we got to get on down the field. And sometimes that’s bloody. Sometimes that’s messy. Sometimes that’s not fun, as a Christian. And there are hard truths that God introduces to us and we go, “Oh, gosh, I didn’t realize that things were so serious at times.” But, at the same time, God gives us the joy of walking with him and experiencing his abundant life. And, as Jesus said in Matthew 28, he said, “I’m with you until the end- “
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: End [crosstalk].
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: ” … of the age.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Isn’t that a great comfort?
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Yes, sir.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: So, yeah. And I think that’s one of the things, Jonathan, that… Tell me what you think about this. Young people today and Gen Z and millennials out there today, they’re seeing the same thing that’s happening in the world that we’re seeing. I mean, everybody’s experiencing it. I don’t think any longer is it just kind of the prophecy crowd or even the Christian crowd that’s saying, “Wow, times are really weird. Something really big could happen at any moment.” And here’s a tiny, invisible virus that shut down the whole planet.
|
||||
|
||||
So, tell us what you’re seeing in these generations, as you’re talking to them. What’s the spirit that you see coming from them? Is it fear? Is it confusion? Is it apathy? Is there a lot of seeking going on, asking questions? What are you getting from these generations right now?Jonathan: Man, it’s different. It’s different from different generations because in my kids, they see, unfortunately, normality. They see normalcy because they’re young. So, the way the times are for them are the way they’ve been. Some of the things they see on the news… they’ll watch the news with us, and so they ask a lot of questions. We explain a lot of things.
|
||||
|
||||
I’m the oldest of the millennial group. When you talk about the millennial group, well, we’ve seen phases. And so, I’ve asked my dad, “Is this the worst it’s ever been?” I wanted to make sure. This seems like a crazy time. He says, “It’s so much different because it’s global.” We’ve had our United States problems. We’ve had civil rights. We’ve had all those things. But now, you have this global issue with the coronavirus, with the financial structure, with… There’s so many things that are going on global.
|
||||
|
||||
And then you’re able to explain what the Bible says in Matthew 24, “Nation will rise up against nation. Kingdom against kingdom. You’ll see earthquakes and famines.” I mean, all of those different things you’re seeing from a global perspective, not just from a United States perspective. And the Bible was written for the globe; it wasn’t just written for the United States. And so, when you see it that way, you’re able to communicate God’s word back to those fears and back to those concerns and even to what may be normal for some because that’s all they know.
|
||||
|
||||
And when I say “normal,” I mean normal in the sense of that’s what they’re seeing for years and years, but abnormal in the sense of made in the image of God, so they know it’s wrong. So, it’s just different for different generations, but we still have to be able to communicate the one truth.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. To be able to answer those fears, answer that apathy, clear up that confusion, give clarity where there’s fog. We talk to a lot of people. And a lot of people invite… send their questions, rather, to us, and we invite those questions. But a lot of people are just… even in the church, Jonathan, they’ve never been taught about how to discern the times, how to really face really challenging times. My dad’s generation faced things I didn’t face. And now, I’m facing things my kids are not even going to face.
|
||||
|
||||
So, I mean, there’s so many different variations in generations, like you said, but it all comes down to being rooted and grounded in the word, like you said, and just knowing what God says. And that brings that peace. That peace just comes over us to be able to handle the storm. And sometimes he calms the storm; sometimes he calms us. But either way, we get the calm.
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think the reason why knowing biblical prophecy and understanding where this thing is headed is for the reason you just gave, is to understand that, “Oh, I can have peace in the middle of the storm,” which is what Philippians says in Chapter 4, peace that surpasses understanding because I don’t understand why I have peace. That’s why it’s God’s peace.
|
||||
|
||||
But it’s like watching NFL Replay. When I watch NFL Replay, it’s a replay. So, I already know who’s going to win the game. So, when I see fumbles and interceptions, it doesn’t matter because I know where this thing is going. And so, what biblical prophecy does is basically puts you on replay. So, all you’re seeing is what you already know. And you already know that Jesus is going to win. You’re on the winning team. So, there’s no reason to be afraid, even though fearful things are happening because you just know where this thing is going.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Amen. A lot of comfort.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. Jeff and I, we have recorded a couple of podcasts about people’s reaction to what’s going on right now. And we’re kind of seeing two extremes. Either people are kind of freaking out and going to the extreme and buying food and ammo and hunkering down and saying, “The Lord’s returning tomorrow.” And then the other swing of the pendulum is just complete apathy like, “No, this is just cyclical.” So, how do we balance that out?
|
||||
|
||||
Scripture gives us some things and lets us know we are kind of in the fourth quarter. We’re late. We’re deep. If it was the end times when Paul was speaking, we’re deep in the end times now. But what Jeff and I have been talking a lot about is really, now is time for us to live like the first-century church, where we just live with expectancy, but also hope and joy, regardless of what’s going on around us.
|
||||
|
||||
And you and your dad, I’ve heard both of you use the analogy of any type of division in our country or the world, where you got two teams against each other, but we should be like the referees, where we live according to a different playbook. How can the church rise to the occasion now, shine a light, whether it’s racial stuff, whether it’s division within the church? How can we unite and show the world what the church is supposed to be?
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: You said it when you talked about being the light, the salt of the earth, the light of the world. I mean, light is needed in darkness, and salt is needed when there’s a decay. And so, that’s exactly what’s happening right now, where the church is supposed to be leading, but we’ve joined teams on the field. My dad’s illustration about we’re supposed to be the referees that govern the game; we’re not supposed to be joining teams on the field. We listen to crowds boo, and so we jump to the cheering side. We listen to the crowds cheer, and then we jump to… when we’re supposed to be… I mean, we’re jumping around, when we’re supposed to be operating from one book governing the entire game. And so, the church… all authority has been given to him. And we’re his people. And that means that we’re supposed to be operating in that authority, but we’re not because we’re allowing what’s happening on the field to distract us from our authority position.
|
||||
|
||||
And so, that’s why we’re more focused on being Democrats and Republicans. That’s why we’re more focused on the human trinity instead of the spiritual one: me, myself, and I. We’re trying to make sure we’re okay, when we talk about hunkering down and all those different things. And I’m not saying don’t be responsible; it’s somewhere in the middle. You want to be responsible with what you have.
|
||||
|
||||
But we have to be, as the church, responsible with God’s word because if the earth is decaying, it’s the fault of the salt. If meat decays in Bible times, it’s because it didn’t have salt on. So, we’re, as the church, shaking our head at the culture, but God is looking at us saying, “I worked through you to the culture.” So, if the culture’s decaying, it’s the fault of the salt.
|
||||
|
||||
And the salt too long has gotten comfortable in the shaker. And the purpose of salt is to leave the shaker. And so, what God has done is shaken us out of the shaker. And now, we’re kind of running around like chickens with our heads cut off, trying to figure out how to go back in the shaker. We’re spending all of our time trying to figure out, “Well, how do we… ” And it’s not about forsaking the assembling of the saints. That’s important. But really, go ye therefore and make disciples is a decentralized opportunity with a centralized truth. And so, we’re in a position now, where we can do that if we get our minds off of the distractions and what’s going on in the field, and focus in on the authority that we’ve already been given.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. It’s kind of like Satan is that defensive lineman that’s just trying to get the offensive line to jump offsides at all times. Any kind of distraction. Any kind of smack counts-
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Hard counts.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Hard counts, smack talk, whatever it takes, man. Just lining it up, just trying to get the other guy to trip up. And that really is kind of emblematic, I think, of Satan’s end times strategy. I mean, he wants to distract the bride away from her wedding day, away from the things that really matter.So, with that in mind… So, just speak for a moment, Jonathan, into this topic of just, what are some of the keys for Christians to be devoted, rather than distracted? How can we focus in and simplify and give that centralized devotion to Jesus in the midst of times, where we’re being bombarded with so many different distracting messages politically, racially, personally, gender? There’s so many things going on in our world. How do we keep our focus, brother?
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: I know. It’s like my son, Kamden. He went to school one day. And I told them how to be obedient. And he came out of class. And the teacher told me he wasn’t obedient. And I said, “Kamden, what happened?” And then he turned and looked at me and he said, “I don’t know. All I know is Jeremiah said… ” And once he said that, I stopped him because I said, “Jeremiah said? Who’s Jeremiah?” And then he pointed to some other four-year-old in the classroom. And I said, “You let another four-year-old distract you from what your father said. Now, you got to deal with your father. So, the thing that you need to be doing… ” and you need to make this an episode, Todd, [inaudible].
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: “But the thing that you need to be doing, Kamden, is being focused on my word because Jeremiah has no say on how you’re judged in my home.”And so, what happens is, is we do what kids do. We go out into the world and there’s all these messages, there’s all this news, there’s all these Facebook posts. And the enemy is so crafty because he brought a different message to Adam and Eve. He skewed the word. And when he skewed the word, it turned the whole earth upside down. And so, the church has been turned upside down by a skewed word that has come in many directions, but from one source, the enemy, so that we’re not focused on what the father has said.
|
||||
|
||||
The father has spoken. He has not stuttered. His word has not changed. It’s been thousands of years. It will always stay the same for every generation because he’s the same today, yesterday, and forevermore. And so, it’s making sure that we don’t leave this life, going to the judgment seat of Christ saying, “Well, they said,” or, “Jeremiah said,” or, “The news said,” or, “Facebook said,” or, “Twitter said.” That is going to be irrelevant to the father. He’s going to say, like every father says to their kid, “Yeah. But what did I say?”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: What did I say? Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: And that’s the only thing that you’re going to have to deal with. And so, focusing is just realizing, “Okay, I’ve been distracted too long. We’ve been distracted too long, as the church. What did the father say? And let’s do that as an individual. Let’s do that with our families. Let’s do that as every local church, so that we can permeate it into our communities.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s so true.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I love that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And getting into that word just only enhances our relationship with our father. And we know our father better. We trust our father more. We’re able to run to our father for things or for problems.And that’s where a lot of Christians are today. I mean, we all face this. We all struggle with this. But it boils down to that relationship factor. I mean, being able to relate to God based upon his word, what he said in his word.
|
||||
|
||||
And when we accept that and just say, “You know what? I trust him. I think he’s got the best deal for me,” then we can kind of relax and let him fight our battles for us and let God talk to Jeremiah instead of us having to deal with Jeremiah all the time, you know?
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: That’s right. That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: It’s like, “My father said, so that’s the way it’s going to be.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: That’s right. That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Man, well, Jonathan, we could literally do this all day, but we got to land the plane here. But before we do, are there any books or initiatives or ministry projects or anything you want to bring to light or let our listeners know about? And also let them know where to find out more about you and your ministry and what you do.
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Yeah. So, one of the things that we have now just started at TUA is a “Different” series for youth. And so, I did it with RightNow Media. So, on RightNow Media, there is a video series called “Different.” And The Urban Alternative has a booklet that you can go through with your youth at home or with youth ministries. So, it’s good to engage them in their identity, the reason why they’re supposed to be different, and the reason why they’re supposed to be listening to God instead of others.
|
||||
|
||||
The next thing that’s coming out in June, in the future, is my first solo book, which is Your Time is Now: Getting What God has Given You. And so, it’s going to be an awesome opportunity.You can find out more about me on jonathanblakeevans.com. And also, on YouTube and social media, Jonathan Blake Evans.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Fantastic. Jonathan, thank you so much, brother, for joining us. It’s great to meet you and to be able to fellowship around the word of God and the things that really matter in life. We pray God’s greatest blessings on you, your ministry, your family, your marriage, and all that God leads you to do in the future.
|
||||
|
||||
Jonathan: Awesome. Thank you, man.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Did you know you could find the Prophecy Pros on the Edifi Network? That’s right. We’re there now, and we’re getting massive exposure. So cool. It’s E-D-I-F-I. The Edifi Network. Check it out. Subscribe. And listen with other podcasts as well on that great network. And as always, we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for making this possible. We could not do this without them.
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,83 +0,0 @@
|
||||
|
||||
![[S3E5: Globalism and the Great Reset.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: The world is changing. We’re becoming more and more one. It’s shrinking, actually, Todd, and we’re going to talk about today what is this thing called globalism? And more importantly, what is this great reset that the whole world is now talking about? All right, Todd, globalism and the great reset here. This is a one of these buzz words that we’ve heard. We hear globalism in the church, we hear great reset in the world. We’re kind of getting this coming from both ends here. Is this something that we should be concerned about? Is this this new world order that people have been talking about for decades? Is it finally here?First, let’s just kind of begin by defining some of our terms and then we’ll get into the scriptures and also into the world and find out what’s going on there. But how would you describe to someone what the great reset is, and also globalism?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I mean, globalism, both of those are terms that most of our listeners, well, our listeners might be familiar with, but most people in general are not really familiar with those, or they might just think it’s just the fact that countries are globally connected and that kind of thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Globalism is just that, that we live in a global economy, like what happens in America affects other countries and trade agreements and stocks and bonds and all that stuff rises and falls based on interconnection of countries now because of we’re able to fly everywhere and it really is easy to get to the other side of the world, so to speak, that there’s more and more interplay between countries. Then defining that even further to show contrast. You have nationalism versus globalism. Nationalism is, hey, we’re going to protect our country. We’re going to protect our assets. We’re going to protect our lifestyle, so to speak, and we’re going to kind of look at ourselves as a standalone entity, kind of like a company would like, I need to make sure that my company or my household is being run well and is protected and is thriving and that kind of thing versus no, we need to all work together and make sure everything’s completely connected globally and everything’s fair and all this kind of stuff.
|
||||
|
||||
Biblically speaking, God is a nationalist, so to speak. He set up the nations. He knows that sin is a real thing, that mankind has fallen and that we need checks and balances and if one country acts crazy like World War II, Germany, there’s enough other countries that’ll push against that.But secular humanism has kind of come up with this idea that they don’t see us in nature. They think if we just have the perfect utopia that we’re all interconnected and working together, then the world will be as one. It’s kind of a godless view of utopia, but really what they don’t realize is that will bring the most horrific things on earth that we’ve ever seen.Then the great reset is a specific event that the world economic forum has for this coming June. They’ve been talking about it since 2014. There’s some videos that I personally watched where he was saying we need a great reset and we’re just waiting for kind of a good crisis to happen where we can leverage it and push the reset button. Well, fast forward to 2020, and you have the coronavirus and however that got started and proliferated, they are using that as the excuse for this economic reset and we’ll unpack that as time goes on. But it is a real thing. It’s globalism and the one world government that they’re trying to push basically, is something that used to kind of be in the shadows, used to be considered conspiracy theory and only crazy Christians who believed Revelation thought there would be a world government or a push for it. But we’re seeing that out in the open, people literally calling for it and pushing for it like never before.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. This term great reset is something that is not in the Bible, but is something that is in the worlds in culture, as you mentioned, has been talked about for several years now, former leaders from Great Britain, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, have both said call for this. Very interesting with the things that they’ve said there, they said, “We also need one leader to lead us in this great reset,” which is obviously tipping the hand to the biblical description of the antichrist there.
|
||||
|
||||
But part of the restructuring of this great reset, I mean, think about what is a reset button when you’re a garbage disposal goes out, you just press that reset button, it starts up again. It’s all new again. That’s kind of what they’re talking about, Todd, is that they want to restructure society and economies. Part of kind of the requirements to do that is that we all have to be connected in a way that we weren’t connected before. We’ll all have to be on board about economic issues, about climate change issues. We all have to be supportive of sort of the same things. Like you mentioned, we lose our nationalistic identity and we just become global citizens.This is what the world wants right now. They think that’s the only way we can survive. From a secular standpoint, it sort of makes sense in that we’ve seen in Europe right now when certain countries have defaulted economically, the ripple effects have been just unreal in their immediate community, in their global community there. It’s almost like when mountain climbers are climbing a mountain, if one climber falls, it tugs on the rope of all the other climbers. That’s what’s happening. What happens is other countries have to come in and bail out many times these countries who have defaulted economically.
|
||||
|
||||
There’s sort of a practical element involved in that. It’s like, hey, if we all have the same currency, all the same thing, then we’re there for each other. And, oh, isn’t that a Christian value to be there for each other and to take care of each other?This whole great reset thing, but it’s not just economically, it’s moving from capitalism really to socialism is really one of the big pushes of the global reset because government becomes not just like, think about socialist countries right now, have the government rules everything, this would be a one world government that would rule all of the world. Of course that ties in exactly to what the Bible says is going to happen.
|
||||
|
||||
Now, keep in mind that Satan, because he’s read the Bible and he knows what he gets to do in the end times, he doesn’t know though when he gets to do that.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: In other words, he doesn’t have that God’s prophetic calendar hasn’t been revealed to him in terms of the timing. Many times I think Satan has tried to jumpstart the end times, by either putting forth a godless ruler, like an Adolf Hitler, or doing some of the things that are going on right now in the world that are in concert with what the Bible says is going to happen. Satan is kind of like, he throws that spaghetti on the wall too, and just sees what’ll stick at different times.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: But I think this is something that we do see the Bible says eventually is going to happen. Like you said, it requires a crisis. It requires a spirit of the age where people say, “Well, my goodness, we’re not going to survive unless we do this.” So this whole idea of globalists push of a global reset, great reset, is something that I think secular minds are seeing need to happen right now. In the coronavirus, all this happened with COVID-19 really is the perfect storm for them.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: You unpacked it perfectly with taking God and the Bible out of the picture, to them it makes sense. There are literally, and especially the younger generations, and that’s one thing specifically that the world economic forum is targeting with this global reset is they’re having these events before that all over the world specifically meeting with young leaders, millennial and below, who kind of are bent towards that socialistic mindset. There’s literally a video they have out that says in 10 years you will own nothing, but you will be happy. It’s got this guy smiling all big. Everyone will have the same income. It really is socialism. In their mind, that’s a good thing. But just looking at the track record, everywhere socialism has gone, it’s been a complete disaster and evil men take over. Like you said, Satan doesn’t know the exact time of the rapture or the end time events, but he watches the signs and the conditions just like we do.
|
||||
|
||||
It’s interesting that right now we see with all this other stuff going on, we see that globalist mindset coming out out in the open and more and more people buying into it. The big question is, and this is kind of where I think it’ll hit our listeners who have heard about the great reset and maybe been a little fearful, because that it originally was set for right now in January when we’re recording this podcast but they pushed it to June I think waiting to see what was going to happen with elections and all that kind of stuff.
|
||||
|
||||
But anyway, a long story short, a lot of believers are like, “Oh, they’re going to force this on us 100%. There’s nothing we can do.” But the big question is second Thessalonians two with the restrainer, we’re still salt and light. The Holy Spirit and Dwelt Church is still here and scripture is very clear in second Thessalonians that until the restrainer is taken out of here, that tide of evil, that globalism will not fully take over. But it’s interesting that we’re seeing that tidal wave coming at us now, and we’re still here. That lets us know, I mean, things could be close to the Lord’s return, but also on a bigger, more practical, immediate way, don’t fear the great reset, because we’re still here. We’re still the church. We’re still restraining evil. We may have to withhold the tide a little bit and things might get crazy. Only time will tell, but that’s kind of where we are right now.
|
||||
|
||||
Hey, thanks so much for tuning in today and listening to this episode of the Prophecy Pros podcast. We know that when we study Bible prophecy or talk about it, one answered question might lead to other questions you have. We have a special place set up on the website where you can go and ask Jeff and I a question. Just go to prophecyprospodcast.com. There you can also learn more about our books, where to find them and other resources. We thank you so much for tuning in, be sure to share this, subscribe, like, and anything else you can do to let your friends and family know about the Prophecy Pros podcast.Jeff: Part of the marketing campaign of the great reset, of really globalism, is that capitalism is greed. Free speech is dangerous. You don’t want free speech because that’s dangerous. We’ll tell you what you’re supposed to say.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: You’re not smart enough to be able to come to your own conclusions.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: You need the bad big brother to tell you how to do that. But it really is very Orwellian in that when George Orwell wrote 1984 back in post World War II, he was drawing upon some of these communist regimes that he had known about specifically in Russia. But one of the things I have in this thing is what’s called doublespeak that Orwell talks about where they talk about freedom is slavery and that kind of thing. It’s like, wait a minute. I thought freedom was good. No, no freedom is now slavery.
|
||||
|
||||
You don’t want freedom. Definitely don’t want that. But it’s all a part of this deception. One of the principles of Bible prophecy that God has really revealed to all of us is that we can look forward in the Bible and see what’s going to happen and then see precursors to that as we talked about in the past, these sort of birth pangs. One of the things that he does talk about in second Thessalonians chapter two is about the antichrist and his incredible satanic ministry of deception.
|
||||
|
||||
In fact, it says in verse nine, it says the one, it’s talking about the antichrist who is coming in accord with the activity of Satan. Notice what it says, “With all powers and signs and false wonders.” The words that he uses there and also the signs and wonders, the Greek words he uses in Revelation are the exact words that he uses to describe the miracles of Jesus as well.
|
||||
|
||||
Whether or not these are parotid illusions or whether they’re actual supernatural miracles, regardless of that, people are convinced. He goes on to say, Todd, “And with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved, and for this reason God will send upon them a diluting influence so that they might believe what is false in order that they may all be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”
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Now it’s talking about the future. It’s talking about the tribulation period there. However, Satan, because this is one of his satanic methods, is in the process of grooming and preparing the world for that time right now. It’s almost like if you look at it, it’s like what’s going on right now is almost like the playoffs, but it’s not the championship game. But it’s leading up to something. It’s leading to a time. It’s a precursor. It’s a fore shock. I talk about that in my new book Aftershocks, which tells us what’s going to happen with Christians entering an age of global crisis. How are we to navigate some of these things that are happening now and what’s going to happen in the future because of that?Well, guess what? That’s what we’re experiencing now, Todd. When we talk about globalism, we talk about the great reset, it’s one of these things that I believe Satan is in charge of. It’s really a false presentation of, like you said, a utopian type society where everybody’s going to get along and that kind of thing. But in reality, it’s doing everything that is opposed to what scripture says should be happening to individuals.
|
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|
||||
Todd: It’s wild, with our podcast and our books, how we didn’t even know when we were planning the topics or whatever, how God was going to have those perfectly timed. Your book, Aftershocks, which is basically talking about the aftershocks of everything in 2020, is coming out at the perfect time when all this other stuff’s hitting. That’s going to be a great resource for folks. I like it because kind of what you said, prophecy doesn’t happen in a vacuum. When we read about the events of the last days, whether in second Thessalonians or in Revelation, it’s not like that just happens suddenly. We can see it ramp up to it, just like with the first coming. It says he came in the fullness of time, when the Roman roads were there and the people were ready for it, same thing. The world mindset right now is ready for the rise of the antichrist. Actually I’ll plug another one of your books is the interview with the Antichrist unpacks that beautifully, how that happens, how it could play out.
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Jeff: Well, and thank you for that. I mean, again, the resources that we write are for you, the listener, and for you to deepen your faith in Jesus and become stronger and more knowledgeable. But here’s a question, Todd, and you kind of brought this up, alluded to this, is that why is this happening sort of right now? Again, part of it is because Satan is trying to float out different ideas and he’s trying to, again, jumpstart the end times.
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But here’s a very interesting point. In second Thessalonians, which you mentioned earlier, you talked about the restrainer is what prevents the antichrist from being revealed right now. Some people think they’ve identified the Antichrist. Guess what? You have not identified the Antichrist because you can’t know until the restrainers removed. You and I both believe that one of the theories of the interpretation is that this restrainer refers to the Holy Spirit in the church, and that when the church is removed from the world, then it’s like the flood gates are gone and now this tsunami of evil is going to flood the world.Well we believe that refers to the rapture. When the rapture takes place, then all of this restraining influence of holding back evil, and think about this, Todd, how evil the world is right now, how Satan is making headway and making ground. But when the church is removed, all of that is going to be, gloves are coming off when that happens. We’re not there now, but we certainly are in a ramping up stage to that. Yes, we should be very concerned about globalism, very concerned about this great reset, because it does impact our lives in the way that we can live right now.
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Todd: Interestingly, and this isn’t so much a pro-America thing as it is just a fact. I mean, Europe is already to go global. I mean, they love globalism. They’re very secular. America really is the last country that’s kind of holding the line on globalism in a powerful way and Judeo-Christian values. As we talked about in the last episode, that’s kind of going away at the same time that this rise of globalism and the great reset is happening. Just like you said, Satan knows when to make his moves. It’s like a giant chess game. But the interesting thing is that the masses by and large are ready to accept this, and how much more so when the rapture occurs, when there’s world chaos and any countries, I mean, look at our national debt right now. I’m saying a bunch of scary stuff, but I promise we’ll end hopeful. You look at our national debt right now, it’s not sustainable. Could you imagine if the rapture were to happen today, it would be immediate economic collapse, which is exactly what the globalists are already wanting so that they can do a great reset.Then you have other things like cashless money systems already in place. I mean, it really is mind blowing when you look at how many things are lining up with the exact conditions that are needed for the end times. Sometimes we feel a little funny when we say that, but when we study scripture and look at what’s happening in real time, we see those two things lining up and converging like no other time in history.
|
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|
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Jeff: They really are. For Christians, for believers, we have to be discerning. We have to be insightful. Again, that doesn’t come from a podcast. That comes from being in the scripture because the things we’re sharing with you, the principles that we want you to dive into and to assimilate in your heart, come from the Bible. We want you to do your own study. We want you to get into the word. Don’t just simply accept what someone like myself or Todd says, or what we write about in a book. You do your own research, you check and see what the scripture says, because we want the Holy spirit to lead you specifically in this thing.As this thing begins to continue to develop, Todd, Christians, we’re not just to sit there and just to roll over and play dead. Sometimes we’re going to have to fight. Sometimes we’re going to have to speak out. There is a time to speak out publicly against evil, against injustice, but there’s also a time to quietly work behind the scenes and that type of thing. But just to know that when the world talks about this better world that’s coming, we know that a better world actually is coming in the end times.
|
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|
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Jesus Christ is going to establish his millennial kingdom after the seven year period of tribulation where he’s going to rule with graciousness, rule the nations with a rod of iron, the Bible says, and he’s going to establish righteousness and peace upon the earth. There’s going to be, I talk about reset. He’s going to reset, but he’s going to set them right, is really what he’s going to do.
|
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We don’t have to fear this globalism, but we should know about it. We should know how it is making inroads and being intrusive into our lives, and just to know that only thing keeping it from just going full on is the presence of believers in the world today.
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Todd: That’s right.
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Jeff: As I’ve told Christians before, you are making a difference simply by being here. Todd, this is another reason why we have to get back to church because online church does make a difference, but we have to come back to be strengthened together, to come together in the huddle to get the play. Then we scatter into the world. Again, we got to get out of our houses into the world to really impact people. That’s more than just asking the gal at the Home Depot are you having a good day? I mean, that becomes more than just being nice to the person at the drive-through.We’ve got to be into people’s lives in such a way that we are impacting them relationally. That implies that we have to know people and get into their lives a little bit and become friends with them. Christians just can’t stand back and lob gospel grenades over their doorway into the world. We’ve got to make sure that we’re in people’s lives in such a way that really has a positive, spiritual influence for the sake of the gospel of Jesus.
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Todd: That’s well put. I mean, within our own spirit and influence, we can kind of create our little godly kingdom to where they can see firsthand what the future kingdom will be like. As you were saying all that, I was just thinking about how Satan is a master counterfeiter. He tries to counterfeit everything that God does. In Revelation we read about a fake or a mimic to resurrection. We see kind of a counterfeit Trinity with Satan, the Antichrist and the false prophet kind of mimicking God, the father, son, and Holy Spirit.
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Then of course, with globalism, the push we’re seeing now, and what eventually does happen in the book of Revelation is we’re seeing a counterfeit kingdom. We always say we’re going to end on a high note. The high note is, just like Jeff said, even though they’re pushing for a great reset, eventually Jesus is going to do a great set right, where he’s going to set everything right. We will as believers live in 1,000 year reign with Christ in it with a perfect government. There’s reasons for that. That falls after the tribulation period. But in that time period, we get to rule and reign with Christ. We get to serve him. We get to see what a perfect paradise really looks like.Then it gets even better. After that he creates a new heaven and a new earth, and then we’re with him in eternity forever. For the believer, it just gets better and better and better. Let’s put our hope and our trust and our kind of set our minds on those things, rather than the scariness of the great reset. Let’s just be salt and light in any way that we can and push back against that any way we can in a biblical fashion and know that God is in control. He he’s got us right where he wants us.
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Jeff: We were made for this time, Todd. Every person listening to this podcast was born for this moment and because God could’ve had you born any other time of the world.
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Todd: That’s right.
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Jeff: He chose right now, which means that you have an important strategic role in the kingdom and helping people know who God is.
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Todd: Amen. Generations of believers have wanted to see the things we’re seeing. We kind of get a front row seat to Bible prophecy being fulfilled. That can only be hopeful because we know Jesus wins and we win with him.
|
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|
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Jeff: Amen. Did you know you can find the Prophecy Pros on the Edifi network? That’s right. We’re there now and we’re getting massive exposure. So cool. It’s E-D-I-F-I, the Edifi network. Check it out, subscribe and listen with other podcasts as well on that great network.
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Todd: As always, we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for making this possible. We could not do this without them.
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![[S3E6: Olivier Melnick: The Church and the Chosen People.mp3]]
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Jeff: Hey, today we’re welcoming back a guest we had on a podcast previously, our good friend Olivier Melnick. You do not want to miss today. Olivier serves as a northwest regional director of Chosen People Ministries. He also serves on the board of directors for Chosen People France. He’s an author and a speaker and a personal friend of ours. He’s an expert on the topic of antisemitism and Bible prophecy, and how those two intersect. He was in season two, go check that out if you guys haven’t heard it yet. We wanted to have him back today, because we kind of left you with a cliffhanger. We talked about end times antisemitism. But we started talking about how do we as believers witness to Jewish people, but we wanted to give that the respect it deserved and the time that it needed, so that’s what we’re going to talk about today. Olivier, welcome once again to the Prophecy Pros podcast.
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Olivier: Well Todd, thank you, Todd and Jeff. Thank you for having me back, and I remember the last question that Jeff asked me, said, “Olivier, what advice can you give us in the last minute that we have on how to share the gospel with the Jewish people?” And I said, “The best advice I can give you is to have me back, to give me the time to explain.”
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Todd: Yeah, there’s no elevator pitch for that answer, right?
|
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|
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Jeff: That’s right. So the big question is, what zinger is going to Olivier throw at us at the end of today’s podcast, to come back on for another season?
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Olivier: Oh, you got me figured out already.
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Todd: Yeah. We’re on to you. We’re on to you.
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Jeff: Yeah, no but seriously man, we love the fact that you would join us again, and we love this topic, and we want to talk about it, so-
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Olivier: Thank you, Thank you. It’s a blessing.
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Jeff: Appreciate what you do. Honestly, we’ve both learned a lot from you, seeing you at conferences and reading your book that we talked about last time. And feel free to highlight that again. And at the end we’ll share where people can find out more, but it’s an amazing work, and what you do is … you have an amazing ministry, a much-needed ministry, and a unique perspective from where you sit. So this is a great topic, and we’re excited you’re here with us today.
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Olivier: And like I said last time, I think I definitely did not wake up one day and said, “I think I’m going to study and teach about antisemitism, because that sounds like a fun thing to do.”
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Jeff: Right, right.
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Olivier: It landed on my lap in 1999, and I’m just doing the best I can to educate people about it. But today we want to talk about something else.
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Jeff: Yeah, so today we’re really talking more about specifically how do we witness to Jewish peoples. We know that, and we’ll talk about this in a little bit, that Romans 9, 10, 11 talk about one day all Jewish people will be saved. We all need to individually accept Christ as savior, but what you really kind of brought to our attention the last time was that there’s different … not all Jewish people are the same. That you got secular Jews, you have atheists, you have orthodox Jews, you have all these different segments, so we’ll get into all that. But a lot of people claim that we should kind of leave Jewish people alone, since they’ve been the victims of so much persecution by Christians, and honestly that’s something a lot of believers don’t realize, that at the hands of Christians, many Jewish people have been persecuted. Even beloved church leaders like Martin Luther, who started the Reformation, he was antisemitic, and did some horrible things that we don’t talk about. But we try to talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly and tell the honest truth about what’s going on and how Christians have been deceived over the years, in being antisemitic. So what do you say about that, about that we shouldn’t leave Jewish people alone, that we should try to evangelize Jewish people because we love them?
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Olivier: I think it’s kind of a reaction that Christians have had for the last few decades, that so much has been done against the Jews in the name of Christianity that we should leave them alone. And if you look at … I document some of that in one of my books, End-Times Antisemitism. I give the history of antisemitism, and at the end you go like, “I don’t even know what I can say to a Jewish person about Christianity,” because we have such a dark stain. And when I look at the Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20, it doesn’t say, go and make disciples of all nations except the Jewish people. It doesn’t say that. So the mandate is to make disciples of all nations, including Israel. And actually, if you go to Romans 1:16, there is actually that verse that says that “to the Jew first,” so not only we have an obligation to take the gospel to the Jewish people, but we have an obligation to make it a priority.
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And a lot of people are scared of bothering the Jewish people, because of that so much has been done against them, and I think also there’s a certain fear. There’s … people are shy. They’re shying away because they fear that they’re not going to know how to approach a Jewish person because, well, that person must know Hebrew, they must know the Old Testament, they must know all the prophets, and it couldn’t be further from the truth.
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As a Jewish man, grew up in France, in an agnostic family, I did not know the difference between Hanukkah and Isaiah. You get the point. One is a holiday, the other one is a prophet. I was like, “I don’t know.” And so it’s not until I discovered my Messiah and accepted him, and started studying the Scriptures, that I really started to understand, and understood the beauty of being a Jewish man who put his trust in a Jewish Messiah. Christians are very scared of witnessing to Jewish people. And some, honestly, some truly believe that we shouldn’t, because of what you just said, that verse in Romans 11, 25 or 26, when it says one day all Israel will be saved. So I’ve had gentile Christians come to me in churches when I spoke, all the time when I open the Q and As, they say, “Well why are we really bothering the Jewish people, since one day all Israel will be saved?” And I said, “Well first of all, if that was really true, that all Jews of all time would be saved, then what am I doing talking to you, trying to convince you that we should do evangelism to the Jewish people?” But you have to put that in a context of eschatology, of when is that going to happen. I think all of us are on the same page, that I’m premillennial, pre-trib. Like our good friend Arnold Fruchtenbaum says, “I don’t even eat Post cereal.”
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Todd: That’s awesome. I love it.
|
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Olivier: So in that context, we look at the time where all Israel will be saved, which I believe will be at the end of the seven year tribulation, you connect that to Zechariah 12:10, when all Israel will look up and say [Hebrew], “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.” And that’s actually what’s triggering the second coming of Messiah. A lot of people don’t realize that. They go like, “Well, when all people, the number of gentiles that have been saved,” and that’s included in that, but what triggers the return, not the Rapture, the return of Messiah, is Israel calling upon him, which is crazy to think about it. And so why do you think Satan is trying to stop that, because he knows it’s over for him. So, but all Israel will be saved will not include anybody who would have died prior without Messiah, unfortunately. So that is why we have this Biblical mandate to take the gospel to Jewish people, because they need … everybody comes to God through the sacrifice that Yeshua made, Yeshua is Jesus’ name in Hebrew, that Yeshua made on the cross for you and for I, Jew and gentile. There’s no difference.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: There’s a difference in how you present it, but there’s no difference in what you have to accept to become a believer.
|
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|
||||
Todd: You know, Olivier, one of the points you just made was very interesting. Because if you think about in Revelation 12, the Bible says that the devil comes down after trying to do another coup on heaven, he’s defeated, it says he comes down having great wrath because he knows his time is short. So now he only has three-and-a-half years left. And the immediate next verses talk about an intense persecution on the Jewish people, in fact three different kinds of attacks on the Jewish people in the second half of the tribulation. What’s interesting to me is that what you just said is that the Jews are going to call upon their Messiah to come deliver them. Satan knows if he can wipe out the Jews, theoretically speaking, there’ll be no Jew to call upon the Messiah, thus Jesus can’t come back, and he can continue his reign on the earth-
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: That’s his plan.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: … and be worshiped and that type of thing.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: So we’re onto his game for that. And that’s one of the reasons why we’re having this conversation. So other than historically speaking, and just historic persecution, because as you said there’s some secular Jews that that probably aren’t as historically clued in to some of the past persecutions that the Christian church has had against the Jewish people, but just from a spiritual perspective, what you know about just the demographics, both culturally and spiritually about the Jewish people, why do you think many Jews are gospel resistant?
|
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|
||||
Olivier: Well, I think, even though I was absolutely not religious whatsoever when I was brought up in France … We went to synagogue once a year for Yom Kippur, to appease the elder of the family, and nobody cared. I mean in the kids we didn’t care. I didn’t keep kosher, I didn’t go to Hebrew school, I was not religious at all. And yet, and yet, I just knew, I knew that I knew that I knew, that Jesus was not for us. Why? Because I was told, “We’re Jewish. Jesus is not for the Jews.” And then the vast majority of Jewish people, that’s enough for them. They don’t try to check, they don’t try to look at Scripture. And my wife, who at the time was not my wife, when we met, she said, “Listen, look at the Bible.” To me the Bible was like the phone book. I didn’t care. It’s a story, and maybe it’s true, maybe it’s not, I don’t know. But she said, “Look, all the prophecies about the coming Messiah are in the Jewish Scriptures.” And she’s not Jewish, but she was raised that way, to read the Bible that way, so it’s the Messianic prophecies that got me to the Messiah. For the Jewish people, for the vast majority, it’s a rejection of the person of Jesus as the Messiah simply because they were told that way. But a Jewish person looking into it with an open heart and an open mind cannot deny it. That’s what happened to me, 37 years ago.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: This is an off-the-cuff question, but do you remember the first time you read Isaiah 53? And what did that do to you?
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Actually, Isaiah 53 was probably not … In a lot of cases, the Jewish people when they read Isaiah 53, I have had it read. I read it to a lot of Jewish people in my witnessing, and I will read it to them, and they will go like, “It’s talking about Jesus. I don’t believe in the New Testament.” Now remember, 90% of the Jewish people probably will not be able of identify, let alone locate, where Isaiah is in the Jewish Bible. Okay. They don’t know. So you read that without any introduction, go like, “Yeah, it’s Jesus.”
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s from John or … yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Right, and then you tell them it’s 700 years before Jesus, the crucifixion didn’t exist, and it’s a Jewish prophet, and no, no, no. To me, I read Isaiah 53 later. The book that brought me to the Lord the was The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey, which had all the old … I’m sure he talked about Isaiah 53 in it, but he had so many more little chapters about prophecies and how they were fulfilled. It got me thinking, and that’s what got me going on wanting to make a decision for the Lord. But Jewish people, when they’re faced with the evidence that we have in the Jewish Bible about the coming Messiah, one prophecy after the next, it’s really hard to deny it. Really is.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And it’s funny, not funny, but it’s kind of sad. There’s a lot of misconceptions that Christians … even I used to have when I was a young believer. I was never taught that the Jewish people were still God’s chosen people and that He had a future purpose for them, and there’s unconditional promises that he made to them. That if He breaks those to the Jewish people, then how can we have confidence in the promises that he’s making to the church? But one of the huge misconceptions that I have seen in the church, and still see by and large, and it’s not really, in most places that I’ve seen, it’s not taught overtly, but it’s kind of caught and assumed almost, is replacement theology, that the church has just completely taken on all the promises to the Jewish people, and that kind of thing, which is sad because, when you dig into Scripture that’s not the case at all. And God has a beautiful plan at the end of time, when He merges both together, and it’s just … You can’t get past that. But what are some other misconceptions that you’ve seen, that Christians have about the Jewish people?
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Well, I find that the attitude that gentile Christians have towards the Jewish people are like on two opposite sides of a spectrum. It’s either, we want to replace them in God’s plan, that’s replacement theology. God’s blessings are all coming to the church now. And you notice, whenever there’s a replacement theology being taught, it’s only the blessings that God promised to Israel that go to the church.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, right. Good point.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: The curses can remain the property of ethnic Israel. Just the blessings. [crosstalk] Seriously, next time somebody says that, you go like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ll take the blessings, they can keep the curses.” So it’s either that side, or the other side is another knee-jerk reaction on the other side is that, let’s not bother the Jewish people. Because there are actually people who believe, it’s known as dual, like two, dual covenant theology. So one side is replacement theology, we’ve replaced them, we don’t need them anymore. God is done with them. The other side is, they already are in by virtue of being Jewish, through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It’s called dual covenant theology. The gentiles need to come through Jesus, the Jews, they go through Abraham, they’re in. If that was true, in John 3, then Jesus would have said to Nicodemus, “Don’t worry, you’re Jewish, you’re in.” That’s not what he said. That is not what he said. He said the opposite. He said, “You have to be born of water, and born of the Spirit.” So there’s no difference. So this dual covenant theology, to me, is a form of soft antisemitism. Because it’s people saying, “Let’s not bother the Jewish people. They’re in, we don’t need to share the gospel with them,” but not sharing the gospel with them and being kind and being nice to them, is to me a soft antisemitism, in a sense that we’re really hugging a Jewish person, without sharing the gospel, it’s akin to pushing them slowly over a cliff, holding their hand over a cliff, and then pushing them down. Because without the gospel they will not make it to eternity in God’s presence.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Well, that’s very well said, Olivier. I’ve encountered the same thing, where people are so surprised when they ask the question, “Well, aren’t all Jews going to automatically go to heaven?” Because they’re “God’s chosen people.” They don’t understand the difference between individual Jews and the nation of Israel, and how we all need the gospel no matter where we’ve come from. Flip the coin for us then, for a second, and talk about some of the misconceptions, perhaps, that Jewish people as a whole may have about Christians. They’re looking on the outside in on this bubble of Evangelical Christianity, so what do they see? What are some of the perceptions that are coming out from that?
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Well, one of the big ones is that … well there’s several, is we worship three gods. So the Trinity is really three different gods, and of course Judaism is monotheistic. So is Christianity, but we don’t have time to … maybe that’s the next podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I knew he would get it in.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: I like you guys. I just want-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Schedule him now.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: But so number one, not necessarily in that order, but one is, we worship three gods. And that can be easily, at least discussed, with the Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4, [Hebrew] “Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one,” and that’s usually … and that’s the Jewish creed, that Jewish people who are religious will recite that prayer every day. And at home, in synagogue, and even like on their way to their death. Throughout history, this was the creed that Jewish people would say, the last words out of their mouth is the Shema. The word echad in Hebrew means one, but it means compound unity. One made of many, like one cluster of grapes. Echad. And so I’m making this very short, otherwise we’d have a lot of … would be too long. But going back to Genesis-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: We’ll just do another podcast.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: There you go. Now we have two podcasts. So going back to Genesis 2, when God says that a man is to leave his family and cleave to his wife and they become one, they become echad, same word. So then you have an argument to say, listen, they are both becoming one in marriage, but they don’t become one person. They’re two, becoming one under marriage. The God of echad in Deuteronomy is one within the … we don’t say the Trinity at this point, we say the plurality. I would tell my Jewish friend, can we agree that there is a chance that maybe we’re speaking of plurality here? They cannot really deny that because there’s another word in Hebrew for one. It’s yachid, which means single unity. So you have single unity and compound unity. So if you agree, if you agree there is a chance for a plurality, then from plurality to Trinity is a short walk.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Right. That is fascinating.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s a great point. So the Trinity is sort of a … almost like a polytheistic thing to a Jewish mind, as they look at Christians.
|
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|
||||
Olivier: Right. And the other one is, Jewish people have told me over and over and over, a man cannot become God. Speaking of Jesus. And that’s really easy. I had a lady who I led to the Lord several years ago, a Jewish woman, from Israel, a Yemenite Jew, and she kept coming to our Bible study in California. And she kept saying, “I love your group. You seem sincere. I love what you’re teaching, but when you talk about that man who became God …” And over a period of five years, she asked me the same question, and I told her all the time, I said, “Listen, it’s the opposite. I’m with you. I would never agree to believe in a man who became God. That’s blasphemous. But that God in His infinite love and compassion for us, His creation, would lower Himself to become a man, one member of the Trinity, to become a man, so as a man, He can die and pay the price for our sins, but God can never die.”
|
||||
|
||||
So I told her that over a period of five years. One day she came to our house, and she said, “I need to talk about God.” And again she said, “I can’t believe that man would become a God.” And I said, “I told you many times,” and I told her the same. But it’s funny, I told the exact same thing, God became a man to lower Himself to die for us in His humanity, but God cannot die. I told her exactly the same thing I told her for five years, and she looks at me that day and she goes, “Now this I can accept.” All of sudden, when it’s God’s time-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: The Holy Spirit.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: … in our evangelism, in our sharing, we have to be patient. People are not just notch on a belt, okay, one more I shared with. We have to be patient, we have to understand that we’re believers, they’re not. Jews and gentiles, when we share with the lost, sometimes we don’t have the patience. Go like, “I’ve told you everything you need to know to believe. What’s up with you? How come you’re not believing?” It’s not their time. We have to have patience.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yes. I can relate to that. I mean my salvation was very similar, in that I knew it all, but I didn’t believe it. I rejected it. I had all the intellectual answers, and it was really God was working on me for a long period of time, but there was really nothing special that happened other than the fact I kept praying this one prayer, “God, if you’re the God of the Bible, just make me believe.” And I would say that in unbelief for several months, then literally one day I was praying that prayer, and it was the Holy Spirit. It was just like a light switch went on. Like all the sudden, it was like I was aware, “Wait, I do believe. Jesus, you’re my Messiah. Come and be my savior.” So you’re absolutely right, is it’s-
|
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|
||||
Olivier: We have to make the connection between the head and the heart. A lot of people have the knowledge, the head knowledge. But until the connection is made with the heart it’s just knowledge.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: And what’s also important, I think, for us as believers is the context of relationship. Yeah, I mean there’s time for group evangelism, and being the Billy Graham of the day, but for most of us, evangelism opportunities come in the context of relationship, or people see that we care about them, and want to meet their needs. And we walk with them for a while. So I think that’s a safe way to go. So you mentioned the Trinity-
|
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|
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Olivier: You mentioned Billy Graham. I tell you what. Nothing against the ministry, I think it’s a wonderful ministry, but you probably will never get a Jew to go to a Billy Graham crusade.
|
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|
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Jeff: Yeah. [crosstalk]
|
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|
||||
Olivier: Because the word is like, “Whoa. Don’t take me to a crusade.”
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Well, no seriously, because I think that’s one of the reasons why Campus Crusade changed their name to Cru. I was very involved with Campus Crusade. One of the things they said about witnessing in that ministry was, is that successful witnessing is sharing Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit and then leaving the results to God. And I think one of the greatest fears … I think fear itself is one of the greatest hindrances to evangelism, but when it comes to a people group of which you know very little, then the fear element rises. And just knowing that it’s, in the end, we need to know what we’re doing, but in the end it’s not up to us to bring that person to Christ. It’s the Holy Spirit’s job, and as you mentioned Nicodemus, I mean Jesus says, “You have to be born again from above to be saved.” And it’s the Spirit who wills, the Spirit who works, and so really there’s a great freedom in that. Don’t you agree?
|
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|
||||
Olivier: Oh absolutely. Absolutely. And the average Christian needs to know, listening to the podcast, is that the vast majority of average churchgoing Christian, who read their Bible on a weekly if not daily basis, know a lot more about the Jewish people, and a lot more about the Bible than the average Jewish person. So they should not be terrified of talking to a Jewish person. They just need to kind of make sure that they contextualize their conversation a little more, and use … it’s probably not a good idea to use the word church too much, or the word cross, or the word Christianity, because to those words there’s a stigma attached to those words. And you look at 2,000 years of history, and it’s … you can’t deny it. I found a really good way to get in too, is study … If a Jewish person talks to their Christian friend and they’re interested, the Jewish people believe the Old Testament is the word of God. That’s the Jewish Bible. It’s in a different order of the books, but it’s our Old Testament is the Tanach, the Jewish Bible. And we of course as believers also believe the New Testament to be inspired. Jewish people don’t believe the New Testament is inspired. Now Jewish people who study the Scriptures will almost never study the Scriptures without commentaries known as the Talmud, the Mishnah, the Gemara. The Talmud, the commentaries by sages over the centuries, and so and very often they’ll study the Talmud even more than the Scripture themselves.
|
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|
||||
So my approach is this. I tell a Jewish person, “You’re interested in looking for God and looking for answers.” You don’t … and I start offering a compromise. I said, “Listen, I believe the New Testament is inspired, but you don’t. So I’m going to put the New Testament aside for now. I’m not going to quote, I’m not going to open it, I’m not going to use it. I’m not rejecting it, I’m just putting it aside for now. I would appreciate if maybe you can put the Talmud aside, because I see great wisdom in it, but it’s not inspired. In my book it’s not inspired. So I will volunteer to put the New Testament aside, and if you can volunteer for the conversation to put the Talmud aside, then what are we left with? The Old Testament. The one that you and I can agree on that we can study together, saying this is the word of God.”
|
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|
||||
And then now, let’s start with Genesis and see if we can track a redeeming person, a Messianic figure, through all the Scriptures, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. And of course you can. And but here’s a problem, this is an easy invitation to give to a Jewish person. But then the burden is on you, can you take a Jewish person … not you two, but you in general, the Christian in general, can a Christian, can an average Christian take a Jewish person through the Old Testament, Messianic prophecy after Messianic prophecy to show them the Messiah? Most can’t, because they’re not prepared to do that. So it requires a little preparation and study.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah. What’s interesting to me is how, I’m thinking spiritual warfare, how the enemy works. He uses extra-Biblical things to confuse the matter, whether it’s the Talmud with the Jewish people, or whether it’s apocryphal books, or commentaries, or other traditions that come … or saying that, for example, that the Pope’s words carry as much weight as the Bible, so then you have that tension there, so that’s a common thing that I believe the enemy uses to confuse the matter.
|
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|
||||
Olivier: Absolutely. And another thing that the Jewish people also have as a misunderstanding, is that the word Christian. When you tell a Jewish person you’re a Christian, they’re not necessarily thinking that you’re a disciple of Jesus. To them, Christian means not Jewish.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Wow.
|
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|
||||
Olivier: So in the Jewish mindset, Hitler, the Pope, and Billy Graham are all Christians.
|
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Todd: Wow.
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|
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Jeff: Wow. Wow.
|
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|
||||
Olivier: That’s huge. Because [crosstalk] wait a minute, they are not all … so Christian is a description of somebody who’s not Jewish. So I always, when I talk to Jewish people, I spend a little bit of time defining the words I’m going to be using, and say, “When I say this, this is what I mean. When I say that, this is what I mean.” And we should do this every time we have a serious conversation, especially a theological conversation. Because nowadays, people will say something and all three will discuss it, not thinking of the same thing.
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. There’s so much baggage attached to words, coming from different perspectives. So be able to break it down, and to explain what you really … It’s kind of like every short-term mission trip I’ve ever been on. We’ve always had kind of a pre-trip briefing, or several months of it, kind of, hey, let’s understand this people we’re going to. What are cultural things that are offensive to them that we do here in America and don’t even think about? So it’s the same kind of thing. If God’s put a Jewish person in some of our listeners’ lives, they need to take that to heart and really learn where they’re coming from and how to-
|
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|
||||
Olivier: Absolutely. And the vast majority of Jewish people also believe that Christians are antisemitic. Because they just look at the stigma of Christianity over the last 2,000 years, and people can have a tendency to paint with broad strokes. So if Christianity has done this to us, then Christians are antisemitic, so it really … gentile Christians have to work extra hard to connect with their Jewish family members, Jewish friends, Jewish coworkers, to let them know, “Listen, I know a lot has been done in the name of Christianity, by some Christians in some cases. It doesn’t mean that all Christianity is to be dismissed. Okay, give me a chance to tell you what it means to be a Bible-believing follower of the Jewish Messiah.” And then you have a chance to explain.
|
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|
||||
Todd: So I have two questions that just immediately popped into my mind from that. So let’s just say I’m a listener right now, and I’m saying, “You know what? I love what Olivier says. He’s really good at this. I’m just going to let all the Jewish believers reach the Jews, and I’ll just reach my people.” So what would you say to someone like that, who just says, “Well, they have a little closer connection, because of who they are and stuff,” what about me? What about just the average Christian, what would you say to them?
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Well, I would say that you have a, again going back to what I shared in the beginning of the podcast, you have a Biblical mandate to make disciples of all nations, and making a disciple really implies that you’re doing evangelism. Because disciple is the under iceberg. The tip of the iceberg is evangelism, what’s under the water is discipling. And so make disciples of all nations, so you have a Biblical mandate to share with the Jewish people. But now if you take it back to Genesis 12:3, you have a promised blessing, for blessing the Jews. And I don’t see any better blessing than giving the gift of eternal life. It’s the gift that never stops giving. So blessing the Jewish people promises you blessings. And I’m not saying financial blessing, I’m saying blessing, broad general definition of being blessed by God, which we all want. But there’s nowhere in the Bible where it says that you should only witness to gentiles and not Jews. Now you might be called, listen, some people are called to witness, share the gospel with the elderly, some people are doing better job sharing with the youth, and some people will be better at sharing with Jewish people than others. We all have that mandate to be active in evangelism any chance we have, but God will gift us in different ways.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: But doesn’t exempt us from reaching a certain person. Especially, as you said, God puts that person in your life in some way. Right?
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: That’s right. I mean yes, we have … I mean me, I live in an area that’s not very Jewish, and then when we moved to our new house, the house to the right has a Jewish woman who’s married to a gentile. And they’re not practicing, but they’ve already come to our house for Passover and for Hanukkah, and they know what we believe, and they ask questions, so the opportunities, if you really ask God to give you the opportunities, He will give you the opportunities. And we should always be open for that.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Second part of my question then, Olivier, is, so a person obviously having tools, having resources is key in something like this, when you’re starting from scratch. Is there a resource that you would recommend that would just say, “Okay, here are the top 20 Old Testament prophetic verses that speak to the coming Messiah,” as a way you can introduce or build a bridge? Ah, tell us about what you’re showing us there.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: This is a book but that was written by Arnold Fruchtenbaum. I’ve been using it. I teach this, I do a Zoom Bible study at least once a year. It’s called Ha-Mashiach: The Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures. It’s basically his treatment of Messianic christology. It is a very, very good volume on all the Messianic prophecies of the Tanach, of the Old Testament. One by one, and like Genesis 3:15, Genesis 22:18, Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 7:14, the virgin birth, 9:6-7, the humanity and the divinity. So if you go through this book, you equip yourself with, I think, a good answer, a good explanation for the Messianic prophecies. And you can meet with your Jewish friend, and you can even use that as a guide, and let’s see if we can go through all those passages and discuss them. So that is my go-to. It’s published by Ariel Ministries. It’s very good. I love this. And then there’s a five volume set by Dr. Michael Brown. Answering Jewish Objections to … and theological objections, cultural objections, different historical objections, that’s a little more academic, I should say. It’s very good. Very good, but more academic. This is … I would use this as a tool to equip oneself in knowing the prophecies about the Messiah.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Well I would just add to that real quickly that there’s also room for another one, a concise guide to reaching your Jewish friends. Perhaps written by someone that we all three of us know.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Sitting in front of us.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Yes. Yeah, I see what you’re saying. There are other books. I mean we have one at Chosen People Ministries called How to Share Messiah with Your Jewish Friends. It’s a small volume, but it’s got good pointers on what to say, what not to say, how to do it, how to say it. For instance, I always tell people, it’s always great to send a card to your Jewish friends, a greeting card for the holidays. But I always add, make sure you never send them one for Yom Kippur. Happy Yom Kippur. It’s the Day of Atonement. It’s a day of … it’s a somber day. But people don’t know that. I had a pastor call me years ago, say “Olivier …” I knew he loves Israel. He loves the Jewish people. He had me at his church many times. He called me, on Yom Kippur, he says, “Olivier, just want to wish you a happy Yom Kippur.” I had to do the mildest rebuke I could to a brother who was trying to do good.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s brilliant. Man. That is brilliant. Gosh, there’s so much here that we’ve talked about, Todd.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, I was going to say, he hinted at a few cliffhangers, but also I have a sneaking suspicion, just the nature of, even from a prophecy angle, things that are kind of shaping up in Israel right now, other things that are happening around the world, getting Olivier’s perspective on some of those things I think is going to be key. So I have a sneaking suspicion we’ll have him back for another episode sometime soon, if that’s okay with you-
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: … Olivier.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Well, I might make myself available again. It’s a joy being with you guys.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Well, it’s … we feel the same way, brother. And speaking of just prophecy, end times, I mean your book on end times antisemitism was so helpful to me in writing my next book that’s coming out in April, I have a whole chapter on just how the Bible says it’s going to ramp up against Jews and against Christians in the end times, and I had to really stop myself from quoting you. I thought, “Gosh, they’re going to think I’m just lifting his whole book and just putting it in my chapter here.” But it was just an invaluable resource. We highly recommend that book by Olivier on end times antisemitism. But again, that creates another opportunity, doesn’t it, as we see things heating up for Jews and Christians. It gives people who know the Lord an opportunity, an open door if you will, to say “Hey, look. Things are kind of getting testy around the world. Have you ever thought about how God might be bringing the world into an end, how the Jewish people, Israel, Christians, we all kind of dovetail into that?” So there’s opportunities. We just have to keep our eyes open.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Absolutely. I forgot, last time in the previous podcast, did I touch on the new righteous gentiles among the nations?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: I don’t think so.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Did I touch on that?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: I don’t believe so.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Okay, so I think that’s … I got the next podcast for you.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: There you go.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: This, I have this … I think I sent you this book, you guys, right? Do you have this book, The Time Is Now? This is a little manual on how … what Christians can do today to make a difference in a Jewish community, and to reach out to their Jewish friends. And I think that would be good that we talk about that, if you want me to come back in awhile. But there was a group of people during the war, during the Holocaust, that helped the Jews, hiding them on a farm, or … which was actually the story of my mother, and I can tell you that briefly another time, and they became righteous among the nations according to the Yad Vashem Museum in Israel. And I had this idea that, I don’t want to call it a vision, but this idea that, for such a time as this, right now we’re looking at what’s happening against the Jews, and there’s going to be a need for a new righteous gentiles among the nations, and they will be the Christians of today who love the Jewish people, who’d actually be willing to do something to help the Jewish people in a great time of need.And I look at the passage in Matthew about the goats and the sheep, and I know that, eschatologically speaking, the three of us would look at this as happening during the tribulation. But there’s a model, if you are a disciple of the Messiah, you love the Jews, and you do anything for them, which means what you do to them you do to the Messiah. Good or bad. So using that model, it will take place in the future, using the model we can apply that to today, and start explaining to today’s Christians what can you do to really make a difference in a Jewish community in a positive way, towards furthering the kingdom. So maybe we can talk about that next time.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely. Well, it makes sense, because we don’t even know what this new presidential administration, what their posture’s going to be with Israel, just how friendly they’re going to be, or if they’re going to try to rescind some of the things that were done in the previous administration, so all the more reason why Christians need to step up and be a friend both to Israel and to individual Jews. So Olivier-
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: And one more thing. When they go after the Jews, the Christians are not far behind.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: That’s right.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: So we have to be prepared for that, too.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yep. Very true. Well gosh, Todd, this has been a great discussion as usual. There’s such a kindred spirit among the three of us, and we’re just praying that God would allow us to minister together through this podcast, and perhaps through other ways as well. And Olivier, it’s always a pleasure to hang out with you, brother, and just to get your perspective and your wisdom and your experience. Thank you so much for being with us.
|
||||
|
||||
Olivier: Same here, and people can visit my website at newantisemitism.com. And my books are there, and they’re also on Amazon. So you can find them on Amazon under Olivier Melnick.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Thank you so much for joining us.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Did you know you can find the Prophecy Pros on the Edifi Network? That’s right. We’re there now, and we’re getting massive exposure. So cool. It’s E-D-I-F-I. The Edifi Network. Check it out, subscribe, and listen with other podcasts as well on that great network. And as always, we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for making this possible. We could not do this without them.
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@ -1,73 +0,0 @@
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![[S3E7: Wait Jesus! Don’t Come Just Yet!.mp3]]
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---
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Todd: Today, we’re going to talk about one aspect of the Lord’s return that you might not expect us to talk about. Stay tuned.All right, Jeff, we’re going to talk about something today that’s a little bit different aspect concerning the Lord’s return, and it has to do with kind of the younger generations. I’ve got two college age kids and one 10th grader and they know about Bible prophecy, but at the same time, they’re planning for their future. My oldest son just got engaged. They’re excited about the things to come, the normal life milestones that we all look forward to and stuff. So that generation, you and I have both gotten questions from listeners like, “Well, wait, I don’t want the Lord to come just yet. I got some life to live. I got some things to do, some things I want to experience.” So today we’re going to talk about how we can encourage people like that. So you’ve worked a lot with youth and stuff like that, so you fielded this question several times. So what are some answers that you have for those people?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah, and I totally identify with that. Every guy just says, “Lord, can I just first get married before you come back?” My kids are all married and they’re in their 20s and having kids themselves and babies on the way and that type of thing. So they have this attitude, it’s like, “Jesus, I love you, I want you to come back, but could you just wait just a little bit to do that?” And there’s almost this thing that’s going on, it’s almost like a duality within us, we have these two desires that sometimes compete with one another is that we do want the Lord to come back. At the same time, there’s many things that we want to do that we want to experience in life.And I think part of that, Todd, comes from a very, very subtle place that says that what we can experience here is better than what we might get in heaven. And I’m not saying that’s a sinful thing or anything, but it’s just one of those deals where obviously we’ve been sort of programmed all our lives to think about different milestones, different life experiences that we have, and we think, “Well, Jesus, if you come back, you’re going to rob me of those things.” So I think there’s that going on, but I don’t think it’s a sinful thing. I think it’s just really a part of our humanity, a part of us being real people and being honest and that type of thing. We all want to experience different things in life. And yet in our humanity, sometimes we experience that weakness, that lack of foresight and perspective and understanding about the future.
|
||||
|
||||
And even Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane in His humanity cried out, “Lord, is there any other way that we can do this?” He didn’t want to go to the cross in His humanity, but obviously He submitted Himself to the Father, was obedient to the Father in His humanity. And so I think part of it is that whole FOMO thing, fear of missing out in life that people have, but at the same time, we don’t want to miss what God has for us on this earth today.
|
||||
|
||||
So I guess part of the perspective would just be to understand how great heaven is going to be, and maybe just to kind of recalibrate our minds a little bit about the future and what heaven’s going to be like. When we talk about that and… John 14, Jesus said, “I’m going to prepare a place for you.” And wow, just the import and the content that’s involved in all of that, and we talk about the new Jerusalem and all the joy and the things that we’re going to have in heaven, Revelation 20, the millennial kingdom, Revelation 21 and 22, where He talks about what heaven’s going to be like, when we dwell on that, it sort of puts this life in perspective. Now it doesn’t mean that we still don’t want to experience things in this life. It’s just that as we kind of put those dual desires together, they’re not as competing as perhaps they used to be.
|
||||
|
||||
And, Todd, obviously I have that too. There are many things in life I want to do, and it’s kind of in the back of my mind, I go, “Lord, if you could hold off your coming, I could accomplish these things and see these milestones, see my grandkids grow up,” or whatever. But at the same time, it’s like I do want Jesus to come back today. So can we live with both those things?
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: It is, and honestly, I think it’s kind of a healthy tension, because we’re in this world, but not of it. We know that this is not our home. We’re not citizens of here. And like you said, heaven, everything here will pale in comparison to heaven. We were joking this morning, if you and I were to die today and go to heaven, we wouldn’t be wanting to come back and experience some of the milestones that we’re looking forward to. There’d be no question that, “Okay, yeah, I want to stay here. This is a lot better,” instead of going back and having to sin nature and having to deal with hangnails and headaches and everything else that life throws at you.
|
||||
|
||||
So part of it’s perspective, and we definitely understand that somebody who’s younger would be looking forward to those things. And also, to be honest, when people are younger there’s more nostalgia involved in things than… Once you experience them, sometimes… There’s definitely some great life experiences, but also life is tough. Those tough moments make us long for the Lord’s return, and having that shift of perspective is key. And like you said, John 14, He’s gone to prepare a place for us. He knows us intimately. We read about that in Psalm 139 that even our days are numbered. So I think there’s a trust aspect too. Just focus on living for today, plan for your future, keep moving forward. You’ve often quoted that famous Martin Luther quote that, “Even if the Lord was coming tomorrow, I’d still plant a tree today.” We can’t just stop living and be in a holding pattern, waiting for the Lord’s return. We need to live with expectancy, but also plan for the future and keep our eyes wide open as we pay attention to the signs that show us that the Lord’s return’s coming.And I think key, too, and this is something, just being real, I struggle with daily is living for today, being in the moment. So often we have regrets from the past or we have anxiety about the future, but all we really have is today. The other things distract us. If we read Matthew 6:33-34, it speaks volumes. “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble on its own.” Amen to that.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I think all of our listeners can identify with that is that we all struggle with things in our lives and we have things in our lives that we go, “But that’d be great if this were just gone out of my life, my struggle with sin, my struggle with relationships, my struggle with the world and what’s going on, the anxiety that the world brings.” Well, guess what? The rapture cures all those things. All those things that we talk about we want to get rid of, the rapture actually deals with those things.But I will say, too, in 1 Thess 4, beginning verse of 13, where Paul starts to talk about the rapture, Todd, one of the things that I love about it is that at the end of this whole passage, he says, “Therefore comfort one another with these words.” And the rapture, the doctrine of the rapture is a great comfort. Anytime the rapture is not giving us comfort, it tells us that we’re not looking at the rapture properly, because when we look at the coming of the Lord, the rapture, the parousia, the appearance of the Lord as Paul describes it, guess what? We get to meet Jesus there. That’s a really big deal. He’s the person, he’s the one that our souls long for. He’s the one that we long to meet. And obviously, we should long to meet Jesus more than we long to pay off our house or get a new car or have our next book be released.
|
||||
|
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Todd: Our next book be written. Exactly. You’re talking to two authors here that we loved when our books come out. But also, just getting even more personal, yes, I would love to see our grandkids, our kids experience certain things in my life and stuff like that, but… And those are important and Jesus wants us to want those things, but at the same time, putting it in perspective. When we compare that to longing for Jesus, when we compare that to looking forward and anxiously anticipating His return, there really is no comparison. And it reminds me of what Christ says in Matthew 10:37, where He says, “He who does not love me more than father, mother, or wife,” or spouses, and that kind of thing, “is not worthy of me.” And so it kind of is a little bit of a gut check to say, “How much am I loving Christ to how much am I in love with Jesus?” and I think the more that we are in love with Jesus, it doesn’t mean we won’t have those desires to see those things accomplished in our lives, but it does put it in a perspective for us to look forward to that event called the rapture.So even if the rapture came today, here’s the great thing. We get changed and transformed, to where one second after the rapture, we’re going to look back and go, “Man, did you really have to come now?” No, no. When we see Jesus, we’re going to go, “What? I don’t even remember what’s going on on planet Earth because of who I’m looking at and who I’m with right now.”
|
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Hey, thanks so much for tuning in today and listening to this episode of the Prophecy Pros Podcast. We know that when we study Bible prophecy or talk about it, one answered question might lead to other questions you have. So we have a special place set up on the website where you can go and ask Jeff and I a question. Just go to prophecyprospodcast.com. And there, you can also learn more about our books, where to find them, and other resources. We thank you so much for tuning in. Be sure to share this, subscribe, like, and anything else you can do to let your friends and family know about the Prophecy Pros Podcast.And I think we forget we’re the bride of Christ, and the Jewish wedding picture is that the groom has gone away to prepare our place, you mentioned that, and we’re awaiting His return. If we don’t have the attitude that we’re really longing for Him to come and get us then, like you said, maybe our focus is a little bit too much on the world. And I don’t say that in a judge-y way. I totally get it. But I think the more we contemplate how amazing the rapture is going to be and all the things that He has for us in our future, it makes everything else pale in comparison. And in the meantime, we get to live for Him, not we have to live for Him. We get to live for Him. He has an amazing plan for us.I talked to a lot of people who are maybe contemplating becoming a believer, or maybe they’re a new believer and they’re struggling with sin. And I try to tell them, “Everything you think you have to give up for the Lord, He’s going to replace with something so much better.” The enemy does a good job of making us think that God’s keeping something from us. That’s how He tempted Adam and Eve. He does a good job of making us think, “Oh, the rapture’s, that’s going to be a scary thing.” No, it’s an amazing thing. In a split second, we will no longer have a sin nature. We’ll have new, glorified, spiritual bodies that can do some crazy stuff, and we’ll be in the presence of the Lord. How much better does it get than that?
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There’s an aspect you can be so heavenly-minded, you’re no earthly good, in the sense that if all you do is talk about theology, theology, theology, but never do anything and don’t have joy, that’s different. But in my opinion, the more you study heaven and the things that are coming, the more earthly good you are, I feel like I’ve thrived more as I contemplate those things and study Bible prophecy and study eschatology. I feel like my Christian life has come to life on a whole new level, and I notice that other people who study Bible prophecy and eschatology experience the same thing.
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Jeff: Yeah. That’s a great point. You mentioned about being the bride. I’ve done in my ministry career probably about 80 weddings over the years, and in fact did one a couple of weeks ago, one of my former youth. And just standing at the front, seeing that bride walk down the aisle, what’s in her eyes, the anticipation as she up and sees her bridegroom, it just blows me away every single time. But what you don’t see in a bride’s eyes or what you don’t hear in her voice, what you don’t sense in her heart, is that, “Man, I wish I could just hang with my girlfriends more. Put off this wedding day thing, man. I just want to…” No, no. She is so anticipating, so excited about her wedding day.So I think one action point on this, Todd, would be, just like everything else in our life, every other thought that we have, we just acknowledge these things with God. I think God honors honesty, and when you read the Psalms, what I love about the Bible is that there’s so much gut-level raw honesty about its participants, not only what the Bible writes about them, but what they themselves write. When you read the Psalms, you read what David wrote, the sons of Korah, Moses, all those who compose the Psalms, you see this gut-level honesty. When you read Solomon, Ecclesiastes, man, he’s not talking about, “I made a couple mistakes, whatever, but on the whole I was a pretty good guy.” No, he tells us everything-
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Todd: Gut-wrenching.
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Jeff: Yeah, it’s just gut-wrenching. And it’s just that sense of transparency before God. So we shouldn’t be afraid to admit to God the things that make us feel ashamed, whether they be out and out sinful things, as 1 John 1:9 says, “Confess our sins to God. He is faithful and just. Forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” or just to acknowledge, “God, I’m just kind of having a blah thought about you, or I’m just not really motivated right now, or I really kind of like what I’m doing here more than I’m thinking about heaven.” Just acknowledge that to Him and confess that to Him.
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And then secondly, to make an active, progressive choice to get into the word and to let God’s word then begin to transform our thinking. Because if you think about it, Todd, God made the human mind, He understands the brain, and He crafted the whole concept of truth that it impacts our minds. And then that causes us, it kind of splinters off into our emotions and our will so that we can make choices, active choices based on the truth, and we can allow the truth to really inform and impact our emotions. I know many times we kind of lead with our emotions. I do that sometimes as well, so I totally get that. But I think sometimes when we think about this whole thing about just kind of putting the rapture off, it’s really more of an emotional thing. But if we allow God’s truth to kind of marinate in our minds and sink down in the soil of our thoughts, then those seeds begin to germinate. And then eventually… Doesn’t mean we, kind of like a switch, we just say, “Oh, Lord, I rebuke that emotion,” and it’s gone. No, no. The emotions are huge, but over time I think it can really form and help to transform our emotions where they begin to get on board with our thoughts and with the truth of God. So just to focus on Him and allow that process to take place.
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Todd: That’s a fantastic bit of advice right there. The emotions follow the mind, and we have a choice to what we let in our mind and what we study and what we think about. And what better thing to camp out on mentally than God’s truth?
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Jeff: Absolutely.
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Todd: And also, I think, one last thing, it comes down to… Or one healthy aspect that we can apply to this as well is just trust. We don’t know, this is a little morbid, but we’re not guaranteed tomorrow. But like we mentioned earlier, Psalm 139 talks about just how intimate and specific and detailed God’s foreknowledge and plans are for us. Proverbs 3:5-6 says, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge Him.” So that’s just a healthy way to be, to trust the Lord daily, to be in the moment, to plan for our future and know that and invite Him into our future, but also just to trust that He’s got all this under control. And now more than ever I think that’s a vital thing for us to camp out on because the world’s going crazy.
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Even younger people that I speak with are a little fearful about some of the things going on and wondering what kind of plans they should make. Don’t stop planning, don’t stop living, keep moving forward, plan to do big things for the Lord. But at the same time, live in the moment, in this day. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Tomorrow’s got some crazy stuff coming maybe, but all you have is right now, that you can impact anyway. Put your trust in the Lord, trust Him implicitly, and I guarantee you’ll have more peace, more joy. Like Jeff said with the rapture, it’s our blessed hope and it’s designed to encourage us and to give us something to look forward to as we await the groom to come and fetch the bride.
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Jeff: Amen. And the whole thing you said about faith is so true, Todd. Hebrews 11:6 says, “Without faith, it is impossible to please God.” And really, we live by faith. That’s what Romans 10 says, “The just will live by faith.” And it really boils down to just acknowledging the fact that, “God, you’ve got a better plan than my plan.” That sounds real simplistic-
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Todd: Profound.
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Jeff: But, man, that’s like mature Christians have to make that decision all the time. And just saying to God, “God, I believe that what you have for me is better. If that means the rapture, then today, then yeah, that’s going to be the better thing. So your plan is better than my plans, better than my dreams, even better than my deepest, most deeply held desires. Your plan is better.”
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I know when I was in college, I had a girlfriend. Well, I broke up with a girlfriend and I’d been dating her for several years, and it was literally the most gut-wrenching thing that had ever happened to me. I drove out in the country. I had a fist-shaking little argument with God. It’s like, “God, why? Why am I having to do this?” But God wanted me to do that. I remember at that moment, Todd, something happened in my heart. It wasn’t this super revelation kind of thing, but I sensed in my spirit, the Lord just communicating to me, “Jeff, let go and take my hand. And if you’ll take my hand, trust me, my grip on you will be stronger than your grip on me.” There was a sense of absolute release and freedom that I had never had in my entire Christian life up into that point.
|
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And I share that illustration just simply to say that sometimes we hold on tight to the things that mean most to us, that have significance in our lives, and we think that if we let go of those things, we let go of our dreams for the future, somehow we’re going to miss out on stuff. But God, what happened? That decision to break up with her, in essence, gave me the freedom to date other girls. And guess what? That’s how I met my wife.
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Todd: And y’all have been together how long now?
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Jeff: Over 40 years now, dating and marriage concluded. So yeah, a long time. It turned into a great investment. I hope my wife says the same thing. But the point is is that I know that some younger listeners are thinking, you’re thinking about your whole life ahead of you. You may have your whole life ahead of you, but you know what? Even if you don’t, even if the rapture does come, you’ve got your whole eternity ahead of you, and Jesus has something planned for you in eternity that’s going to absolutely explode your thinking, blow your mind at how good it’s going to be compared to what we have here on Earth.
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Todd: Amen. And I also think that that age group, in particular, because as I mentioned, I have two college age students, my daughter’s a freshman this year, and anyone who’s been to college knows that’s a tough transition. So much stuff’s coming at you so fast, and for believers, for most kids too, it’s a time where your faith has to move from theoretical and… And you’re saved, you know the Lord, but suddenly you’re out in the world and you have to make choices that align your walk and your choices with the Lord and you have to make intentional decisions on who you’re surrounding yourself with, where you’re going, what your own personal convictions and standards are and that kind of thing.
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Jeff: Getting real [inaudible].
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Todd: Getting real, yeah. Exactly. And that can be a really, really trying time. And then you add COVID-19 and everything crazy that’s been happening in 2020 and 2021, it’s no wonder that kids of that age are really struggling to plan for the future and also wanting great things for the future. And then to hear about the rapture, and they’re like, “Well, wait, my future is taken away from me too?” What we’re trying to say is God loves you more than you realize. You pursue God, He’s not going to let you down. He will never leave you, never forsake you. Every step you take towards Him and in His will, He’s just going to guide you to His best for you. He’s the groom. He loves you. He loves you and wants better things for you than you want for yourself. So, again, it boils down to trust and just pursuing God with a passion and knowing that His plan is way more exciting, way more fulfilling than anything you think you’ve got going on.
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Jeff: And I think that’s the essence of, like you said, Todd, trusting God and just laying our lives in His hands. And, again, whether the rapture comes or whether we live another 30 years or whether somehow we pass before then and go to be with the Lord, either way, “Our times are in your hands,” as scripture says. So I think that’s a good word to really comfort us, but also to encourage us, maybe just kind of shake the dust off our thinking a little bit and get our minds calibrated with scripture. When we do that, our hearts are filled with hope, and hope is what we need more in our lives today.
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Did you know you can find the Prophecy Pros on the Edifi network?
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Todd: That’s right.
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Jeff: We’re there now, and we’re getting massive exposure. So cool. It’s E-D-I-F-I, the Edifi network. Check it out, subscribe, and listen with other podcasts as well on that great network.
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Todd: And as always, we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for making this possible. We could not do this without them.
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![[S3E8: Erwin Lutzer: Speaking Up and the Price of Faithfulness.mp3]]
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Todd: Well, today, you’re going to hear about one of the most relevant books for the church today. You do not want to miss today’s episode. Dr. Erwin Lutzer is pastor emeritus of the Moody Church, where he served as senior pastor for 36 years. He’s the featured speaker on three radio programs that are heard on more than 1000 outlets in the United States and around the world. Dr. Lutzer is also an award-winning author on numerous books, including the amazing book that we’re going to be talking about today. He has literally spoken around the world and Dr. Lutzer and his wife Rebecca live in the Chicago area and have three grown children and eight amazing grandchildren. Dr. Lutzer, welcome to the Prophecy Pros podcast. How you doing today?
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Erwin: I’m doing very well. And thank you so much for this dialogue, as we attempt to help believers during this very troubling and confusing time.
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Jeff: Absolutely.
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Todd: Absolutely, that’s definitely why we’ve got you here and I’ve had the chance to read a few chapters of your book and I cannot wait. I’m going away this weekend for a speaking gig. Actually, Jeff and I are both, we’ll both be in Texas, but I have some downtime. So on the plane so I plan to finish the book by the time I get home. I can’t wait to read the rest of it. Just to give our listeners a little context for your book, We Will Not Be Silenced. I want to read a paragraph from the back of the book that explains the reason and the purpose for this amazing work, It says, “In We Will Not Be Silenced, Dr. Erwin Lutzer prepares you to live out your convictions against a growing tide of hostility, gain a better understanding of nonbelievers legitimate hurts and concerns regarding issues like racism, sexism, and poverty, and identify the toxic responses secular culture disguises as solutions. In the process you’ll see how you can show compassion and gentleness to those outside the faith without affirming their belief.”With that long setup, Dr. Lutzer, share a little bit about the book and kind of what led you to write it. How this all transpired?
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Erwin: I wrote the book We Will Not Be Silenced when I began to realize that the radical left in America does not believe that America can be fixed. It has to be destroyed and completely rebuilt. And then as I began to understand cultural Marxism. Now, what we need to do is to understand that classical Marxism was primarily about economics. Marx believed that if the state had the means of production and owned everything then all of the benefits could be equally distributed. That of course was a disaster for many different reasons, but he also believed that the nuclear family had to be destroyed. And we need to understand the reason for that is that, for Marx, the key to history was oppression, and he saw the nuclear family as a unit of oppression. After all men oppressed their wives, parents oppressed their children. They took them to church and God was the ultimate oppressor.
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So what he believed is that the nuclear family has to be destroyed, and we can talk about how that’s to be done, but to jump in something very relevant, I point out in my book Do Black Lives Matter, absolutely black lives matter. All black lives matter, but the organization that takes that mantra says that it is Marxist, and isn’t it interesting that on it’s website, it says that it believes in the disillusion of the unit of the nuclear family, because what happens is, and this is related to the whole issue of sexuality, it’s related to the whole issue of income, inequality, and so forth.
|
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Now to give a quick survey to your initial question. What I do in this book is show how Marxism is applied to history, the destruction of our monuments, the attack against our Judeo-Christian values and origins, that all has to be destroyed. I also show how it applies to race. I certainly hope that we get into that today because I think the church has an answer that critical race theory and other Marxist ideas don’t work, but also how it applies to freedom of speech.
|
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And as you might know, I also have in it a chapter on how propaganda works. Boy, I hope we get a chance to talk about that. The sexualization of children, socialism and all that. And since I’m giving a survey, also how it is that Islam, radical Islam, and radical left team up together to destroy capitalism and Christianity. And yet we live in a world where everyone is vilified and the person who shouts the loudest is the one who wins the argument.
|
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So, that’s where we’re at. And it gives you a bit of my heart. My desire always is to prepare the church. It isn’t simply to give people information, but to help us to see in perspective and what it is that we should be doing as the dark times get darker.
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Jeff: Amen. Dr. Lutzer, you’ve had the opportunity to sit in a position where you can sort of from a plateau standpoint, spiritually see the landscape of our country for many years and been able to see it transition through many different changes. From a biblical and a spiritual perspective how do you think we got to this point here? I mean, what are some of the factors biblically, spiritually, morally that have led to the condition that we find ourselves in in America today?
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Erwin: I think that there are multiple streams that have formed this river. There is, as I mentioned, a cultural Marxism, which is being taught in our universities. And so these students come into their businesses and into their homes and that’s in their background. In addition to that, technology. In my chapter on the sexualization of children, I point out that the cell phone in your teenager’s hand does more to inform his or her view of the world and reality than an hour of church or an hour of Bible study. So what we need to do is we have to fight this on multiple fronts.
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Furthermore, what you have is the fact that we as human beings, and Jonathan Edwards certainly agreed with this, he wrote an essay about it, are basically desire driven. And that’s why you see the church today conceding to the culture, is because we don’t really know what to do. We want to be loving. We don’t want to put up unnecessary stumbling blocks to the gospel. And so what we do is we preach love and we let everything else slide. This is a bigger issue than perhaps for us as pastors, than for the average person. The average church wants to be known as loving, as caring, and so they don’t discuss the cultural currents that exist in our society. Now I differed from that. At Moody Church, I tried to preach on such things as same-sex marriage, transgenderism, et cetera, but many people back off.
|
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|
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Now I have to get this in, and then we’ll go to your next question. This idea of love. Many people think, “Well, what’s wrong with love? What’s wrong if two men love each other?” et cetera. We have to understand that when Adam and Eve sinned, they didn’t stop loving. They just started to love the wrong things, lovers of pleasure, lovers of money, lovers of self. And so what we have to do is to realize that not everything that is loving is biblical. So people tend to go toward their desires.
|
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And you folks oftentimes talk about prophecy, in a sense, this was prophesied, and what we need to do is to recognize that these things are happening. But one other word, I wrote the book We Will Not Be Silenced, that’s the book we’re talking about, not so much to reclaim the culture, but to reclaim the church, because I see the church being much more influenced by the culture than the culture is being impacted by the church. And the church is, in many respects, for many reasons, beginning to reflect the culture rather than challenge it.
|
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|
||||
Todd: That’s so well put. Yeah. And Jeff and I often talk about how a lot of that is the, prophetically speaking is some of that end times falling away from truth that we’re seeing and how the church is really watering down the gospel and that kind of thing. And I’m glad you’re talking about what you are, that we can speak the truth in love, and we’ve replaced the truth with all the love, which is only half of the equation. So I appreciate this book on that respect as well.
|
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|
||||
And to that regard, what are some of the tactics you see being used by secularists to silence biblical truth and kind of destroy the Judeo-Christian foundations of our country? You mentioned propaganda. In the book you talk about how the word tolerance, for example, has been given new meaning. It doesn’t mean what it used to mean and also things like the social gospel and other things that are creeping, not just into culture, but into the church at large.
|
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|
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Erwin: All right, I see you as asking a multiple number of questions.
|
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|
||||
Todd: Sorry, I’m famous for that.
|
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|
||||
Erwin: All right. Good. It’s good to be famous for something.
|
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|
||||
Todd: That’s right.
|
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|
||||
Erwin: Now, here’s the thing, the attack on our Judeo-Christian values is obvious. What people want to do, you have the 1619 Project, which I discussed where America actually began with slavery and with capitalism and that’s the seat of all of our ills. Slavery is terrible. We have to understand that, but at the same time, that’s not reason to give up our Judeo-Christian values and try to replace it with something else. And I discuss how even the Constitution, they hope to change.
|
||||
|
||||
But now to the other issue that you raised. What are the kinds of pressures on the church that we should be silenced, in contrary to the title of my book, We Will Not Be Silenced. No, here’s the thing. In it I discuss freedom of speech. Most people don’t know that the attacks against freedom of speech actually are Marxist. In the 1960s, there was a philosopher, a Marxist philosopher by the name of Herbert Marcuse And he said this, “If we have freedom of speech, capitalists are always going to win the argument because they’re the oppressors.” Remember we’re talking about Marxism, everybody’s in the category of oppressor or oppressed. “They are going to win the argument. So what we have to do is to limit freedom of speech. It’s time for the capitalists to be quiet and the oppressed alone should speak.” And that explains what’s happening in our universities where conservatives are silenced and so forth because they are the oppressors, and what we need is finally the oppressed, the LGBT community, the minorities, they should speak, and these bigots should be quiet. So that’s interesting. But I have to take it beyond that in my chapter on propaganda. And by the way, the purpose of propaganda is to so change people’s perception of reality, that even when faced with a mountain of evidence, they will not change their minds. And that’s why politically, sometimes, facts really don’t matter. But here’s the point. In the book I discuss collective demonization. Now this was perfected in Russia. The point was simply this, that if Russia, if the leadership decided that somebody was a non-person, and that they were persona non grata, that they were to be deleted, as we would say today, everyone had to chime in.
|
||||
|
||||
There were people who never met the person, who didn’t even hear of his name, or what he believed, and they wrote letters, virtue signaling, “We’re on your side.” You young men might not know it, but many years ago, I wrote a book on Hitler’s cross. What we must do is recognize that churches in Germany sometimes put out Nazi flags on their door, saying in effect, when you come to the Christians, don’t come here, because we’re on your side. And isn’t that exactly what we see today, where you have de-platforming, one person is de-platformed. Just the other day I now heard about another ministry that you folks would know about, but I won’t mention, who have just been de-platformed. They’ve been on a certain channel. And that channel came along and said, “We can’t have you anymore.” Collective demonization.
|
||||
|
||||
And I might quote Churchill, who said, “An appeaser is someone who feeds the crocodile with the hope that the crocodile will eat him last.” So what you have is people saying today, asking themselves, “Am I woke enough to be seen as a person of virtue?” And one of the great problems is you have these people who believe that they are virtuous, and the rest of us aren’t, and therefore they can lecture us regarding a whole lot of other things. And that’s one of the failures by the way of Marxism. Marxism did not understand that we are all sinners. As Solzhenitsyn says, “The line between good and evil does not run between countries and races. It runs through every human heart.”
|
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|
||||
Jeff: Amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: And Christianity proves itself to be true in this regard, and we can’t solve the problems here in America without recognizing that. But unfortunately, that is not being recognized.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah, I say this literally, it’s a brilliant satanic deception that he has foisted upon the church to make her think that she’s being more spiritual if she’s woke, as opposed to being awakened spiritually, as Jesus told, Revelation 3:2, “Wake up.” as opposed to being awake where we want to be woke because that gains us acceptance with the world. And you mentioned cancel culture. And this thing is just really getting legs. To be able to attack someone at the foundation of who they are, the mere appearance of racism, bigotry, impropriety, discrimination, all these things, if it sticks just long enough, that person can be canceled.
|
||||
|
||||
So, I think about what Paul said to Timothy in II Timothy 2:9, he says, “For which,” according to the gospel, “which I suffer hardship to imprisonment as a criminal, but the word of God is not imprisoned.” So Dr. Lutzer, how can we as Christians in this cancel culture, they’re basically saying to Christians, “You need to shut up, get out of the way, and move on with your life and get out of our way, so that we can be in charge of you.” How do Christians respond to that? How radical, how vocal, how tall do we stand in a culture that is beginning to fight against who we are?
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: Well, once again, that’s a number of different questions, but here’s the point I want to emphasize, and I hope everyone listens carefully. I’ve studied a little bit of church history. As a matter of fact, I wrote a book on the Reformation. I assume that you folks perhaps haven’t read it. There are millions of people who haven’t read it. I know that all of you are authors. Have you ever noticed how you may think you have the gift of writing, but not too many people have the gift of reading?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Exactly. We need to lay hands on those people and give them the gift of reading.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: Right. Give them the gift of reading. Now here’s the point that has to be emphasized. You look at church history. Church history teaches us you don’t need freedom of religion to be faithful. To prove that, ask the martyrs.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yes.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: When Luther stood at the Diet or Worms. It is Worms. It isn’t actually worms. There are those who think that there’s a diet of worms, but by the way, that diet really works. The diet of worms.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Because you won’t eat it.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: When he stood there at the Diet of Worms, and said, “My conscience is taken captive by the word of God. I cannot and I will not recant. So help me, God.” He was to be put to death. Now, he wasn’t, for some very fascinating, fascinating reasons, but he expected to be put to death. And if you read his prayer before he made that declaration, it gives you the chills. He’s saying, “Oh God, where are you going to be when I’m going to be on the rack?” There are those who say, “Well, I don’t feel God close to me.” The night before he said that Luther felt as if God had abandoned him, but he went through it anyway based on God’s bare word, and he stood there and he’s willing to take the heat. And you think of the people who are being martyred today, in many countries, especially the Middle East, North Korea and so forth, and they are saying to us, “You don’t need freedom of religion in order to be faithful. You just need to pay the price of faithfulness.”
|
||||
|
||||
Now, I have to ask you young men, and you’re much younger than I am, though I won’t estimate by how much, but I have to ask you, is the American church ready for that? Are we ready to take the heat? A school teacher in Chicago, and I talk about this in my book, he said he was told it is not enough if you simply tolerate same sex marriage, if you don’t celebrate it, you could lose your job. Well, that’s a line in the sand. Now, he has a wife and kids to take care of. What’s he going to do? But there has to come a time when Christians say, “I’m willing to take this stand. I’m willing to take the hit.” And then the church has to step up and say, “How can we help these believers? How can we help them financially, and in other ways, because they are paying the price of faithfulness, and we need to stand together.”
|
||||
|
||||
And that’s the challenge of the church going forward. I really do think that in America we are much further down the line of what I’ve just described than many people realize, even than I realize, because we’re headed in a wrong direction and it’s happening very fast. Take the whole transgender situation. I mean, this is to the point of absurdity, but nonetheless, having turned away from God, we are plunging in the wrong direction with horrible consequences. But here we are, and God has brought us to this moment. God has said, “You’re living during this era, and I’m going to be with you and I’m going to sustain you, but don’t think that you’re going to have a comfortable ride all the way to the finish line.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: That’s a great point. I think that the persecution that is heating up in America, as it has been in many other countries for centuries and for decades recently, we’re just beginning to feel it. But I really do feel like, Dr. Lutzer, that it’s going to purify the church, cause her to say, “Wait. What do I really believe? What am I willing to do for my faith?” And, thinking about prophecy things, Hebrews 10:25 says that, “Not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, but to encourage one another all the more as we see the day approaching.” And so perhaps this pressure that you speak of is going to cause the church to say, “We need to bond together and build each other up now more than ever before.”
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: That’s a very optimistic statement, but you and I know that throughout history, God has sometimes allowed persecution that has actually destroyed the church. I wrote a book entitled The Cross In The Shadow of the Crescent. It’s about Islam. And I wrote it because when I was in Turkey, visiting the seven churches of Revelation, I discovered that there are no churches, there only mosques. And our Muslim guide said to me, “This is proof of the superiority of Islam. Islam can crush the church.” And this made me troubled because it made Jesus look weak.
|
||||
|
||||
So I asked God for wisdom as to what these non-existent churches have to say to the American church. And that’s why I wrote the book entitled The Cross In The Shadow Of The Crescent. But in the last chapter of the book that we’re talking about right now, We Will Not Be Silenced, you already referenced the words of Jesus to the church in Sardis, “Strengthen what remains.” And what I do in that chapter as I go through and I write what I think Jesus might say to the church today, the church in America, and Jesus said, “You think that you’re alive, but you’re actually dead.” But here’s the challenge that every single believer needs to hear right now.In that same letter, Jesus said, “But you still have some people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments. And they will walk with me in white for they are worthy.” Wow.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: And you gentlemen, as you challenge the church today, and we can talk about prophecy and all the other things, but as you challenge them, let them know that God always has a remnant, even in an apostate churches during the period of time, there’s always a remnant who are still those who have not soiled their garments in the world. And one of the problems of course, with the Sardis church is they no longer saw the world as an enemy. And Jesus says to them, “You will walk with me in white for you are worthy.” So, let’s be among those who are faithful.
|
||||
|
||||
I’m often asked, “What does faithfulness look like? What should we do?” And I have to tell you, gentlemen, that really everyone has to answer that question for himself or herself. For some people, it means quitting their vocation because they don’t want to go along with the culture. They don’t want to write a letter that confesses and repents of the fact that they are white, whiteness.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Right.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: And so for them, it may mean drawing the line there. On the other hand, for the mother who’s home today with her children, her first responsibility is to them, teaching them, guiding them, praying for them. That’s faithfulness to her. So each of us has our own answer to the question of what is faithfulness. For you men, it means warning the church, instructing the church. It means standing for truth and taking the consequences. So we all have to answer that question, but we’re living in a time when there is no place to hide. The simple fact is the culture is closing in on us, legally, morally, spiritually. The attacks are coming from everywhere.
|
||||
|
||||
And Christians who think that they can continue to be silent, suddenly discover that, “I’m going to have to declare myself or simply submit to the culture.”
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amazing information. My mind’s going about eight different directions right now. And it’s also pivoting towards the prophecy side. As you mentioned, this is a show on prophecy and eschatology. So if we could pivot there with all this stage setting, and you mentioned the church at Sardis and Jeff and I have talked about the church of Laodicea and how the similarities are with the end time church. How much of this do you feel is stage setting for the future tribulation period? And what would you say to believers who, because we’re pre-trib, we talk to a lot of people about the strength of the pre-trib view. We want people to be encouraged by that, but at the same time Jeff and I have been saying the same thing you are, in that we think some dark times are coming, that people need to be prepared for. So how can we encourage people through Bible prophecy and how do you see all this as stage setting for the future tribulation period?
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: All right. Let me take the last part of your question first, the stage setting, and then we’ll talk about getting through it.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Yeah.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: You and I know, me especially, who’s a little older, we used to attend prophecy conferences and we had different views regarding Revelation 13, the mark of the beast, what it was going to be. But I have to tell you without at all becoming sensational, because when it comes to prophecy, I’ve always said it’s best to say much too little than a little too much, because there haven’t been people out there who have made predictions.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Right.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: By the way, young men, I used to have a book in my library entitled The End Times Are Here Again. So we have to be very cautious when it comes to date setting and all.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Absolutely.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: But it is absolutely clear to me how this can now work, where you can be canceled, even in my book, We Will Not Be Silenced, I talk briefly about the end time, there is talk about getting everybody a digital certificate to prove that you’ve been vaccinated against COVID, and this digital certificate is going to be used. It’ll have a lot of your information. And then I have an actual quote from the World Health Organization in my book that speaks about the fact that if we see something nefarious, that’s not the word that’s used, but that’s the idea, we can simply delete the person.
|
||||
|
||||
So, obviously we’re moving toward a cashless society. We’re almost there, actually. And when that happens, if you don’t fit the bill, you’re deleted, and you can’t argue with a computer. And if you can see what’s happening in China today, you’ve probably done a little bit of reading about that and the surveillance culture, that’s coming here. In fact, it’s coming here in ways that we don’t even know about, where all this information about us is being collected and eventually can be held against us.
|
||||
|
||||
So Revelation 13 really has very little mystery as to how this could be done. It could be done within a matter of weeks, actually, with the cash being created. The Fed, when they create money, they just move some zeros on a computer. So that being said, now, how do we combat it? Well, you have to go back to the 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation. How did they overcome him? By the word of their testimony and by the blood of the lamb.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Amen.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: Now that did not keep them from martyrdom necessarily, but what it meant was faithfulness to the very end. And one of the things that we have to ask ourselves is this? Do we have faith, at what point would we be willing to submit under pressure? There are Christians today who are asking that question and answering it in very different ways. If you ever read Fox’s Book Of Martyrs, you know that he talks about families who were told, “If you don’t deny the faith, we’re going to torture your children.” And they did not deny the faith. And they urged their children to be true to the faith, even to the point of death.
|
||||
|
||||
I don’t know that we have that here in America. In America, that is not happening yet. We are not thrown into jail. We are being canceled, and I want to make a prophecy. I’m not one of these people who makes these prophecies that later on have to be regretted, so I could be wrong, because I’m not the son of a prophet. That which is canceled today is going to be criminalized tomorrow. So I think that’s where we’re going. And the whole burden that I have, and that I know you have is, is the church ready to pay the price, and to do so joyfully? Knowing, as Jesus said, “Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and say all manner of evil against you falsely for my name’s sake. Great shall be your reward in heaven.”
|
||||
|
||||
Are we there? Or have we been so complacent with comfortable Christianity that we will fail the final test?
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Dr. Lutzer, as you’re talking, just all these scriptures and stories and principles are just popping in my head. There’s a wealth of wisdom in this book called We Will Not Be Silenced. Dr. David Jeremiah says, “If I could I would put this book into the hands of every Christian in America.” And this question popped into my mind, Dr. Lutzer, as you were talking just now, to ask believers and those who are listening to this broadcast, what will it take to shut you up about your faith? What’s it going to take? How much pressure would it take to cause you to say, “I’m done with this. I’m not going to talk about Jesus anymore.” And immediately I thought about Peter and John in Acts 4:20, when brought before the religious leaders of their day, essentially the cancel culture of their day, They said, “We cannot stop speaking about the things that we have seen and heard.”
|
||||
|
||||
And I guess the question, Dr. Lutzer, to our listeners would be, “What have you seen? What have you heard? What have you experienced with God through His word and your relationship with Him? Are those the kinds of things that compel you to not stop speaking about the glorious Jesus and the wonderful Lord that we serve?” And your book, Dr. Lutzer, does such a great job. It’s called We Will Not Be Silenced. And it is a must read. I’m with Todd. I’m going to finish it on the plane this weekend down to Houston.
|
||||
|
||||
But tell our listeners right now, Dr. Lutzer, how can people get ahold of this book? And maybe just a little bit more about your ministry as we close out?
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: Well, as far as the book is concerned, they can go to Amazon. They can also go to Christian Books. As a matter of fact, Christian Books has now a 50% discount for the book that we’re talking about, We Will Not Be Silenced. If they want to know more about our media ministry, I suggest that they go to the Moody Church Media Ministry. The media ministry is different than the church website. They can go to MCM, Moody Church Media. Hey, by the way, they can go to mcmoffer, now, that’s all one word, mcmoffer.com, and for a gift of any amount, they can get the book. And that would help, of course, our ministry.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Nice.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: Mcm.com. I need to tell you that I’ve transitioned from Moody Church a number of years ago, but our media ministry is in three different languages, in 20 different countries, and it has been growing every single year. So if people want to help us they can go to mcmoffer, Moody Church, MCM, of course, standing for Moody Church Media, mcmoffer.com. God bless you. And thank you so much for having me on today.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: Thank you, Dr. Lutzer.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Thank you so much for joining us. It’s been an honor and we’ll be sure to put those links on the website when we push this episode out as well. Thank you so much for joining us. Our heads are swimming with information and we can’t wait to see how this plays out. And as people have to really choose their own line in the sand. How far am I going to be pushed? Where’s my line going to be when I stand for truth? We all are coming on at a time when we’ve got to make that decision. Thank you so much, Dr. Lutzer.
|
||||
|
||||
Erwin: Thank you. And God bless you.
|
||||
|
||||
Todd: Did you know, you can find the Prophecy Pros on the Edifi Network? That’s right. We’re there now. And we’re getting massive exposure. So cool. It’s E-D-I-F-I, the Edifi Network. Check it out, subscribe and listen with other podcasts as well on that great network.
|
||||
|
||||
Jeff: And as always, we want to thank Harvest House Publishers for making this possible. We could not do this without them.
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S3E9: Spiritual Warfare and End-Time Deception.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[TRAILER: Prophecy Pros Podcast Season 3.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E10: Clearing the Confusion.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E11: Fear Factor.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E12: Final Great Awakening.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E1: Back to Basics.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E2: What is Premillennialism?.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E3: Life in the Millennial Kingdom.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E4: What is the New Jerusalem?.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E5: Tim Moore: Heeding the Word of God.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E6: Will Heaven Be Boring?.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E7: Christian R&R (Rapture & Return).mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E8: Erwin Lutzer: Pastors, Prophecy, and Perspective.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S4E9: Living Courageously During Difficult Times.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E10: Revelation Pt. 6: The Literal Return of the King.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E11: Revelation Pt. 7: Your Future Home in Heaven.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E12: What is the Last Trumpet?.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E1: Gauging the Times.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E2: Why Hasn’t the Lord Come Yet?.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E3: Michele Bachmann: Living and Leading in the Day of Delusion.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E4: You Are Not Alone.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E5: Revelation Pt. 1.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E6: Revelation Pt. 2.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E7: Revelation Pt. 3: The Antichrist and the False Prophet.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E8: Revelation Pt. 4: The Bowl Judgments.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S5E9: Revelation Pt. 5: A Sneak Peek at Antichrist’s Headquarters.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E10: Jesus on the Apocalypse Pt. 1.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E11: Jesus on the Apocalypse Pt. 2.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E12: Jesus on the Apocalypse Pt. 3.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E1: Why Do Most Churches Avoid Teaching Prophecy?.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E2: Does It Really Matter If I Have a View on Bible Prophecy?.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E3: Presenting the Gospel Through Prophecy.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E4: Nathan Jones: The Mighty Angels of Revelation.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E5: Russia and Bible Prophecy.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E6: Donna VanLiere: Daniel’s Final Week.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E7: Amir Tsarfati: An Insider’s View of Prophecy and Israel.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E8: Persecution and Martyrdom in the Last Days.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
@ -1,4 +0,0 @@
|
||||
![[S6E9: Doug Hershey: Jerusalem Rising.mp3]]
|
||||
|
||||
---
|
||||
|
||||
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